County Court action by ex friend

[indianamachno]

Hi Debbs hunny

 

I have checked again! Paranoid now I can only find 3 payments made to total £21,000 no other amount coming to £2,000 in 12 months statements from any where else.

[diddydicky]

Dont shout at me if its wrong

 

 

i am aware that the claimant did not state that she paid cash for the "various items" - but neither did she say she didnt!!..... but if she had simply given varying amounts of cash to the def- then surely her POC would have referred to the fact of giving various amounts of cash to the def and would not have mentioned "various items"

 

her sols say she cant provide proof of the individual withdrawals and she has mentioned that they were for "various items" - so let her squirm.......- how come - if she does not have records of the individual amounts- that she can accurately total them to £1213- did she just pluck this figure from thin air................ putting her to proof of the individual amounts creates a lot of work and the possibility that she might "slip up" in tryingh to match up to the figure

 

she has already in different letters- contradicted herself as to when these amounts were paid.

 

 

the golf clubs are not mentioned in the POC so they should be forgotten about.

 

if she later claims that they make up a part of the POC-- again she will have egg on her face as they are not mentioned in the POC

 

what i am a little uneasy about is the difference between the £21K and the £23K- i know you say you have checked again- but i would have thought you must KNOW what you borrowed- think hard- we do NOT want egg on our faces if she comes up with another £2 grand- so if there was another two grand NOW is the time to admit it rather than dispute it. and i am concerned that having twice told her sols that the amount is £21K - they dont seem to have flinched.

[diddydicky]

I would be careful about this. Just in case she does come up with a statement showing this or a similar amount. Afterall Inianamancho doesn't deny recieving the money. IF the claimant did produce it, it could discredit all of the defence.

 

this will be at the heart of the defence- if the claimant cannot show £23,000 paid to the defs account- the claim fails and the claimant will either have to discontinue or request permission of the court to alter the POC- which will NOT do her claim any good at all- further she has already claimed in the POC that this was paid into the defs bank account so the claimant cannot now say that £2 grand was paid in cash

 

however i agree with you in the sense that in the atmosphere that surrounds this dispute- i am still not 100% confident that indian does not sometimes hold things back

 

I have already alerted her to this and by reading this again she should note that if she defends on the basis that only £21K was lent and the claimant comes up with proof of £23K she might as well whistle dixie

 

*** just a thought- are you sure indian that there are NO OTHER bank accounts that the £2K may have been paid into?

[indianamachno]

I know I have made plenty of mistakes due to not knowing what I am doing and i hold me hands up as before. And Yes you are right they are not flinching on th £23,000 they are claiming and I have gone over and over in my head what was lent and asked my ex and he confirms that there where only ever three payments made to myself.

 

I have statements from end of August 2008 untill August 2009 The money was given when I was renovating a house I purchased in november. I have gone through the whole statement day by day and can find nothing else at all only the three payments that i recieved £21,000, I have never recieved cash from here eother £1,214 or the other £2,000 that is claimed she paid. If she can show £23,000 going into my account I will show my xxxxx in court as I have checked and checked.

 

Thanks again everyone I know this one is a pain in the !!!!

 

Also DD why are they not disclosing the bank statements if they know for sure it is £23,000 it does not make sence?

 

Actually I dont think we have admitted that I think it is 21,000 may be that is why they dint flinch will have to see what has be said to sol to check ......

[debbbbsy]

Also DD why are they not disclosing the bank statements if they know for sure it is £23,000 it does not make sence?

 

If her business ceased trading, (whether it was her LTD Co, or her trading as), it could be that she is unable to request copy statements for an account that has been closed.

[indianamachno]

Did not think of that but surely her accountant has records?? I need Vodka! I will be going to AA at this rate )))

[Bigdebtor]

If the Claimant can't produce statements that is NOT Indiana's problem - it's the claimants' problem to PROVE the claim of £23k lent - and she actually says it was transferred - so no point now her now claiming the £2k was paid to Indiana in cash. The Claimant should have kept ALL such statements for at least 6 years in any case to keep the tax man happy. If they are "not available" it casts grave doubt that £23k was actually transferred at all. I would be wary just relying on any other "records" - even from her Accountant as these are not prime original documents. However I believe all Banks have to keep all records for at least 6 years after an account becomes dormant for money laundering regulations - so surely they can be got - after all it's less than two years ago?

 

Also Indiana could produce her own bank statements showing only £21k transferred into her bank account - but not sure if this is either necessary or advisable? If there WAS another account where £2k wa stransferred (e.g. ex boyfriend?) then we must remember the Claimant would KNOW this - assuming she DID make the £2k transfer - so imperative any risk of any other account receiving this £2k is discounted NOW - before it's too late.

 

Just as the Claimant will be snookered if only £21k actually transferred, Indiana will be snookered even worse if she claims £21k and £23 is proven somehow. This point will demonstrate the reliability or otherwise of either side and could be pivotal to the judge's verdict.

 

Good point about how Claimant KNOWS it was exactly £1213 (or £1214?) - when she doesn't know exactly what individual cash payments were made or exactly when each was made to Indiana - so a miracle she knows they total exactly £1213!

 

BD

Edited January 13, 2011 by Bigdebtor

[diddydicky]

I know I have made plenty of mistakes due to not knowing what I am doing and i hold me hands up as before. And Yes you are right they are not flinching on th £23,000 they are claiming and I have gone over and over in my head what was lent and asked my ex and he confirms that there where only ever three payments made to myself.

 

I have statements from end of August 2008 untill August 2009 The money was given when I was renovating a house I purchased in november. I have gone through the whole statement day by day and can find nothing else at all only the three payments that i recieved £21,000, I have never recieved cash from here eother £1,214 or the other £2,000 that is claimed she paid. If she can show £23,000 going into my account I will show my xxxxx in court as I have checked and checked.

 

Thanks again everyone I know this one is a pain in the !!!!

 

Also DD why are they not disclosing the bank statements if they know for sure it is £23,000 it does not make sence?

 

Actually I dont think we have admitted that I think it is 21,000 may be that is why they dint flinch will have to see what has be said to sol to check ......

 

yes you did- you sent a breakdown of what was borrow and what you repaid

 

 

i suspect they either genuinely have not got the statements yet OR the claimant has not admitted to her sols which account the money came out of!!

 

she can claim that the agreement was verbal (oral) but they cannot avoid having to show that the £23K was paid to your a/c and as i said she cannot now claim £2 was paid to you in any other way without blowing her case

 

either way they will have to produce evidence that the £23G was paid to your a/c .

 

the fact that they have not "picked up" the discrepancy from your letter is THEIR problem and we are not going to point them in the right direction on that one- as it will undo her claim

[diddydicky]

Did not think of that but surely her accountant has records?? I need Vodka! I will be going to AA at this rate )))

 

no statements no claim- she should not have brought the claim without the evidence to prove it- there is absolutely NO DEFENCE for her in this respect since she admits paying the money into your account

 

in the meantime write to your bank and request the details as to what account the 3 different transactions came from

[diddydicky]

If her business ceased trading, (whether it was her LTD Co, or her trading as), it could be that she is unable to request copy statements for an account that has been closed.

 

good point debbsy- that should cause her a few headaches- especially as she is supposed to keep records for 6 years for inland revenue purposes

[diddydicky]

sorry BD- didnt see your post

[Bigdebtor]

DD

 

That's OK - we're both blokes - so can't multi task. I suspect we were both typing the same thoughts at the same time - ridiculous we can't just send things down to the girls in the typing pool and get on with more manly management tasks these days!

 

BD

[diddydicky]

india

 

the claimants POC claims that the initial loan of £23K was paid into your account in June 2009

 

i got the impression from your posts that this money was loaned many months prior to this

 

when exactly were the three payments made into your account

 

also please tell me when the £17,000 was repaid to the claimant and where it was paid to

 

thanks

[debbbbsy]

Please note the bank statements requested are not currently in the Claimant’s possession although they have been requested from her bank. Once these have been provided these will be disclosed.

 

This was the response from the solicitor 4 jan .

Is it not odd that she failed to keep statements for a business account. If it had £21k in it, to give to Indiana, then it must have been trading.

[debbbbsy]

Once these have been provided these will be disclosed.

 

A further point. Can Indiana demand a stay of proceedings until the claimant complies. Afterall, they are stating they will be disclosed , but have failed to say when.

 

Can Indiana make a "Draft Order Direction" at this stage of proceedings.

 

Debs

[indianamachno]

Yes the payments where made in dec 2008 for 10 G

Jan 2009 for 6 G

Jan 2099 for 5 G TotaL 21,000

 

Cash £1,100 April

Trans £17,000 April Transfered to her account i.e Mrs x xxxxxx

 

OK I HAVE NOTICED THIS TOO BUT NOT SURE IF IT COUNTS. THE BOTTOM OF POC WHERE IT STATES. AND THE CLAIMENT CLAIMS.

 

POC

1. In or around june 2009 the claiment agreed to loan the defendant the sum of 23000 in respect of the defendants deposit on her house which was paid direct into the defendants bank account.

 

2. in previous months the claiment also loaned to the defendant cash amounts which amounted to £1214 for various items. The defendant had agred at the outset of these loans that part of the money she was lending was set aside by the claiment to pay off her credit card and if it was used by the defendant the defendant agreed that she would clear off the balance of the claiments credit card. the defendant repaid the sum of 17000 leaving a balance of £7,214.00

 

3. It was agreed between the claiment and def in or around july 2009 that the defendant would pay this sum back to the claiment by way of paying off the claiments credit card being a Halifax one card

 

4. Since the agreement bewteen the parties was made the defendant made the following payments in repsect of monthy instalments as evidence by the letter dated ...

 

however since the payment of 13th october 2009 the defendant has made o further payments.

 

5. On or around the 19th august 2009 at a meeting bewtween the claiment and defendant, the defendant signed the claiments Halifax one august monthly statement stating. I ............ confirm that i am liable for this amount and that it will be repaid by monthly or untill clear ASAP, including interest. The amount outstanding at the date since the defendant had already made two payments was stated at £6,948.47. As per paragraph 2 above since this date the defendant made a further 2 payments totalling £330.00 leaving a balance of £6,618.47 due and owing.

 

6. The claiment also seeks to recover the interest on the above sum that the claiment has been charged by the bank. The interest up to the 17th nov 2010 amounts to £2,096.22

 

7. The claiment claims interest upon the above sums pursuant to the rate charged under the credit card agreement being stated on the statement of 23.29% per annum.

 

And the claiment claims

1. The sum of £6618.47

2. interest to 17th nov 2010 in the sum of £2,096.22

3. Continuing interest at the rate of 23.29% per anum as per credit card agreemet or in the alternative at the rate of 8% pursuant to section 69 of the county courts act 1984

NO MENTION OF CASH IN WHAT SHE CLAIMS ONLY THE CARD AND INTEREST.

Edited January 13, 2011 by indianamachno

[diddydicky]

the important thing is that the POC are seriously flawed

 

it opens with a claim that the claimant agreed to loan £23,000 in JUNE 2009 £23,000

 

it then cites a written agreement dated 19 august 2009 and a letter from halifax dated 28th (of what i am not sure) as evidence for this loan

 

the only thing i can say in respect of the claimant is

 

oh what a tangled web we weave, when first we practice to deceive

 

together with a mistated claim of £23,000 the claimant is not going to get past first base

 

i am convinced that her sols are either "tame" (she has them in her pocket) or alternatively that she regards them as "mushroom" lawyers ( keep em in the dark and feed em a load of sh*t)

 

and yes, there is good ground for a strike out or stay-

[indianamachno]

the important thing is that the POC are seriously flawed

 

it opens with a claim that the claimant agreed to loan £23,000 in JUNE 2009 £23,000

 

it then cites a written agreement dated 19 august 2009 and a letter from halifax dated 28th (of what i am not sure) as evidence for this loan

 

the only thing i can say in respect of the claimant is

 

oh what a tangled web we weave, when first we practice to deceive

 

together with a mistated claim of £23,000 the claimant is not going to get past first base

 

i am convinced that her sols are either "tame" (she has them in her pocket) or alternatively that she regards them as "mushroom" lawyers ( keep em in the dark and feed em a load of sh*t)

 

and yes, there is good ground for a strike out or stay-

 

The Letter from the Halifax with the POC was just a conformation that I had paid into the Credit Card account On the 4 dates.

 

I think that I have also figured out how she has come to £23,000. Because she has no information I.E bank statements to show dates ( thats why she is guessing June ) she has worked backwards to figure out how I can owe that amount on her credit card that she is claiming.

 

Because she can prove that i repaid £17,000 into her personal account which she will have statements for. She has can only conclude that because she is stating that i owe £6.948. 47 on the CC and relying on the signed statement. it has to add up.

 

£17,000.00 re-paid+

£ 6,948.00 CC

 

£23,948.00 Total, but this comes to more than £23,000 so she has decided to add a cash payment of £1,214.00 to balance it out more even though it still does not add up correctly.

 

This is how i think she has come to £23,000 + £1,214.00 cash and the incorrect date of June 2009.

 

Off to work at 9am so will run in at lunch.....When will i have to get the defence posted monday? or can i Fax it through on the day?

 

Thanks everyone your amazing. xx

 

 

[Bigdebtor]

India

 

Do not try to second guess how she arrived at any figure. It could be taken by a claimant-friendly judge to be not a guess - but knowledge - i.e. the judge could suspect you KNOW she is right regarding both £23k and £1214 - which would be very harmful to you.

 

Just stick to the FACTS - you have evidence you only got £21k - and that you repaid £17k by bank transfer and other payments either in cash or to her credit card - all of which is detailed.

 

The key difference is YOU have all the details to hand - she has NONE - only a flawed memory, and a vindictive nature (usually a fatal combination if sussed out by the Judge).

 

As DD says there should be grounds here for a stike out - meaning that legally you need not pay her another penny - this would be poetic justice for her vindictiveness and dishonesty. DD also counselled that it was important things are done in the right order - to avoid her being able to come back for a second bite at you - so ensure you do NOTHING more without running it past this forum first.

 

Debs - I agree it's odd she no longer has bank statements - especially since she would have needed these to complete the current Tax Return (due by 31 January) - smacks of sloppyness or deliberate concealment of evidence which she knows contradicts her claim. Most good CA's would have insisted in seeing the original bank statements (and taken photo copies) in preparing he raccounts - that is IF she did actually get professionally prepared accounts at all! Incidentally the Sole Trader business WAS trading - it's just the Ltd Co (with exactly the same name?) that is claimed to have been dormant.

 

I have previously asked Indiana to check what her employment contract, Wage slips, P45 ad P60 says about who her employer actually was - Sole Trader or Ltd Co - whilst it may not be totally relevant it could be useful if it were to cast doubt on the Ltd Company's dormant status.

 

It also looks as if her business account was not correctly designated - it should have said Mrs R Horrible t/a Rogues N Vagabonds R Us - but seems to just say Rogues N Vagabonds R Us - which could also apply to a limited company trading with the same name - which could suggest she wanted to have her cake and eat it - security of claiming limited company protection with creditors but claiming personal ownership of debts along with lower costs of running as sole trader. However this is also speculation and irrelavant. It's just all the surrounding circumstantial evidence paints a picture of a very devious lady.

 

Indiana - hopefully recent posts have buoyed you up again. I would say the outcome now looks very positive for you - unless some rabbits are pulled out of her hat at the eleventh hour.

 

BD

 

PS - I know I harp on about it - but please do watch your spelling and grammar - especialy in anything which will be seen by the Judge - very important to create the right impression of someone who is careful and precise (and not sloppy with a "near enough is good enough" attitude).

Edited January 14, 2011 by Bigdebtor

[indianamachno]

I am dyslexic so really struggle with both ....i dont ming being corrected and i will check with anyone before I send anything... off to work !

[frettful38]

I wonder if the Claimants superiors are aware of this court action issued by the Claimant? may not be of any relevance but just a thought that if they did not then maybe indi could write and tell them what one of their people are doing.

[Bigdebtor]

Fretful

 

I don't understand? The claimant was the boss of the now defunct business - I don't think there has been anything to suggest she is now workling for someone else.

 

I think Indiana's best hope is the Claimant's Lwayer susses out the claim can't succeed (missing or contradictory bank statemenst etc.) and advises her to drop it - also risk of HMRC taking an interest in non decalred invcome (interest she has charged Indiana).

 

BD

[frettful38]

Fretful

 

I don't understand? The claimant was the boss of the now defunct business - I don't think there has been anything to suggest she is now workling for someone else.

 

I think Indiana's best hope is the Claimant's Lwayer susses out the claim can't succeed (missing or contradictory bank statemenst etc.) and advises her to drop it - also risk of HMRC taking an interest in non decalred invcome (interest she has charged Indiana).

 

BD

 

 

you don't understand BD well after reading this whole thread my mind has gone more emptier than before LOL

 

Anyway indi is lucky to have you & DD, she has her own Sherlock & Watson on the case and I wish you all success. Im off now to go and post some more confusing posts LOL!

[debbbbsy]

Indiana requested the statements on the 4 january, which would prove the case has merit.

 

She was told in her response that the client had requested them from the bank. Its now 14 january. She has had 10 days . Now, this is an important piece of her claim, I'm pretty sure, if she contacted her bank & explained that she needed a specific statement (afterall she has given a date in the POC) showing a substantial sum being transferred to a specific account,& she needed this for her solicitor. They would send it straightaway. If it was requested on the 4 jan, she should have it now.

 

Is it worth, sending the solicitor a really strong email/letter.

1. Pointing out that he should have ensured that his client had in her possession the statements when the claim was instigated.

2. It has been 10 days since he stated that they had been requested from the bank. Can he confirm he now has in his possession a statement showing that on or around (date) you recieved a payment of £23k.

3. If he has not been supplied with this vital document, which his client will rely upon to support her case:-

a) Stay the proceedings to give his client more time to comply (Afterall you made an official CPR request).

b) Withdraw the claim.

 

To ignore this request, and continue with the claim when he has admitted that he does not have documented proof that you recieved £23k, as stated in the POC. The action against you is both unlawful & vexatious, and will be brought to the attention of the courts.

Also, as you ( the Solicitor) has brought this action, has failed to ensure that the POC were accurate. If you do not advise your client to withdraw her unfounded claim, I will put in an official complaint about you personally to the Legal Complaints Service.

 

I think at this point, until she complies, don't admit anything. Don't offer anything.

[diddydicky]

i wouldnt advise any further contact with the sols now until the defence is submitted- together with an application for the claimant to provide better and full particulars of the claim to be answered