old CCJ mortgage shortfall now + CO - sb'ed? - dca adding yrs of backdated interest - is this legal?

[the tinkerman]

Hi Tinks, as you say could have been better, could have been worse. The past 5 months have really ground me down and I think I have great satisfaction in knowing that it will take 83 years to clear this debt (excluding the ongoing interest) and I will be long gone by then! As the CO is really only a restriction I can live with that and deal with it if we ever sell up.

 

I got the feeling today that no matter how many times I asked the question re the substitution of claimant I was not going to get an answer. Hope you have better luck with that than I did.

 

Yeh Bangin your head in a brick wall comes to mind I know the feelin

 

You know just as a matter of interest I am sure I have read somewhere that if it is only a restriction of how you can get round paying them if you sell your house, will have a dig to see if I can remember where I read about it, might be something completely different but will let you know if its anything worth while.

[alangee]

BradB

 

Just a quick couple of questions. When did the DCA buy the debt and when did they substitute themselves for the original claimant?

 

Alan

[the tinkerman]

H Alangee

 

Think this is the thread that will answer your question

 

 

 

I recently had a charging order (restriction really as my husband is not a joint debtor) and have completed a N244 to have the interest stopped. I have a date for the hearing and am looking for some advice. The CCJ is very old and they have already applied 6 years interest (£9k). I have a couple of questions that I could do with some help with.

The DCA purchased the debt in Aug 07 but did not substitute themselves as the claimant with the court until Dec 10. Can they charge interest for a period that they did not in the eye's of the court own the debt?

I also found the following text on the debt help uk website.

If the DCA bought the "benefit" of your contract with the claimant (so the DCA took you to court) they will be able to claim any interest that the claimant could have claimed if the contract had stayed with them.

If the Claimant took you to court, and subsequently assigned the benefit of the judgement and / or the CO to the DCA, the DCA will not be entitled to claim interest after judgement.

As I did not received a Notice of Assignment off either the Original Claimant or the DCA how do I find out if they sold the benefit of the contract?

Any advice gratefully received.

Thanks

 

The DCA I am dealing with bought my CCJ back in 2003 via a NOA but only substituted themselves as the new claimant in 2010? but have been taking my monthly payment via the OC solicitor since 2003

[the tinkerman]

Just as a matter of interest BradB

 

Have u please got the link to the following quote from the debt help uk website please.

 

 

If the DCA bought the "benefit" of your contract with the claimant (so the DCA took you to court) they will be able to claim any interest that the claimant could have claimed if the contract had stayed with them.

If the Claimant took you to court, and subsequently assigned the benefit of the judgement and / or the CO to the DCA, the DCA will not be entitled to claim interest after judgement.

 

Tinks

[alangee]

Hi Tinkerman

 

If the agreement/terms & conditions allowed post judgement interest, then I would expect that the DCA would start charging from the point they bought the debt. In BradB's case - at least - they didn't substitute themselves as claimant until they needed to, ie, to gain a charging order, but they could only charge interest from August 07. If they have charged more than the approximate 4 years that they have held the account, then I would have thought that that was subject to dispute. However, you need to know what the transfer value was at the time of the sale, because it is possible that the OC may have started charging interest prior to August 07.

 

Alan

[the tinkerman]

In my own case the DCA bought my CCJ in 2003 but are claiming Statutory interest from when the Original Judgement was granted back in 2000 AND when the debt was bought by this DCA on the NOA the figure was 9k which had reduced from 10k (hence their was no interest previously being charged or stated on the Original Judgement) but now with the Statutory interest added it is nearly 20k.

 

What I cannot get my head round re the substitution is granted any DCA can buy debts including a CCJ but before they can act on it eg buying it, collecting on it,or adding interest on it, they must follow certain procedures like sending the correct assignment, having a CCL, likewise surely they would have to obtain a Notice Change of Ownership through the courts before the can start adding any interest or collecting on it and the fact that they bought the CCJ 4 or 7 years ago should be irrelevant IMO.

 

As stated previously IMO a CCJ is a legally binding document between the two parties named on it and as such until a party is changed in court of law then nothing should change or be collected or added.

Edited June 1, 2011 by the tinkerman

[BradB]

Just as a matter of interest BradB

 

Have u please got the link to the following quote from the debt help uk website please.

 

 

If the DCA bought the "benefit" of your contract with the claimant (so the DCA took you to court) they will be able to claim any interest that the claimant could have claimed if the contract had stayed with them.

If the Claimant took you to court, and subsequently assigned the benefit of the judgement and / or the CO to the DCA, the DCA will not be entitled to claim interest after judgement.

 

Tinks

 

Hi , I found this quote on the net, thought it was really useful and wrote it down word for word, but can't find it again. I have searched everywhere and all through debt help uk's website and it doesn't come up again. Sorry

Edited June 1, 2011 by BradB
spelling

[alangee]

tinkerman

 

You say you have received the NoA, so that means that the assignment has been completed and that the DCA is the absolute owner.

 

Was the original debt a loan and subject of a regulated agreement? If it was a loan, did the original T&C's allow for post judgement interest charges? Are you sure that the judgement did not contain a clause for interest charges? The fact that the OC did not charge interest does not necessarily mean that they could not have. Sometimes the bigger banks take the pragmatic view that the debt will never be paid if they charge the interest, so they then freeze it - unlike DCA's.

 

Perhaps the DCA is "only" charging statutory interest because they do not have the original documentation, so cannot be sure of the rate your agreement stated.

 

Alan

[sequenci]

Remember folks that statutory interest cannot be claimed at all if the judgment debt is CCA regulated.

[alangee]

That is right Sequenci. My suggestion - although I put it badly - is that if the account does allow for post judgement interest, then perhaps they just chose the statutory interest rate because they did not have the original documentation.

 

Alan

[sequenci]

If it's CCA regulated, and the judgment was from before 1st Oct '08 the claimform must request for an interlocutory judgment to be made for them to claim contractual interest. They cannot simply apply it to the judgment without it.

[BradB]

Just as a matter of interest BradB

 

Have u please got the link to the following quote from the debt help uk website please.

 

 

If the DCA bought the "benefit" of your contract with the claimant (so the DCA took you to court) they will be able to claim any interest that the claimant could have claimed if the contract had stayed with them.

If the Claimant took you to court, and subsequently assigned the benefit of the judgement and / or the CO to the DCA, the DCA will not be entitled to claim interest after judgement.

 

Tinks

 

Hi Tinks

After lot's of searching I have managed to find where I read it, hope it helps you

 

http://www.debthelpuk.co.uk/cgi-bin/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1146165029

[the tinkerman]

Much appreciated BradB

 

Hi alangee

 

yes my loan was regulated by the CCA 1974 and did not contain any clauses in the Original Judgement regarding interest charges, it just stated "and Interest up to date of Judgement" the only place where it mentions anything in relation to interest issues on the Original Judgement are in the Notes for the defendant at the bottom left hand side which forms part of the template of a CCJ form which are for reference only were it states " if judgement is for£5000 or more or is in respect of a debt that attracts contractual or statutory interest for late payment, the claimant may be entitled to further interest" and yes the DCA do have a copy of the original agreement.

 

Tinks

[paulwlton]

Much appreciated BradB

 

Hi alangee

 

yes my loan was regulated by the CCA 1974 and did not contain any clauses in the Original Judgement regarding interest charges, it just stated "and Interest up to date of Judgement" the only place where it mentions anything in relation to interest issues on the Original Judgement are in the Notes for the defendant at the bottom left hand side which forms part of the template of a CCJ form which are for reference only were it states " if judgement is for£5000 or more or is in respect of a debt that attracts contractual or statutory interest for late payment, the claimant may be entitled to further interest" and yes the DCA do have a copy of the original agreement.

 

Tinks

 

Have you a thread on this?

 

Do you hold the original agreement? if not send a CCA request?

 

Is the agreement enforceable?

 

Who's the original creditor?

 

Who now owns the debt?

 

PW

[BradB]

Well I got a very nice letter off Asset Recoveries this morning (27th)

with their bank details and asking me to make 1st payment by 30th!

 

Phoned bank and made payment direct and set up standing order

then phoned Asset to advise who asked me if I wanted to make a card payment to them over the phone.

 

Do I hell, as if I would give them all my details including the security number on the back! Dream on.

 

So they are no stuck with a £30k debt being paid off at £30 a month and can't do anything about it unless I default - which I won't.

 

Serves you right for being greedy.

 

By adding interest (which I work out to be £200) a month and only having a restriction and not a charging order you have no hope of ever getting all your money. Life's a b**ch!!!

[BradB]

Hi,

I have now had my £30 in payment for 12 months and decided to phone Asset Recoveries for my annual statement as I have had no contact off them since the payments started.

 

After talking to a very strange man on the phone I was told that my debt, included in a portfolio, had been sold to Arrow Global.

 

I then made a phone call to them and they said they have no trace of me on their system

so I phoned Shoesmiths solicitors who confirmed that my debt had been sold and to contact Arrow again.

 

They could not confirm the date it had been sold.

 

Am I right in thinking that I should have been issued with a Notice of Assignment by both Asset and Global

and that they need to apply to the court for change of ownership?

 

Thanks in advance

[dx100uk]

Hi, I have now had my £30 in payment for 12 months and decided to phone Asset Recoveries for my annual statement as I have had no contact off them since the payments started. After talking to a very strange man on the phone I was told that my debt, included in a portfolio, had been sold to Arrow Global. I then made a phone call to them and they said they have no trace of me on their system so I phoned Shoesmiths solicitors who confirmed that my debt had been sold and to contact Arrow again. They could not confirm the date it had been sold. Am I right in thinking that I should have been issued with a Notice of Assignment by both Asset and Global and that they need to apply to the court for change of ownership?

Thanks in advance

 

yes corerect

 

something smells here

 

dx

[geoffthechef]

You really need some pro bono help with this as this case just does not seem right...somewhere you have been royally shafted...

[BradB]

Hi, been waiting for my Notice of Assignment and it has arrived.

 

Arrow bought the debt on13th May 2011!

 

Another DCA that thinks it is ok to leave it 12 months before informing you!

 

As well as an NOA they very kindly asked me to complete an income and expenditure questionnaire

so that they can understand my personal circumstances.

 

What a joke!

 

I had to advise them that the case is subject to a CCJ and that payments are set at £30 per month.

 

I have had another letter today saying my annual statement will take about 6 weeks and in the meantime could i complete said I&E form.

 

Not a cat in hells chance and having read it I would strongly advise anybody who receives one not to fill it in,

especially as it says on the bottom 'on providing this information i acknowledge liability for the debt outstanding'.

 

Now I know this makes no difference to me but if someone receives one who doesn't have a ccj and completes and signs it they are in big trouble.

 

I had set up a new standing order for said amount but am now thinking to myself that as I have not had any court papers

substituting themselves as owners should I be paying them anything?

 

Don't want to stop paying as that would give them reason to go back to court.

 

Geoffthechef

- I know I have been stitched up here but as ccj judges don't really care about us normal people the DCA's always get what they want!

[dx100uk]

they might have brought the debt

BUT AS ITS SUBJECT TO A CJj, THEY NEED TO GET THEMELVES SUBSTITUTED. OPP caps.

 

God this debt smells.

 

dx

[BradB]

Hi dx, should I not be paying them until the court informs they have been substituted as the claimant? I just don't want to give them the opportunity to say I have faulted on the payments.

[dx100uk]

i need to read right through this thread again

 

unless the key points have been already posted.?

 

dx

[BradB]

Key points have not been summarised and there is another thread called Charging Order which relates to this as well, be a long read I'm afraid.

[dx100uk]

i've merged them.

 

dx

[dx100uk]

resume.....

 

• November 1990 – I moved out of ****** and contacted National Home Loans immediately to give them my new address.

No correspondence received from National Home Loans until judgement below received.

 

• 30th November 1994 – High Court of Justice awarded Claimant (National Home Loans) £19664.55.

CCJ mortgage shortfall dating back to 1992. 30/11/1994 [for my old home - never paid]

forthwith judgement

It is this day adjudged that the defendant do pay the plantiff £**** debt

being £**** as claimed on the Writ,

plus £**** interest since issue and £*** costs.

Total £19k ..against me for my old home 1994, unknown till 1995. [never paid]

 

• 21st December 1994 – Application for Attachment Of Earning received off ******** County Court.

i made a court appearance in 1995 for an attachment of earnings [dismissed]

 

• 17th January 1995 – Attachment of Earnings form completed and returned to ***** County Court.

 

• 28th February 1995 – Attended ****** County Court for hearing re Attachment of Earnings. Case dismissed by Court as on maternity leave from work and receiving under the protected earnings limit.

 

• 8th November 1995 – Contacted by National Home Loans. Still supported by my husband and pregnant with my 2nd child.

 

• 4th December 1995 – Letter from National Home Loans asking them to contact them to discuss repayment proposals.

 

• February 2001 – Telephone call off National Home Loans and case discussed with my husband. Letter received from them stating they will register a default against me .

 

• 26th February 2001 – I sent a letter to National Homes Loans advising them that I no longer lived at ************* which was due to a trail separation from my husband. I had a redirection on my post for 6 months.

 

• 2nd July 2001 – Letter sent to National Homes Loans confirming that my situation had still not changed, I was still supported by my husband and had 2 small children to look after.

 

• 19th July 2001 – Further letter received asking for income and expenditure form to be completed.

 

In the documents supplied by Lawsmiths Solicitors there is a gap from 19th July 2001 until 21st December 2010.

 

These documents have been requested but to date have not been received.

 

Lawsmith Solicitors confirmed over the telephone that Phoenix Recoveries took over the debt on 6th August 2007.

 

Lawsmiths gave me a breakdown of the account in 2008 quoting £15k owing as the mortgage shortfall.

 

i got added to my husbands mortgage 2009. [on current house

- my husband has owned it outright since 2011 and paid the deposit and all the mortgage payments]

National Homes Loans [paragaon] passed on the debt to Phoenix Recoveries (UK) Ltd S.A.R.L

They passed it onto Asset Recoveries on 21.12.10.

 

• 21st December 2010 – Phoenix Recoveries (UK) Limites (sic) S.a.r.l acting in the name and on behalf of its compartment “AR Recoveries” received order to be substituted as the Claimant.

 

• 11th January 2011 - Phoenix Recoveries (UK) Limited S.A.R.L – Acting in the name an on behalf of obtained an Interim Charging Order against ********.

Interim charging order is dated 23.1.11 i get interim charging order on this property from old home debt.

 

march 2011 Charging Order made final £30k .

 

The name on the court paper dated 05.01.11 is Phoenix Recoveries (UK) Limited S.A.R.L. - acting in the name and on behalf of it compartment "AR Recoveries".

Still have some documents missing but have made a time line of events from what I have.

 

I have said all along I do not have any capital in the house.

My husband purchased it and paid a very large deposit which he had made on 2 previous house sales.

He had a serious health scare and put my name on the mortgage so that if anything happened to him

I would have one less thing to worry about.

He put down over 50% deposit

and with house prices falling would not get all of that back at the moment

so in effect if he decided to sell the house (and he has every right as it is his)

he would end up paying mine and someone else' debt!

 

I really am not trying to avoid this debt but just think it is extremely unfair if he ends up paying it.

 

.....