RCI want me to relinquish my car and won't accept my payments - advice required!

[traceyb71]

Hi, to cut a long story short, I missed two payments back in Nov/Dec last year. I sorted this out with them shortly after and my usual payments were reinstated. All of a sudden they stopped taking the DD and am now told they have repudiated the agreement and FRADS now want me to voluntarily relinquish my car to sell at auction. I have less than 1yr to go on the finance. They basically want the full remaining balance, just short of £3,000 or they will go to court for a return of goods order. I have tried reasoning with them but they simply will not budge!! I have offered to pay additional monies on top of the regular payment to clear the arrears, which in fact are only £518 but again, they will not do so and say that once an agreement has been repudiated they will not reinstate it. The chap at FRADS was really good, he's given me 1wk to try and refinance in order to settle the debt but to be honest this is not hopeful now RCI have served me a default notice!! Is there anything I can do about this, I don't want my car to have be sold at auction when I know they will only want to get the £3k left on the finance. I am flabergasted at how unreasonable these people are being. I did write to them with the repayment plan and of course, they are saying they never received it. When I stated that I had not in fact received the default notice they say they sent they didn't give a damn quite frankly and just said they had sent it, I said basically I had sent them a letter, as far as I was concerned they received it, taking their own stance. The stress is putting me under immense pressure, honestly how do they think I am going to find almost £3K when I couldn't find £518 - ridiculous. Advice much appreciated.

[fighting bull]

Hi, what sort of agreement is it please, have they use the term volntarily relinquish, If so it may be a motor loan, they can't if you paid them the NOD amount this would cease any activity, if they tried and repo the car after you have paid, it woudl be classed as an illegal repo and you would be owed all of the finance you have paid back and the vehicle. My advice forget about who did what with the Default, focus on paying the default amount to satisfy the NOD. Who stopped the DD, i really could do with a look at the finance agreement, if you can scan it on, remove the finance comp details and your details. Anything you send make it recorded delivery, and when it comes to the payment for the NOD value then dont send a cheque, pay it by DC, on therr automated pay system if they have one, if not call them and make the payment if they refuse or decline to accept you paying the NOD amount without any charges they cannot do this legally, refuse a payment or offer of payment. Any Judge would see this as them been totally unreasonable specifically when you are offering or are clearly showing you are trying to resolve the matter, a judge would not be impressed with it going for a ROG order on that basis, which leads me to beleive it again is a motor loan, if they try you can counter claim for costs incurred.

[traceyb71]

Hi, thanks for your response. Yes, it is vehicle finance. What is NOD? I have paid all bar 8mths of a 60mth term which is why I'm so p***ed off about the whole darn thing. Like I said, I have offered to increase the payments which would clear it at the end of the 60th month and they won't even consider. They insist that they have repudiated the agreement and will only accept one of the following: a) voluntarily relinquish the car to sell at auction, b) settle the remaining balance or c) they will apply to Court for a return of goods order.

 

The liklihood of my being able to refinance for the remaining balance of £2953.87 is practically nil! I really can't be without a car as this buggers me up regarding work/childcare etc. Do you know if when they apply to the Court for a return of goods order one can defend it?

[fighting bull]

Hi, my apologies Notice of Default, it sounds like the agreement is a motor loan if it is then you own the vehicle and more so over 50% of the vehicle given what you have paid, and the only avenue they have would be to go for a ROG order. You have the right to see any documentation claiming they have repudiated the agreement and on what grounds, in which case you could say that you dont owe them anything further untill they take you to court, however this would not be in your best interest. You can defend the ROG. Dont worry about re financing, out of the question at the moment. I would call/or write to them and forewarn them you will defend any action they consider taking against you. Approximately 75% of the arrears if you can pay would be 388.00 minus any charges. Any reasonable company would/should accept the 75% and split the remainign arrears without charges over a period of months to mutually benefit both parties. Failing this or they refuse make sure you keep a record of all names dates times of calls, you could advise you are recording the call , they will possibly claim that you cant without there consent , in fact all you need to do is advise them your are recording the call so long as you make them aware they should not obstruct you doing this unless they have justified reason for you doing so. Ask them the question outright is this a motor loan or a Bill of sale or another type of finance agreement, make sure you have written down what you ask them and there response accordingly if you are not recording it, if they start banging on about charges tell them you will only consider the charges at the end of the contract and before closing the call advise you will only deal with them in writing from that point on wards and they should correspond with you in writing only. If they then persist in calling excessive after you have notified them to do this you can counter claim breach of OFT debt collection guidelines, breach of csa guidelines and breach of and CCA

[traceyb71]

Thanks. I have spoken to someone today about the court proceedings. They were as baffled as me as to why RCI would not accept my offer of payment on so little of the remaining term! I have, on the advice, drafted a letter to RCI asking them to reconsider and again, setting out my offer of repayment. The chap I spoke to this morning said in his opinion they wouldn't get the return of goods order as there is so little of the term left and I am offering to pay the remainder over 8mths, which would be when the initial agreement ends anyway. I have also asked in the letter if they would consider using the court mediation service, however, I'm not sure if their application for a ROG Order would come under the small claims procedure, in any event, I have said I am prepared to use the mediation service. I am not going to call them now, they won't budge when you speak to them anyway so you get nowhere and are left feeling suicidally stressed out by them!! They don't listen to you, don't use their common sense about individual situations. However, I am not looking forward to attending Court, I work for a local firm of solicitors and there will inevitably be someone from my office at Court on the day no doubt!!

[Ell-enn]

Hi there, any letter you sent to them should be sent by recorded delivery (keep a copy of the letter), so you can print off the signature receipt from the royalmail website and keep with your copy of the letter. If they apply to court for a return of goods order you don't necessarily need to attend court - you will be able to send in a defence when you get the court claim.

 

We can help you with any defence. If they won't accept your payments - keep the money to one side so you can show the court you are not refusing to pay and have the funds to do so.

[traceyb71]

Thank you soooo much, when all this happened last night I felt utterly hopeless, having now read other comments on here and your wonderfully helpful replies I feel like I might actually get somewhere here!! I have just returned from the post office, having sent said letter via recorded delivery, I will also fax this when I am at work tomorrow. I had to take today as 'emergency leave' to try and deal with it. Here's the text of the letter to them, let me know what you think, I shall use some of the reasons in this letter in my defence should the matter end up in Court, which hopefully, and according to the helpline people I spoke to this morning, go in my favour!!

 

I write regarding to the above agreement and further to my conversation on 17th May 2011 with your Kelly. As discussed, I attach herewith a further copy of the letter to you dated 28th April 2011 which you say you have not received. As a point of note, this letter was in fact collected from my place of work by the Royal Mail together with the firm’s post.

You will see from the attached letter my offer of payment. I do not deny that the account was in arrears by two month’s payments but to my knowledge, this matter had in fact been dealt with when I spoke to your Lorraine/Lauren (I don’t recall which) back in March.

You will note that in March I completed an expenditure form with your staff member. This was based on my sole income, and not jointly with my husband. From this, it was found that there was only £24 available at the end of each month, thus you would not, as a responsible lender, enter into any repayment ‘plan’. I recall discussing with your staff member that I had one or two small ‘debts’ which were due to finish and it would be at this stage that I would be able to increase the payments. As far as I was concerned that is what would happen. The direct debit was reinstated and I thought no more of it until the April direct debit was not collected from my account.

In your letter to me dated 13th April 2011 you state “we refer to the default notice previously sent to you in connection with the above agreement”, I reiterate what I stated to your Kelly on 17th April 2011 that I absolutely did not receive any such default notice, I can assure you that had I done so I would have dealt with it which would presumably not have led to the situation I now find myself in. You also state “there may be further sums due from you under the Agreement and we will write to you about these in due course.” I waited for a letter from you as stated but did not receive anything, therefore it was at that juncture that I wrote the letter previously referred to and annexed hereto.

It was not until I received a telephone message from FRADS that I was aware of any action being taken. I cannot express my shock when I spoke to _____________ from FRADS, that RCI were requesting that I voluntarily relinquish my vehicle or settle the outstanding balance of £2,953.87. I then contacted you and spoke with Kelly. It was at this point I was advised that you had not received my letter of 28th April. After a lengthy discussion I once again offered payment. Unfortunately, you would not accept my payments despite my repeated offers. The agreement term ends I believe in January 2012. My offer of payment will have settled the account at the end of the term.

It is unlikely I will be able to refinance in order to settle the full balance of £2,953.78. This in any event, even if I were able, would only serve to increase the amount payable on a loan, increasing debt, which is not ideal.

I would respectively request that you take a reasonable view to the situation and give proper consideration to my offer of payment as set out below (I can assure you that the amount proposed is affordable, as previously stated, I now have the disposable funds to pay the additional amount each month) and please reinstate the direct debit which will, as previously stated, clear the account as it would have done at the end of the agreement term.

MONTH

AMOUNT PAID

BALANCE REMAINING

May 2011

£350

£2,603.87

June 2011

£350

£2,253.87

July 2011

£350

£1,903.87

August 2011

£350

£1,553.87

September 2011

£350

£1,203.87

October 2011

£350

£853.87

November 2011

£350

£503.87

December 2011

£350

£153.87

January 2012

£153.87

£0.00

 

I will not voluntarily relinquish my vehicle. I work full time, and whilst I can use public transport to get to my place of work, during school holidays it is my mother that has care of my young daughter. My mother lives in a small village 8.4 miles from where I do. Whilst buses do run by the village, this will entail two buses to get there and two buses back to then get to work, again at the end of the day, totaling approximately 3 hours every day. If I have no sensible means to get my daughter there, I simply cannot work. This will mean that prior to the long summer holiday of approximately 6 weeks, I will have no option other than to leave my place of employment in order that I can stay at home with my daughter. My budget does not allow for £25 per day childcare facilities, this would be £125 per week. I do not wish this matter to go to Court. I reiterate once again that I am offering payment to clear the account within the term itself. Should you insist on applying to the Court for a Return of Goods Order it will be seen that I am offering to pay, and have never stated I would not pay, and thus I will request the Court suspend any Order. As the debt is less than £5,000, in an effort to avoid costly Court/solicitors fees, I should be grateful if you would consider using a mediation service, I would be agreeable to this initial course of action. This can be done by telephone, any mediator will not impose a solution or decision but will assist in trying to agree to a resolution between us. I confirm the cost of such mediation will be borne by myself (to a limit of £200).

I once again ask that you give due consideration to the above offer of payment and the use of a mediation service. I look forward to hearing from you as soon as possible.

[Ell-enn]

Hi there, good to see you've got the letter off to them. What date in May is the payment due?

[traceyb71]

Payments were always made on the 26th of the month, i.e. pay day. If I don't hear from them favourably I shall take your advice and set aside the amount of £350 in any event. I just wonder actually whether anyone is aware of sucessfully defending a Return of Goods Order, I tried googling this but didn't come up with anything?!?!

[postggj]

what agreement is this

 

hp

fixed sum loan

conditional sale

?????????

[traceyb71]

Hi, I assume it was a fixed sum, would have to dig out the agreement from my 'file'!! Basically, it was finance on car which they included payment protection insurance, the payments have remained the same from when it was taken out in January 2007 with a term of 60 months, there is less than 1yr to go which is why I find it ridiculous that they are being so unreasonable. In Sep/Oct of 2007 I was made redundant from my then very well paid job, although I was offered an alternative job with the same company it was at a massive reduction in salary, nevertheless I continued to make the payments until I ran into difficulty the end of last year. In the current economic climate I don't think that's bad at all to be honest and one would like to think these companies would bear this in mind! At the end of the day, I am not refusing to pay, I am practically begging to pay them but they won't accept or in fact discuss any such thing. I am hoping the Judge will see this as in my favour and advise them to accept my offer of payment. The payments I am offering will in fact clear the finance when it would have ended in any event, i.e. the 60th month being January 2012 so it's not like I am even asking for an extension or anything!!

[postggj]

if its a fixed sum loan agreement then they are blowing out their backside on a return of goods order

 

i very much doubt this will go any where near a court and if it does i can rustle up a defense to send them packing

 

keep money in the bank each month just in case its needed

 

 

now, how soon after you cleared the arrears did they terminate the agreement and did they send a termination notice

and when did you get a default notice

 

DO NOT VOLUNTARY SURRENDER THE CAR

 

IF A REPO MAN TURNS UP, TELL HIM TO SOD OFF

[postggj]

ill be back on later tonight

[traceyb71]

Thanks, to save me regugitating the same stuff, see the letter sent to them in italics on one of the above posts, at the time I discussed the arrears with them they would not set up a payment plan as such, they did reinstate the DD for the regular amount and it was my understanding that the arrears would be paid when finances improved. At no point in that conversation was I advised about a default or anything else. In the letter I got from them on 13.04.11, I didn't know what they meant but they stated they would write to me about it so I waited for a letter which never arrived. It was then I wrote to them which they, unsurprisingly, are saying they never got. When I called them last night they said they had sent me a default notice, I swear to god I never did, there's no way I would have let it get to this situation had I had that notice they allege to have sent me!! In any event, the arrears were there, but as I said, from my conversation with them this to my mind was agreed that about May/June time the DD payments could be increased which I am now offering to. I will dig out the agreement later and check what type it was. I really hope it doesn't get to Court, the letter (referred to above in italics) is AGAIN offering payments to clear the remaining balance within the original agreement, namely 60mths, I am also asking them if they will agree to using a mediation service. If I have to go to Court to defend it means taking another day off work, annual leave I might add I will need to use if I have to give the car back, in order to look after young daughter as won't be able to get her the 8.4 miles to my mum who looks after her in the school holidays, they WILL NOT listen to reason, it is black and white, they are not using common sense as a judgement. At the end of the day they are going to get their sodding money from me as I am not saying I won't pay, quite the opposite. Your offer of assistance for a defence is very much appreciated by the way, thank you so much. In desperation I have even gone to webuyanycar.com, I'm sorry, I am not going to sell them my car for way way less than I know it is worth - would rather take my chances in front of a Judge!! By the way, the chappie from FRADS who RCI have instructed to a) get me to voluntarily relinquish my car, b) obtain full settlement or c) take me to Court, was fab! He himself couldn't quite believe that I am offering to pay and they are not willing to accept, still, he has his job to do. He has given me a week's grace to 'try and refinance' - this aint gonna happen sadly, am not prepared to sign up to some ridiculous loan company with interst rates of 40-70%!

[Ell-enn]

Even if it did get to court, there is no way a judge would give them possession of the vehicle give the short time left on the agreement and the fact that you have offered to pay.

[traceyb71]

Thanks, it's such a relief to know that is what others think too, the chap at the helpline place I called this morning seemed to think the Judge would advise them to accept my offer of payment. However, I do wonder somewhat as when I went onto the DirectGov.uk website and read their advise on return of goods they state that when I return the form offering payment, the Court will then forward to the Claimant (RCI) and 'if they agree' the matter ends there but 'if they don't agree' then it goes to a hearing so I do wonder whether the Judge can make them see sense. RCI have basically told me last night that once they repudiate the agreement 'there's no way it can be put back in place' so I am slightly confused about whether or not a Judge can in fact say to them, look this lady is willing to pay, you must accept the repayment plan!!

[Ell-enn]

What you have to remember is that these kind of companies will say anything to get you to pay up - they think you won't know your rights and if they mention court you will roll over and do what they want. The will know perfectly well that a judge won't give them possession of the vehicle in your circumstances.

[traceyb71]

Yes, I think their chances of success are small but you never know, I work for a firm of solicitors and we all know that the judgement made by a Judge depends on what mood they are in on that day!! I just hope I get a reply soon to my letter I sent them today. Stubborn buggers!! I am however going to retrieve the original agreement from the 'abyss' of the file box later on this evening though and go through it with a fine toothed comb. The annoying part is I could get free advice from work about it but it's not really what you want to go to them for is it!?!?!?

[traceyb71]

oops, re post no.11 it was actually 2008 I was made redundant.

[Gaston Grimsdyke]

Your agreement is a hire purchase agreement, RCI don't do any other type of product for consumers. Don't bother putting a defence in (if they issue proceedings) because you don't have one (i.e. you are in arrears) and you run the risk of incurring a costs liability if they have to deal with a spurious defence. They are entitled to ask you to voluntarily surrender, and for some customers it is actually the best option. However, it isn't your best option clearly so you are equally entitled to refuse to VS. That leaves them two options which is 1) accept your offer without court action or 2) take proceedings seeking a delivery order. If you are offering to clear the remaining balance before the end of the term of the agreement the judge will only grant a suspended delivery order which means they cannot take the car provided you make the agreed payments. It is doubtful RCI would oppose a suspended delivery order, they may only want to secure your proposal with a suspended order so they can simply seize the vehicle if you default.

 

There is another option for you, however, if they refuse to accept your proposal which is for you to apply for a time order. Given what you say it will almost certainly be granted by the court and will give you protection from having the vehicle repossessed. If you make your offer to RCI and also say you propose to apply for a time order if they refuse they may well think harder about it. It is also worth making the payments voluntarily anyway - the smaller your balance the less inclined they will be to sue.

[traceyb71]

Thank you, doesn't sound that promising now somehow!! I will read up on the time order you mention later on this evening, I do recall seeing something about this on DirectGov.uk earlier on today but to be honest I didn't pay much attention to it because I was specifically looking for a Return of Goods Order which is what RCI told me it would be. Thanks, I shall be back on later.

[Ell-enn]

There is a time order application form on this thread http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?304022-Duncton-Finance-Potential-Vehicle-Repossession

[Gaston Grimsdyke]

Just a small word of caution on time orders - the court does have power to make a suspended delivery order on a time order application, though whether RCI know that or not is another matter. I suspect that if you tell RCI you intend to apply for one they may well back down.

[traceyb71]

Thanks, am going to look this up now. Can I apply for a time order before they put in their application?

[traceyb71]

So, do you think it is actually worth sending a further letter to them tomorrow informing them that if they fail to respond to my letter of today within say 14 days I shall be making an application to the Court for a time order. Also, do I apply to my local court or theirs which would be watford, mine is about an hour's drive away from there so will be difficult to get over just to submit an application?