Breeding

[Guest naillig]

As an animal lover i am quite astounded that so many people think its fine to "hobby breed" to obviously make money when there are so many healthy animals in overful rescues and they are putting to sleep hundreds of these healthy animals every day .

 

I believe its called back street breeding and the charges are unbelievable -buy a pedigree and let it out to breed with anything is another ploy -that way its still half pedigree and we can get at least £70+ -then we can have another litter when they have sold -makes my blood boil !

 

Why on earth don''t animal lovers that want a animal go to a rescue - there will be another one somewhere waiting for that space immedietly !

 

All my animals are rescues and wouldn''t have it any other way !!

[janmal2000]

sorry, whilst i do greatly agree with a lot of what you have said, i class myself as a 'hobby breeder' and i am nothing like what you class them as being.

*my girls ( i have bred 3 generations now, 4th due this year), are all home reared and are a massive part of my family.

*their stud dog is campaigned throughout the country and is a highly achived show dog, although i have never showed my girls, they are bred to the hightest standard and could well possibly throw a future champion if the owner wishes to go down that route. most importantly they are bred to BREED STANDARD which the KC does not issue as proof as having a KC certificate! i agree there are far too many inferior 'pedigree / KC reg' dogs out there and unfortunatly because people hold that certificate in such high regard it means nothing to the actual quality of the dog.

*i have not bred 3 years but will be having two litters this year - hence the 'hobby'.

*i activelly work with my local animal rescues including fostering, transporting, donations etc and indeed ended up keeping a foster dog who has now been with us 2 years.

*i am an Acredited Breeder with the KC, which means we have stricter guidlines to adhere to (all of which i did BEFORE i registered for the scheme).

*i regularly turn people down if i feel they are not right and many,many times suggest people go to the local rehoming centres.

 

so please, dont assume that every 'hobby breeders' are the same, but i will say ALL puppy farmers are the scour of the animal world and no-one should ever buy from them, if people stopped buying these poor animals then they would be put out of business. Also, the KC need to regulate the registration of all the dogs being issued with KC certificates (or certainly the dam/sire) of every dog going to be bred, if not of suitable quality - remove the KC cert!, the council need to enforce such breeding which is also in the very long pipe-line but they should cease trading off all the farms ASAP.

[Minkiesmum]

The Kennel Club certainly need their collective arses kicked because they DON'T regulate breeding properly at all-as far as I'm concerned they're in it for the money and not the dogs as they purport to be.

I considered breeding my first Westie because I wanted another but luckily her breeder pointed out to me that he'd prefer to sell me another puppy to go with her rather than replace her should I lose her in the process because I didn't know what I was doing....plus a veterinary nurse pal pointed out I shouldn't consider it unless I could easily afford a caesarian should something go wrong.......so I had her spayed and purchased another pup from said breeder.

He did something right cos' they both made it to 16 and one's still going strong !! So I'll be returning to that particular breeder !!

 

Lynda ~

[Minkiesmum]

Oh, to add-I wanted to go the rescue route myself but because I commit the cardinal crime of working I wasn't allowed. Yet my 2 dogs never wanted for anything and always had a flap. Two little dogs lost out on a good home because of rescues' far too stringent rules..............

[hightail]

The Kennel Club certainly need their collective arses kicked because they DON'T regulate breeding properly

 

Both the Kennel Club (dogs) and the GCCF (cats) don't have any power to 'regulate' breeding. They are not much more than databases of pedigree animals which have been registered with them and for which they provide proof of pedigree in the form of registration papers. Those of us who choose to register our animals with them are subject to their rules. They have no power over anyone else and cannot stop anyone breeding anything. If you happen to have a bitch and fancy mating her with a neighbour's dog it has nothing to do with the Kennel Club. You may be able to supply a pedigree certificate and fool many a buyer. You won't be able to register those puppies unless both parents were registered with the KC specifically for breeding and tested and their ancestry known to be compatible and not too closely related. It's a similar situation with pedigree cats. A proper pedigree puppy or kitten comes with registration papers from a recognised registration body. A pedigree certificate is simply a record of ancestry produced by the breeder, meaningless without independent verification. It is the registration document which confirms that ancestry as correct.

[Minkiesmum]

That's interesting-thanks. I think most consumers believe if a puppy comes KC registered that that proves quality....mine are but I only wanted pets so wasn't bothered either way but I would say most are fooled into thinking it's a fact they've approved the breeder !! Who knew..............

 

Lynda~

[jackieandwayne]

I agree with all of you!

 

Naillig - Agree 100% but have to say that not all "hobby breeders" are bad, but bad people advertise themselves as "lovely homely little hobby breeders" which makes unwary people think its going to be all gingham curtains and roses round the door type of thing.

 

However, Jammal2000 sounds to me like the sort of genuine hobby breeder that, when required to part with a pup, will probably break her heart, every time. Now that can't be a bad person can it? What Jammal2000 does, taking great pride quite rightly, don't interest me at all because I don't care what a dog look likes I want to see what it can do! However, if a pure pedigree you must have, then I would have thought a quick telephone call to the KC for advice on making the right purchase, and you paying the right price, will sort things out for you, and prevent yet another sale from a puppy farm, complete with bog roll "certificates".

 

Minkiesmum, I don't really have any interest in the KC, except I, like all dog lovers, can certainly admire a good looking dog. And to some people, this is their life, and fair play to them! However, I wholeheartedly agree with the business of the rescues not allowing smaller dogs to go into flats, or dismiss working families. When I worked I paid for someone to come and get to know my boys and walk them for me. It simply means that if you are in this situation then you know you have to walk your dog a darn sight more than if you had a garden. And really, these days, who but the richest has more than a postage stamp or piece of scrub for a garden anyway! I see many dogs in really good loving homes, in this sort of set up, and provided the owner understands what is required of him and sticks to it, there are no problems.

 

Then Hightail! This is why I am not interested in the KC! Not my cup of tea at all.

 

And then myself - will people PLEASE stop breeding border collies. There are no longer enough jobs for these dogs, the rescues are full of them, and out of all the poor souls I come across who have behavioural problems, it is the poor old border collie I see time and time again. This is my breed, chaps, I love them for what they are, what they can do and not what they look like. But if you intend taking one into your home, particularly a rescue, be very sure you are prepared to change your life, and learn how to become a dog handler when necessary. If you can do that and maintain it, you'll get the best friend ever, AND he or she won't be wanting blooming breeding certificates etc., but you'll be very proud when you get red rosettes in agility etc! And you'll lose a stone or two charging around the course with your dog.

 

So, for me, its a rescue dog every time, I would never go to a puppy farm, and should I ever encounter one I wouldn't hesitate to report, campaign, do whatever to get it shut down.

There are horrible unscrupulous people in this world, I don't care what they do to each other, but gawd help the person who harms an animal, in particular, a dog.

[hightail]

The KC does run a scheme for accredited breeders but (and it's a helluva but) this doesn't necessarily mean anyone has visited the breeder to check them out. It does mean they have committed to work to a set of standards and will be checked out one day if they haven't been already.

 

Where cats are concerned there is no such scheme in place and there is no such thing as a 'registered breeder' though there are plenty who use the term about themselves. Cats I know more about and breeders are automatically subject to GCCF rules if they breed from a GCCF registered cat. It costs a lot more to raise kittens than pups as they cannot be sold until they've had a full course of vaccinations. This means keeping them until they are 13 weeks old with all the extra associated expense - never mind the food, you wouldn't believe how much cat litter 6 kittens can get through I'm definitely a hobby breeder and I certainly don't think it should be used as a derogatory term. Hobbies cost money and this one costs more than most.

 

One thing anyone can do when visiting to choose a pedigree pup or kitten is ask to see the mum's registration slip. Certainly with cats it will state 'cannot be bred from' if it was not specifically registered for breeding. There will be no equivalent comment if it is OK as the GCCF only record restrictions - what can't be done rather than what can. The GCCF will not register kittens from a mating which was between two closely related parents nor will they register kittens from cats which are not properly registered for breeding. I'd love to say you get what you pay for but unfortunately too many people believe those magic 'papers' are just a pedigree certificate. They're not and no good breeder will ever mind a knowledgeable buyer quizzing them, in fact most of us love to bore for hours on our favourite subject

[Minkiesmum]

I agree-I have always ensured I have a garden for them and in a couple of places no flap but always paid somebody to go round during the day to let them out or I drove back 'n' forth. They were NEVER left all day hanging on !! We live in a flat now but groundfloor with a sweet little enclosed grassy garden.....AND a dogflap. To me that's doggy paradise and it's sad I'm considered an "unfit" mum. Both my dogs reached 16 and they didn't do that by being ill-treated nor never exercised enough......

You make a great point about Borders-they're the most intelligent dogs and need more exercise than any breed and too many don't even know this when they get one and wonder why they turn snappy or destructive......and it's such a sad waste of a great dog. They're not for me as I'm not THAT active but I'm aware of my limitations in ever getting a breed like that. I have Westies and we fit together well.

 

Lynda~

[hightail]

I would never go to a puppy farm, and should I ever encounter one I wouldn't hesitate to report,

 

The problem here is that you may not know you're dealing with one - well not you specifically but you know what I mean. Puppy farmers aren't stupid and it's not uncommon for pups to be sold through residential outlets now well away from where they were bred. If you want a home bred animal then beware the 'breeder' who won't let you visit more than once at reasonably short notice. Be very wary of any situation a single animal is brought to you and you are told this is the one you're having. Do not expect to choose an animal from a photo on a website - there's no way I'm even agreeing to you having one of my kittens until we've met and are happy with each other. Do not pay any deposit until you've satisfied yourself that this breeder is raising the pup or kitten you deserve.

[janmal2000]

I agree with all of you!

However, Jammal2000 sounds to me like the sort of genuine hobby breeder that, when required to part with a pup, will probably break her heart, every time. Now that can't be a bad person can it? There are horrible unscrupulous people in this world, I don't care what they do to each other, but gawd help the person who harms an animal, in particular, a dog.

 

i DO break my heart everytime, its gut-wrenching when my 'babies' go to their new mam and dad, and im so lucky that the people who have bought off me have turned into fantastic friends and keep me up to date (without my asking but because they are loving people and know how much i miss them). I curently have one not so baby with me on holidays, another two coming for their hols in the summer, at xmas i had lovely cards and photo's showing how the pups have grown into beautiful and kind natured adults (which of course get the waterworks going again lol). my girls also get spayed if not going to being bred (i suggest this highly to all future owners regardless) or after they have had a litter, to ensure no 'accidents' or maintain their heath as they get older etc.

The KC acredited breeder scheme is difficult to regulate with home visits (i have had mine) but at least the hereditary checks and limitations along with DNA testing are in place to try to at least limit the number of health issues in some pups being bred, this is better than nothing! but its a long road to make it ideal.

 

I do notice that some rescues i am involved in take an extreme restriction on some adoptee's circumstances, ie working full time, but i am of the belief that in such circumstances if the dog is visited through the day OR is used to being at home full time (as mine are when i am working) OR there is 2 dogs for companionship in such households rather than one - it IS perfectly acceptable for certain dogs to be rehomed to working families. it should all be down to suitablility and matching the correct household with the correct dogs, which all rescues should make their priority and not eliminiate households for such a 'crime'.

 

i love my bred dogs as much as my adopted, and equally as much as when i foster. they are all loved and are part of my family until they go to their new forever home (yes -more tears :'( lol)

[jackieandwayne]

jammal - someone recommended me to be a carer for a guide dog pup for a year - then I watched a DVD about it and saw the poor family break their hearts when they had to hand that puppy over - I couldn't do it!

 

Its very much each to his own and so long as all pups/rescues get a good loving home and a chance of rehab if they need it then really, it don't matter where they live.

 

Borders are the best, but actually, I love even those horrible hairless things that feel like leather! Even they can do small agility and do well. Not so good on a 5 - 6 mile hike in the rain though! And anyone wanting a border collie pup - be prepared - this is what has to be done each day of that dog's life until it can no longer do it. (Well, on really awful days, you can get away with a few good on the lead walks, then spend the rest of the day keeping your border occupied with "mind" games etc!, it won't be kong - you'll choose the wet weather hike!)

[janmal2000]

oh heck, its horrendous when they have been here just a couple of months, i cannot imagine a year. i could not do that either, for love, money or anything else, ever. but - my biggest respect and admiration for the people who do coz without them and their huge hearts, we wouldnt have guide dogs (or many of the other assistance dogs)

[jackieandwayne]

wonder why they turn snappy or destructive -

Oh yes - see the little darling in my photo? Aah I hear you all say what a cracker! Cor blimey - you should have seen the mental condition this poor animal was in when i got him! I have a wonderful L-shaped scar on my thigh from two years ago when he caught me out. After 6 months of rehab with me, having to start from scratch, I was out in a field with him one day, he was on the lead. I knew he didn;t like other dogs but he'd been taught by me to avoid them, and was doing well. I did this by forcing him to lay down when there were other dogs around, straddling him if necessary to reinforce I am in charge, and allowing me to chat to the owners. Well, this day I hadnt seen a huge lab charging at us from the side, but Taz spotted him. He also knew I wasn't aware and here is your major problem border owners to be, Taz took the decision to defend us (fair play a charging dog to a dog who has trouble understanding other dogs is a threat) and lunged across me to get at the dog. When he couldn;t because i tried to check him - he turned and took a chunk

out of my thigh, and tore my shorts off! I'm stood in the middle of a field with a wild snapping creature on a lead, bleeding and in my knickers! I was furious, embarrassed and disappointed all at once, which of course old clever clogs picked up on that day and I lost it with him, which I rarely do. We had a screaming match then and there, I recall even yelling at him "have you any idea how much these bloody shorts cost me?"!!! Then I just tossed his lead down, told him to stay and left him there. I made the mistake of glancing back and when i saw him lying there looking after me, well, what can you do. Click my fingers and he's by my side immediately. Looking at me saying "sorry mum I got it wrong again, damn it" with those big doggy eyes.

Well, he'll never do that to me again, because now he understands who is in charge. And we are 2 years on. And two large female German Shephards have firmly put him in his place several times since then, and he now goes out walking with them, off lead, three times a week. But, the reason Taz did this (other doggy people may view it differently, but this is what I believe from watching behaviour generally) is this - these borders are bred to work to a high standard and they are expected to use their own brain to make on the spot difficult decisions when working in certain conditions - this is what man requires of them. When that lab came, and I didn;t see it in time, Taz thought it was his job to protect us both, but, because i had him restrained to a certain extent on the lead he was unable to do this. So he was confused and angry himself, fully believed it was his job to attack, and went for what was restraining him in frustration,. Me. I believe if he had been tied to railing or a tree when this happened he would have sunk his teeth into whatever was restraining him. A trip to the vet with dental problems might have taught him the lesson!

So, a border can make a wonderful family pet; for a willing to change but inexperienced family I'd always recommend a pup, a firm but fair hand, and plenty of training, which they will enjoy. Socialisation with other dogs from 12 weeks is a must, and any signs of aggression, however slight, must be checked immediately. Also be aware, that although this is a dog and should be treated as such, he or she will fully expect to be included in all major family decisions, be a part of all family life, in fact, you need to prepare for a whole new family member! You will find that wherever the family is, so is your border! Very easy to train, especially the bad things which they will learn for themselves from observ ing you and your family! If you have lots of kids, it shouldn't take more than a day for you to teach your new friend to go and round them up and herd them in for bedtime. Any arguments about that - no problem, old border will happily chase them upstairs, nipping their ankles as they go! (I'm being serious because these are the things you have to control - even though you might be tempted to laugh at them - well it does look funny I suppose, but ankle nipping isn't exactly gentle and is an example of how easily these types can take control! You may laugh, but old border is serious, thinks he's doing his job, and think what may happen if a child disobeyed him.)

Anyway, that's enough ramblings from me as the "monster" has just brought my shoe into me, and he says "its time to go out mum, its your birthday, its a perfect day for a hike and you said we were going to Minterne Magna and Dogbury Hill today - get dressed" So I'd better do as I am told - but for any lonely hikers out there - you can't beat a loyal border collie to go with you!

This is my favourite place on CAG, I love chatting to other doggie people, so many tips to be had, funny and sad stories, and all like minded - dog/animal welfare.

[Minkiesmum]

Good to know you guys sorted out your pack leadership !! We had a Border Collie as kids and I know now she never got enough exercise..........she bit 2 people in quick succession and my parents had her put to sleep..........and looking back now it's so sad and it was OURS and my parents' faults for not paying her enough attention and looking after her properly.....rest in peace, Sindy....I'm sorry we were so bloody uneducated.

 

Love Lynda XX

[jackieandwayne]

Well, we all know a lot better now don't we? I'm afraid my grand father (back in the 60's) shot a dog immediately the day it bit him. But he was an arrogant old sod and would never have understood it was his fault entirely that the poor animal bit him. I prefer the way I do things, and (oh I know people will shudder at this) I wouldn't contemplate having a dog destroyed for attacking. I prefer it stay with its owner (owner has to be willing 100% to change) and together they learn how it has to be. Failing that give it to me or my QUALIFIED mate and we will rehab it, and match it to a suitable owner.

[jackieandwayne]

Oh and jammal2000, when I went to collect my brute, the lady at the Border Collie rescue cried when he left with me! It must have been the tenth time that day that a dog went to a new home. There must be something wrong with us all!