Ingeus

[Mr.P]

They then questioned me about my CV,[...]They even said they " I should send my CV to them over email but they wont have time to look over it until I come back".

When asked to sign the papers, I declined. They were a little stunned. His eyes nearly popped out and there was a small silence in the room. Awkward. However, I stuck to my guns and to be fair, the adviser accepted my choice without too much prompting and was really respectful, although they reminded me I had to accept any mandatory invitations they might send out to me.

 

By having a copy of your email, they can claim that you gave "implied consent" to them processing & storing your personal data - i.e. They think they will have the right to spam your CV to any/all companies without your consent. Keep control of your job applications rather than being pushed in to an unsuitable NMW contract.

 

Declining to sign their paperwork is a small step in reminding them that you are an individual and that you have expectations. Hopefully you took the opportunity to tell them that you require correct procedure to be followed if they mandate you to do anything.

[Mr.P]

I bet a pound to a penny that you don't get an apology nor even notification that the doubt has been cancelled.

 

Once the mess has been cleared up and Ingeus has demonstrated a complete failure of internal communication, I'd follow it up with a formal complaint to the head of DWP Work Programme. Point out that as a consequence of the WP provider raising vexatious benefit doubts as a result of gross incompetence within Ingeus, the DWP is incurring a significant cost in dealing with appeals.

[Mr.P]

There's some great material here: theworkfoundation.com/Reports (

 

Follow the money and look at who is behind the organisation - Claiming links with a University is a tenuous way to lend credibility to "reports" peddling the aims of a "think tank".

 

I have no intention of wading through countless "reports" from that particular group - However, if there is a single document you seek commentary on, then I may consider reading it.

[Mr.P]

the sub provider has asked me to print off all emails i have received from employers,

 

If you do print off the emails, I'd hope you obfuscate any email/personal information and pay heed to any copyright/disclosure notice that a company may have appended to emails.

[Mr.P]

But as my advisor is bloody useless and talks to me like a 5 year old, then i do have a problem! i am on my 3rd advisor and all have been as useless as each other. and all have spoken to me like a 5 year old.

 

One so called "adviser" I had would spend half his time mumbling or banging away at a keyboard with his back to me. Got to the stage where I had to tell him "Sit up straight boy and stop mumbling...". After that, he would take every opportunity to run off to get his backside wiped by his "manager".

 

In short: You want to treat me as a child, you can expect the same in return (AND I will record everything !)

[Mr.P]

The 104 weeks should start from the time of your initial appointment with Ingeus and went through their induction programme. The six weeks of temporary employment can be counted as a "Mandatory Work Activity" in place of having to do "voluntary" placements at the likes of Poundland. So if the "adviser" has been doing his/her job properly, this six week period should count as part of your 104 week sentence (DWP WP guidance notes should cover this). Notice to the provider regarding exit reports should be sent out by the DWP automatically, so it could be that your end date is down as August 21st.

 

I would suggest going in with any job search records at the bottom of the pile and insist on an exit review with immediate effect. Point out that the 104 week clock started ticking from the date of the first appointment and any temp work is to be counted as MWA - By the time your "adviser" has got his/her arse in to gear, any job search records will have been forgotten about. You may need to be forceful to get a result, but as always, record the conversation.

 

The next step is high risk as it could lead to a failure to attend sanction:

Point out (in clear and uncertain terms) that as you consider the 104 week attachment to be at an end, any further "appointments" are entirely voluntary. As a consequence, you expect to be compensated for time and expenses (say £50 min). Decline any further contact unless compensation is offered.

 

I did something very similar a couple of years back with A4e and picked up a sanction for my efforts - The silly harpie made the mistake of issuing the paperwork after I had signed off, so it had zero effect on me.

Edited June 18, 2013 by Mr.P

[Mr.P]

Maybe when you get your exit report you could let us all know what sort of information about us Ingeus will be passing back to the DWP? I'm sure they're going to be a LOT more careful about personal statements when they know we can read what they've put.

 

Also be interesting to see if the exit report sent to the DWP matches the version handed over - A Subject Access Request filed with the DWP should be quite revealing.

[Mr.P]

Partly tempted to go the pub beforehand to ease the pain.

 

Be careful doing that - If you go in to one of these "mock interviews" reeking of beer, you could be labelled as "having a drink problem". This could result in you being pushed towards an alcohol dependency support group and parked even further out (which in its self may not be a bad thing).

[Mr.P]

still have 15 CVs to drop off as haven't the busfare to travel too far a field

 

Hang on to the bus tickets you have already purchased and then ask for a refund. Point out that DWP guidance states that you should not be out of pocket for undertaking activities assigned to by a WP provider.

[Mr.P]

Lorise: It certainly sounds as if your "adviser" is being spiteful and has little regard for your circumstances - If you do lodge a complaint, make sure a copy goes to the DWP as well as to the providers head office.

 

I've also had first hand experience of a "little hitler":

Harpie: You will do what I tell you to do.

Me: (after a long pause and a very hard Paddington Bear stare) Little missy, you ask, and I may do after careful consideration.

 

Result: A "sanction" raised for declining to sign a worthless document, a task that wasn't even mandatory. Oh, and I never did see the little .... again.

[Mr.P]

Hi new to the forum, just wondering ive been at injeus at the preston office for 2 years and 2 weeks and im still getting hassled by my advisor i didnt get an exit review..just told that im all skilled up now ect...but now im getting more hassle than before..forcing me to take security jobs miles away..ect..and being left random missed calls off him and an interview nearly everyweek..what shall i do..? is this normal after 2 years or do i have an advisor trying to get me sanctioned ect..

 

The Work Programme is for 104 weeks, if you have already completed the sentence without any breaks, they should no longer be contacting you. I would suggest writing to your Job Centre and asking for conformation of the end date, stating that you believe it was two weeks ago. Once you have it in writing, feel free to use what ever language you feel is appropriate towards the Ingeus "adviser" should they call again.

[Mr.P]

Hi just a bit of advise i wrote on here the other day about my 104 weeks being up and still getting hassled by the idiots at injeus/dump..i am tootaly ****ed off today due to the fact i wasnt feeling well due to a mass migraine/sickness i had a family member phone them up to tell them i was going to miss an lousy appointment today due to being ill, then the pratt asks to speak to me,when im clearly not well...idiot...then when i finally go on the phone after feeling crap going on it, he starts going on about me having to ring the jobcentre up and telling them to fill out a form and that they will send off one also..whats all this about now ?

 

You'll want to fill in a JSA-28 for the Job Centre records (see attached), this can be used as "just cause" should the provider try to raise a sanction for failing to attend their appointment.

[Mr.P]

If your WP appointment was "mandatory" (i.e. You had a letter, not a text, email, or phone call to say you must attend), then I'd recommend filling in the JSA28 and posting it to your local JCP. Keep a copy for your own records, and if the WP provider tries to hit you with a Failure To Attend sanction, you have some defence.

If you are well enough to attend your regular signing on appointment at the JCP, all well and good - You have covered your back.

[Mr.P]

I was asked to keep a diary of my job search this week. It's like being back at school, only more patronising.

 

Yup. Had that myself. Would use initials & abbreviations for company names - Got told "we need more detail", so I started logging time spent on the loo as well as every nauseating detail of my daily job search. Then it was "we want a typed log", phhhtttt.

[Mr.P]

Plus, of course, there is no specific legislative enabler which could result in you providing any confidential information on any vacancy that you have applied for (such as names of individuals, telephone numbers) which would be at conflict with Data Protection Legislation.

 

A long time ago, I did have some JCP "adviser" telling me that if they asked (nay, demanded) copies of letters to/from a prospective employer, I would have to produce them - Asked at the time how this demand could be reconciled with the Data Protection Act and personal privacy..... Never got an answer.

 

As for the harpie demanding a typed log - She threw her toys out of the pram that day and had a hissy fit, that was the last I ever saw of her. I don't do child care, and I have no intention of going back to change her nappies and/or wipe her snotty little nose.

[Mr.P]

I have no intention of pestering potential employers with "follow up" phone calls for that reason, and your reason.

 

My argument has always been that such activity could be construed as harassment and thus a criminal offence under at least two pieces of legislation - This is also the view I take with these so called "telesales" jobs.

[Mr.P]

I have been given 10 items for ways to look for work and I also said I would not cold call employers yet she has still crossed telephoning. I can't talk to anyone without going into floods of tears. I have been put down for travelling 90 minutes and a start time of 7.30 and a 40 hour week.

 

The JCP adviser should have explained the Universal Jobmatch to you in detail and made you aware of the cookies - This guidance is clearly given in the Universal Jobmatch Toolkit which the adviser should be familiar with. A couple of cautionary notes about the UJ - Personal data that you provide is stored overseas and is not subject to UK protection (despite whatever JCP/DWP staff tell you), a significant number of the "jobs" advertised are skimmed from other sites and a few are bogus.... If you turn cookies off in your browser (and clear the history), attempt to create an account and you'll get a wonderfully cryptic error message - Print off a screenshot and hand this in as "evidence" of using the UJ site.

 

You do realise that if offered a job with a 07:30 start, you would need to be out of the house and travelling by 06:00. Not many areas have a reliable public transport network that works this early (you don't tell the JCP that you have a car ). As you have already signed this Jobseeker Agreement, you are bound by the terms and conditions set out. If the adviser did not explain the UJ site in detail (which it sounds like she didn't), or ignored any health restrictions, you have reasonable grounds to write to the DWP and ask for it to be referred to a Decision Maker - Tell them that you were pressured to sign under duress, point out the areas where your circumstances were ignored, and certainly insist that available hours are adjusted to suit you (enclosing bus timetables if need be).

 

Don't ever tell them that you have a car, internet, email address, or mobile phone - These all cost money, being unemployed means having to make savings

 

 

Boot note: I limited available hours to 09:00-18:00 and refused to work with chemicals. Now work part time, sometimes finishing at 06:00, more often around 21:00 - My choice, not some pen pushing "adviser".

Edited July 6, 2013 by Mr.P

[Mr.P]

how do you turn off cookies?

 

Depends on what browser you use - This page appears to cover most http://www.aboutcookies.org/page-1 common ones.

 

If I get some jumped up KnowItAll you thinks he/she is the king of tech support, I'll throw in a curve ball and say I use Lynx. That usually knocks them down a peg or two.

Edited July 6, 2013 by Mr.P

[Mr.P]

It's very difficult to keep your wits about you on looking at everything they put in front of you when they go so fast and won't listen to your problems, they are not excuses, but your made to feel they are. She also said to me that there were a lot of "admin Jobs" out there and I replied "can you tell me where".

 

Sat in front of one of those advisers that asked me how many times I check my emails and use the internet - Foolishly said almost daily, which was promptly transcribed into my JSAg as "Will search online daily". WhooppieDo.... As soon as my internet connection goes down for a few days, I run the risk of a sanction. The last time I was asked the same question, the answer was "Sometimes I use the internet, but only when I'm near a working computer."

 

As for admin jobs - Sure, plenty being advertised round here, but the majority are regurgitated ads from agencies with the promise of zero hour contracts and little chance of real work. (some) JCP staff have a very blinkered view of the job market and only look as far as their work terminal - That will all change when they themselves fall victim to the upcoming Universal Credit regime (if they claim tax credits). Next time you get told "there are plenty of xxx jobs out there", ask (demand ?) printouts of genuine vacancies that you can get to, provide a reasonable wage, and are not via an agency. If you are lucky, a couple may turn up.

[Mr.P]

If you need advice on training, review the courses offered via your local Colleges/Universities, and if you need to discuss options, arrange a meeting with a tutor for one of your courses.

 

Also worth looking at your local council web site (not Adult Education) - Some offer real training and you may find one or two courses available at discounted rates.

 

For the benefit of Starguitar - Sign nothing, admit to nothing, and on top of demanding copies of all paperwork, record everything. Whilst a very small minority find some value in these W.P. providers, the majority get nothing but trouble. Over the last two years, 132,000 people got a job (no statistics on hours, or length of job) out of some 1,200,000 - That is just one out of every ten.

[Mr.P]

Yes, I agree those stats don`t make for good reading and do not give me a great feeling about the prospect of attending and giving them access to my personal situation to gain employment via their channels. With regards to the sign nothing, admit to nothing etc will this be a big problem. Do they have a rule where you need to sign anything to comply with the JSA requirements. Its not an ideal situation for me if I am sanctioned so was looking to avoid that if possible. However I am very unwilling to be signing up to schemes it they are forced upon me especially if I do not think they are taking me in the right direction. I have read earlier in this thread that people have been refusing to sign the data release form or usually handing in notice that they aren`t allowing date release and for all personal data to be returned to stop the scheme functioning like it should do.

 

You can not be mandated to sign anything - This is the "official" stance of the DWP (at the expense of repeating myself), see: https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/refuse_to_sign

The response: www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/115323/response/308770/attach/2/FoI%201886%2031.08.12.pdf indicates that "signing of a Work Programme provider’s action plan and/or agreement form are entirely voluntary and no sanctions would be applied to any claimant who refused to sign them"

 

Refusing the data release has nothing to do with causing the WP scheme to fail but controlling where your data goes. Do you really want your CV distributed to any mickymouse outfit that might have a job for you, even if it is at the other end of the country for 16 hours per week ? Hell, they may even put you forward for a job that you find repugnant - Should the application succeed and you are offered the job, turn it down and you get a sanction. As long as you have control of your personal information, you get to decide when and where to send it.

 

By all means, show them you have a CV, but don't let them retain a copy - It could be seen as "giving implied consent". They may be able to suggest improvements, but based on my own experience, criticism is all you can expect. Don't expect any real training either - To quote one WP "adviser" - "We are a private company and do not fund training. [...] If you get offered a job that is dependant on gaining a specific qualification, we may reconsider". All on tape (with her consent), so no denying the exchange.

[Mr.P]

Once the DWP have any personal information about a client, be it a phone number through to medical records, they can pass it on to a WP provider - Under the Work Programme contract, the DWP remain the data controller and the provider is the data processor. Unfortunately, the only way to prevent a WP provider from doing what they like with your data is to refuse to hand it over to the DWP from day one of your claim.

 

Refusing to sign a providers data waiver limits what they can do in contacting an employer or redistributing any data that you subsequently provide. It won't stop them from matching you up to any vacancies/schemes, but they should leave you to follow up with an application.

[Mr.P]

Have you been "mandated" for this activity along with the prescribed wording ?

 

If not, send them a note instructing them to reschedule at a more convenient time & date - No need to give a reason.

Else fill in a JSA28 and get it in to your local JCP office as soon as possible and then inform the provider that due to (an unspecified) illness you will not be attending - Inform them that a JSA28 has been submitted and any attempt to raise a sanction will be viewed as vexatious.

[Mr.P]

Been here before, but still worth repeating. If the letter does not contain all of the following:

If you do not undertake the activities required in this notification your benefit could be affected.

When you take part in the Work Programme, you are taking part in a scheme established by law under the Jobseeker’s Allowance (Schemes for Assisting Persons to Obtain Employment) Regulations

2013.

 

If without a good reason you fail to attend or participate in the Work Programme your Jobseeker’s Allowance and National Insurance credits will be stopped (or will be paid at a reduced rate, depending on your circumstances) for:

 

 

• four weeks; or
  
• 13 weeks, if DWP have previously decided on one or more occasions that your JSA should be sanctioned because you failed to comply with your Work Programme requirements, or you committed any of the failures listed below within 52 weeks (but not within two weeks) of your last failure.
  

 

The failures referred to are, if without a good reason, you:

 

 

• fail to attend an adviser interview
  
• if applicable, fail to take part in a particular employment programme (such as the work programme)
  
• do not take the opportunity of a place on an employment programme or training scheme
  
• refuse or fail to apply for or accept a place on such a programme or scheme notified to you by your adviser
  
• fail to attend or give up a place or through your own misconduct lose a place on such a programme or scheme
  
• fail to comply with a Jobseeker’s Direction.
  

Without the above text, you only need to tell them that you won't be attending.

[Mr.P]

would texting them be ok to as im not very confident on phones?

[...]

if so would you send the text to the number they text the reminder to you on?

 

If they consider it a good enough means of contacting you, it would be reasonable to assume texting them would be acceptable. If they also use email, that is another alternative..

 

Which ever method you use, keep a copy so you can present it if they try to claim "you didn't tell us".