Scottish Gas

[Feebee_71]

Nottslad,

 

Sorry if this is really dense but I'll ask it anyway............

 

I always thought the argument used by the utility companies regarding deemed contracts was that it was the USE of the product they supply to the property that forms the basis of the deemed contract not that the facility is there for the utility to be used.

 

If the OP were to get the gas connected to an appliance then I could understand the utility company chasing them, however whenever the utility company has been out and read the meter it hasn't changed since the previous reading, and it seems what they want to chase the OP with is their estimation of what might have been used since the previous billing period.

 

As I said, this might appear to be really dense,

 

Feebee_71

[nottslad]

Hi Feebee

 

By having a supply to the property a deemed contract exists, whether the supply is used or not is irrelevant.

 

If there were a standing charge attached to the product, as is the case with most business supplies, the occupier of the property would be liable for the standing charge even if they did not consume any energy.

 

I agree this is exceptionally poor customer service from Scottish Gas, and they should read the meter or have taken Vintage's word for it that there has been no consumption and sent a meter reader to double check the reading given that there is free access to the meter with it being outside. Perhaps putting the complaint in writing / email to Scottish Gas might be an idea? With the reluctance to give full name details, an email could maybe be set through google or some similar provider to not reveal any personal details of Vintage's... My concern if I were in this position would be that the problem may occur again in the future unless something is done to resolve it for good, eg removing the gas supply as previously suggested...

[Vintage123]

Ok fair enough.

 

I totally agree that in Contract Law you don't have to sign a contract for terms and conditions to apply (like getting on a bus or a train etc.) but I have been of the feeling like the previous poster has stated that I haven't actually used their service and therefore I do think it's questionable as to the existance of the contract?

 

I am not using the gas and therefore there is no contractual relationship there.

 

Normally something... happens..... for a contract to exist and nothing on my side would technically form a contract. They might have rights to access meter and legally have to send me a bill but the fact that I'm not doing anything that would form a contract is questionable. I'm not subject to a standing charge so the standing charge arguement doesn't apply to me.

 

I do appreciate you know the regularity regulations but I do think that you might not be accounting for the ins and outs of contract law.

 

However, we will just say we agree there is a deemed contract but this still doesn't mean their terms and conditons automatically apply to me, as like has been said, my activities as "customer" no contractual relationship has been formed re usage of supply which is shut off.

 

On that note what would happen if someone didn't pay there bill and they took the customer to court to gain means to access the meter, as threatened in final demand. Now what would happen then if customer wasn't paying? Would they not just shut the supply off? Or would they just keep billing a customer who is not paying bills? That would be interesting to know Nottslad.

 

I am slightly concerned that your going by the regulations but failing to account for other area's of law that can throw up questions, however, I am very appreciative for your help too.

Edited February 17, 2011 by Vintage123

[nottslad]

Lifted from an Ofgem document:

"Schedule 2B paragraph 8(1) of the Gas Act and Schedule 6 paragraph 3(1) of the

Electricity Act, respectively, as amended by the Utilities Act, provide that where a supplier

supplies gas or electricity to

premises or a consumer otherwise than in pursuance of a contract, the supplier shall be

deemed to have contracted with the consumer for the supply of gas or electricity from

the time when he began to supply that gas or electricity. Typically a deemed contract will

occur where a customer moves into a new property and has not agreed contractual terms

with a supplier who is supplying energy to that property or where a fixed term contract

expires and there are no explicit provisions for terms and conditions for the period

immediately after expiry

1

.

Ofgem considers that deemed contracts play a vital role in the energy market. The nature

of supply is such that it would be inefficient, given current metering technology, to

disconnect a premise when a customer had moved out and reconnect the premise upon

application for a contract by a new occupant. In addition, suppliers may not always be

aware of customer movements until a period of time has elapsed after the event. A

deemed contract therefore seeks to provide a sound and binding basis upon which

suppliers will supply customers where a contract has not been expressly agreed. It also

provides suppliers with a clear basis upon which to charge for that supply.

As by definition the terms and conditions of a deemed contract have not been expressly

agreed between suppliers and customers, Ofgem considers that it is appropriate for these

terms and conditions to be subject to regulation. In particular Ofgem considers that the

charges levied under deemed contracts should not be unduly onerous and that customers

being supplied under deemed contracts should be free to access the competitive market

and transfer to the supplier of their choice. On this last point, domestic gas customers on

deemed contracts can still be objected to on grounds of debt where this meets the

criteria set out under SLC 46 or Section 16 of the MRA. In the non-domestic market

customers on deemed contracts can not be objected to for debt or on grounds specified

in the contract. "

 

 

In response to your point "On that note what would happen if someone didn't pay there bill and they took the customer to court to gain means to access the meter, as threatened in final demand. Now what would happen then if customer wasn't paying? Would they not just shut the supply off? Or would they just keep billing a customer who is not paying bills?"

 

Provided the energy supplier were not aware of any vulnerability, they would most likely fit a prepayment meter where possible. Disconnection is always a last resort. Most suppliers (if not all) will also charge for taking this action. Before taking disconnection action, a pre-disconnection visit would be made. In your case as the meter is outside, a meter read would easily be obtained which would remove the estimated debt from the account as there has been no energy consumption, however the supplier may still charge to cover the cost of this visit as the intent to do so would be clearly communicated in any correspondence sent prior to the visit taking place.

 

With regard to my previous point relating to standing charge, I appreciate that there is no standing charge on the gas tariff applicable to the account in question, this was just an example of how a deemed contract exists even if no supply is used. The same goes if there was a leak after the meter point; the meter would register that gas had been consumed and you as the occupier of the property would be liable for the cost of this consumption (although as you live in rented accommodation you would most likely have the right to set-off any charges such as this against rent payments as the gas pipes constitute the fabric of the property and are the landlord's liability to maintain).

 

The Act clearly states that "the supplier shall be deemed to have contracted with the consumer for the supply of gas or electricity from the time when he began to supply that gas or electricity." The gas supply to your property is 'live' and although it may be 'capped' and no appliances are in use, the supply is still available and Scottish Gas are supplying gas to the property, therefore giving rise to the deemed contract and their terms and conditions will apply as they are what form the deemed contract

[Vintage123]

As by definition the terms and conditions of a deemed contract have not been expressly

agreed between suppliers and customers, Ofgem considers that it is appropriate for these

terms and conditions to be subject to regulation

 

Correct, and therefore that is industry regulation and NOT company regulation. It's basically the Utilities Act 2000 etc. Basically what I have been saying in latter posts.

 

Oh, where did you get all that info..... so, so, so, goooooooooooooood! Thankyou, thankyou!!!

 

I almost don't want the discussion to end.....

 

You need to tell me the source, so I can print it off and go and smack Scottish Gas over the head with it!!!! lol!

 

Miss Vin

Edited February 18, 2011 by Vintage123

[Vintage123]

Slight problem, I'm not sure if my.... contract.... is an express contract or an implied contract. Do you have anything that relates to implied contract?

 

 

 

Express contracts means terms of the agreement are in writing. And it is a contractual term specifically stated to be part of the contract.

 

Implied contract means the duties and obligation of both parties are not expressed but are implied by their acts or conducts. Both indicate by their conduct that they have a mutual agreement and need not express the agreement in words.

 

I do get letters re express but on the other hand I would say it's an implied contract.

 

Oh, so sorry, just reading it again, I seem to be getting myself confused now. It is an implied but that is ok re your last posting Nottslad.

Edited February 18, 2011 by Vintage123

[nottslad]

I can't remember the link I'm afraid, but it's from the Ofgem website

 

Your "contract" will certainly be an implied contract. Express contracts very rarely exist anymore, in the sense that it is very rare to see an actual signed agreement in relation to energy supply.

 

TBH I think you have really good grounds for a complaint on the grounds of the poor customer service you have received from Scottish Gas. at the end of the day you have told them there is no consumption, there has been many years go by and no energy has been used etc.

 

You do right in not giving them your details on the grounds that they share information with credit reference agencies, and these incorrect estimates, which you are quite rightly not paying, would affect your credit file as they would show as a late payment.

[Surfer01]

that's great news Martin... wonder if their views will be the same as mine since they're officially acting for the company!?

Hi Nottslad, you have been quiet for awhile. Nice to see you back again!

[2Grumpy]

You do right in not giving them your details on the grounds that they share information with credit reference agencies, and these incorrect estimates, which you are quite rightly not paying, would affect your credit file as they would show as a late payment.

 

Which is another reason why the way that energy suppliers report to CRAs should be regulated.

[Vintage123]

Nottslad,

 

when you say I have good grounds for a complaint, do you mean to Ofgem or are you talking about Scottish Gas?

 

A complaint to Ofgem sounds like more fun to me.

 

If so anything specific you think I should mention or add etc apart from putting in the complaint? Pointers etc, that you might see as being of greater prominence?

 

Finally, will there be any money in this complaint for me? Ok, I'm being a chancer now but the thought sounds good!

[nottslad]

Ofgem don't generally deal with consumer complaints... see http://www.ofgem.gov.uk/Consumers/Pages/Consumer.aspx

 

gives full details of how and who to complain to

[Vintage123]

Thankyou. I looked up Ofgem after I posted and then realised. Thanks for all your help and everyone else who contributed to the discussion of which I have enjoyed. Good to thrash it out and get to the nitty gritty. Will keep you all posted with hopefully a future update.

 

and..... thanks again.

 

Miss Vin.

[Singey14]

I am writing an article on how the consumer is taken for a ride and am keen to get in touch with any employees who can explain the pressure they find themselves under , or indeed any customers who feel they have been wrongly misled. I certainly will not mention anyone names. Please contact me anonymously as soon as possible via this blog forum/ message me personally.

 

Many thanks.