NHS/Social Services - should you pay for care

[bankoff]

Here is a useful link to anyone who finds themselves with an elderly relative having to go into a Nursing/Residential home and being told they have to sell their house to pay for it.

 

www.NHSCare.info

[queenjayne]

Great link there, thanks.

 

My mother is currently in hospital after a severe stroke two weeks ago. She is coming up for assessment (of recovery/ability/skills) soon and clearly will not be able to live on her own anymore. This means I am just entering this minefield.

 

Should I start a thread for this or just take it 'outside'... i.e. follow the link and keep it out of this forum?

 

Edit: starting own thread for this.

[bankoff]

From my own experience, it may take some time for them to rehabilitate your mother, so you don't have to worry just yet.

 

It will depend on your circumstances, there are a lot of angles on this. How well your mother does with the rehabilitation etc.

 

When they get to the point where they are asking you to find her somewhere to go, then be prepared to give them the run around. Don't agree to anything until you know what the implications are.

 

The are full of sh***t about rehabilitating and sending people home to cope, with their "so called" help with personal care at home.

 

They expected 1 person to put my mother to bed in 15 minutes, well if you have any experience of Dementia then you know that that is not achievable.

 

Good luck

[chaos5678]

I look after people in their own homes, working for an agency.

 

It's not the social services type of daily visit, sometimes we spend all day/night with a person.

 

From what I see, some people get massive amounts of care paid for and some stuggle with very little help.

 

The main difference seems to be that those who just say, "Sorry, can't manage" and don't change their story, seem to be the ones with the most help.

 

So my advice would be to get your local community nurse on side, as they wield a lot of power! and keep asking!

 

Good Luck

[Columbia]

Here is a useful link to anyone who finds themselves with an elderly relative having to go into a Nursing/Residential home and being told they have to sell their house to pay for it.

 

www.NHSCare.info

Just a small point here, this does NOT apply to residential care, which is not funded by the NHS. Also, not every person who needs to be in a nursing care home is eligible for fully funded care. In most cases, the nursing element of the care is funded by the NHS, but the board and lodging aspect is means tested to see what level of funding (if any) is needed from Social Services. If someone is self-funding, i.e. if they have savings of over £20,500 and/or a house to sell, then they will fund their own placement, minus the nursing element, until their funds drop to £20,00. At that point, Social Services will fund that part of the placement which is not covered by pension and any other benefits.

Social Services are generally seen as the big bad wolf in situations where someone cannot cope at home any longer and need permanent care, but they don't "force" someone to sell their house and then grab all the money, as a lot of people think.

I would think that the number of people who are able to make a successful claim for reimbursement of all nursing home fees from the NHS will not be as big as the above website would have you believe.

For more information about Continuing Care funding, you may want to have a look around this site. There's a lot of waffle and jargon, but if you dig enough, there is quite a bit in plain English!

[Rob Wills]

Visit my website www.freewebs.com/robjameswills for details and beware.

[bankoff]

Hi Columbia

 

I have visited the Doh site several times, only to find that the relevant piece of information HS 95 8 has been removed.

 

I wonder why?

 

Hi Rob

 

I have read your story, its awful. This is one of the reasons I wan't to keep my mother out of a Home.

[JonCris]

Just a small point here, this does NOT apply to residential care, which is not funded by the NHS. Also, not every person who needs to be in a nursing care home is eligible for fully funded care. In most cases, the nursing element of the care is funded by the NHS, but the board and lodging aspect is means tested to see what level of funding (if any) is needed from Social Services. If someone is self-funding, i.e. if they have savings of over £20,500 and/or a house to sell, then they will fund their own placement, minus the nursing element, until their funds drop to £20,00. At that point, Social Services will fund that part of the placement which is not covered by pension and any other benefits.

Social Services are generally seen as the big bad wolf in situations where someone cannot cope at home any longer and need permanent care, but they don't "force" someone to sell their house and then grab all the money, as a lot of people think.

I would think that the number of people who are able to make a successful claim for reimbursement of all nursing home fees from the NHS will not be as big as the above website would have you believe.

For more information about Continuing Care funding, you may want to have a look around this site. There's a lot of waffle and jargon, but if you dig enough, there is quite a bit in plain English!

 

Sorry my wife works in the field of issues involving the elderly & I have to tell you your wrong when you say they "don't force people to sell their property" they DO.

They have over the last few years caused people or their relatives at a very vunerable time in their lives to pay for 'social' care when the person was clearly entitled to 'nursing care'

 

My wife like many others throughout this country is in the proccess of recovering these unlawful charges which it is estimated amount to over 1 billion pounds. When you say it's not as bad as is claimed my wife alone in the last 6 weeks has recovered over 100k & thats just for 2 of her cleints.

The main reason why there is little being mentioned in the press is that like the banks & after causing their victims to jump through hoops & knowing it's very unlikely that they will have to pay any legal costs to the claimant (the claimant has to pay) they are settling behind the scenes after they have run out of excuses

 

She has also had cautions, unlawfully (placed by these councils) removed from the properties of these owners. These cautions have been placed without informing the owners only to come to light some years later at the time of either registration or worse still sale & causing the sale to fall through whilst months are spent getting councils to, very reluctantly, act within the law.

 

In one such case the charges being claimed via caution exceeded the property value by many thousands of pounds

[Rob Wills]

The authorities are the modern equivalent of the Nazi's.

 

Social Services' departments should be held to account by local MP's and Councillors; but regrettably in some local government areas, Oxfordshire being one, they are not interested.

[JonCris]

The authorities are the modern equivalent of the Nazi's.

 

Social Services' departments should be held to account by local MP's and Councillors; but regrettably in some local government areas, Oxfordshire being one, they are not interested.

 

I understand that local authorities can claim care home monies from the government equivilent to those sums they expect to collect from individuals at a later date. In other words if they can say we have cautions placed on property for ex amount they get subsidised by central government to that same amount.

 

Nice little incentive I suspect

[bankoff]

Hi JonChris

 

Nice to see I have someone on my side who knows about this awful situation. The NHS have called me in to an Assessment panel to decide if my mother is suitable for NHS Continuing care - well I know she is, she does nothing for herself, she needs constant care, and rarely knows who she is or who we are. She is up all night ranting and sleeps all day, she needs intervention when she gets a bit violent with her mood swings.

 

I am going to this armed with a copy of the HS 95 8 which I managed to get hold of, just in case they decide to bend the rules. Will also be taking someone with me.

 

Does your wife have any advice to offer. Have had lots of help from Stephen Squires who she probably knows.

[JonCris]

Hi JonChris

 

Nice to see I have someone on my side who knows about this awful situation. The NHS have called me in to an Assessment panel to decide if my mother is suitable for NHS Continuing care - well I know she is, she does nothing for herself, she needs constant care, and rarely knows who she is or who we are. She is up all night ranting and sleeps all day, she needs intervention when she gets a bit violent with her mood swings.

 

I am going to this armed with a copy of the HS 95 8 which I managed to get hold of, just in case they decide to bend the rules. Will also be taking someone with me.

 

Does your wife have any advice to offer. Have had lots of help from Stephen Squires who she probably knows.

 

Where is Stephen Squires based? The name sounds familar even to me.

 

She'll be home shortly & I'll ask her to go on line after tea. You do understand that any advice she gives will be "without prejudice as to liabilty"

 

Be warned I know of one occupant of a care home receiving nursing care who was caused at the behest of the local council & the home to sign a letter/agreement stating that she would pay. This agreement was witnessed by the homes manager & a care assistant. It was discovered 7 days after signing this document she was diagnosed as suffering from advanced acute dementia. Needless to say this person is now under the care of the Court of Protection & there may be a police investigation in the offing

[bankoff]

Thanks for that info.

 

Stephen Squires is very active on the NHSCareinfo site.

 

I have POA so they won't get past me.

 

Did you read RobWills story, really dreadful. Do these people really care or what?

 

I recently met up with the daughter of a lady in the next bed to my mother and she had gone into a home and had lost half her body weight and was covered in bed sores, they did not have the right equipment for her needs, and they did not bother to help her eat her food. Long, slow and painful death is what they seem to advovate in some places. And they have the cheek to charge upwards of £600 per week.

 

Well I think the situation that has been uncovered in Cornwall with the mentally handicapped says it all don't you.

[JonCris]

Thanks for that info.

 

Stephen Squires is very active on the NHSCareinfo site.

 

I have POA so they won't get past me.

 

Did you read RobWills story, really dreadful. Do these people really care or what?

 

I recently met up with the daughter of a lady in the next bed to my mother and she had gone into a home and had lost half her body weight and was covered in bed sores, they did not have the right equipment for her needs, and they did not bother to help her eat her food. Long, slow and painful death is what they seem to advovate in some places. And they have the cheek to charge upwards of £600 per week.

 

Well I think the situation that has been uncovered in Cornwall with the mentally handicapped says it all don't you.

 

The abuse & maltreatment of the elderly & mentally handicapped know's no bounds. The so called "caring" industry is riddled with those who abuse the sick & vunerable. I also blame those in the industry who are witness to what happens yet do nothing about it.

 

I do hope you reported the plight of the elderly patient you mention

[Chimera]

Having worked with social services/in the care industry for some time I know for a fact that you will be very lucky if you don't have to fight for what you are entitled to. Unfortunately, they won't offer it on a plate. You have to clue yourself up on what you need and what you can get, always ask for slightly more than you need, because they wil in most cases reduce it (make it realistic though - or they will dismiss it entirely!), and basically harass them until you get what you want, and I mean harass them.

 

I would always advise going to visit a few homes, until you find a good one - taking someone who has worked in care will always help, as they will easy spot the dodgy ones! Also, many good homes will help you apply for funds, and help you with the social services bit.

 

Get as much evidence as possible, keeping diaries is good, of all care needs, incidents etc. If you have evidence to back up why you need the service, and how many hours etc, it will all go in your favour - they will find it difficult to refuse. Unfortunately, it will mean quite a bit of work, keeping those records,but will be worth it. I am a bit clued up on this after having to record evidence for clients to get more care facilities from social services, if you need any help just ask and I will help if I can.

[JonCris]

Hi JonChris

 

Nice to see I have someone on my side who knows about this awful situation. The NHS have called me in to an Assessment panel to decide if my mother is suitable for NHS Continuing care - well I know she is, she does nothing for herself, she needs constant care, and rarely knows who she is or who we are. She is up all night ranting and sleeps all day, she needs intervention when she gets a bit violent with her mood swings.

 

I am going to this armed with a copy of the HS 95 8 which I managed to get hold of, just in case they decide to bend the rules. Will also be taking someone with me.

 

Does your wife have any advice to offer. Have had lots of help from Stephen Squires who she probably knows.

 

My wife will respond tomorrow but she has mentioned that you might like to think about applying to the Court of Protection to become your mothers guardian. It'll cost about £1,000 in court fees but will safeguard her in that any decisions by others must be approved by you before they can be implimented.

 

Its not unknown for local authorities to seek guardianship of a mentally incapacited patient if the relatives are proving difficult to handle & you may wish to get in 1st

[JonCris]

Watch Panorama on Sunday 23rd Interesting programme Bound to cause a stir...again

[bankoff]

Will be watching Panorama with interest. Have just been for a prelim meeting before Assessment.

 

They insist that Social Services be present at the assessment. They say it is because of the Coughlin case. I did ask if I could request that they are not there. The answer was no, as usual.

 

Nothing changed there then.

[JonCris]

Will be watching Panorama with interest. Have just been for a prelim meeting before Assessment.

 

They insist that Social Services be present at the assessment. They say it is because of the Coughlin case. I did ask if I could request that they are not there. The answer was no, as usual.

 

Nothing changed there then.

 

Record Panorama & take it with you. If it looks like going against you tell them you have a copy & if they would like to watch to see where they are going wrong could they supply a video/dvd player.

 

Only kidding but you could in casual conversation at the start mention you have watched it.

[Columbia]

I'm sorry JonChris, but if you really think that all Social Services departments are in the business of ripping off elderly people and stealing all their money, then you are very deluded. Do you think there aren't also, on the other side of the coin, many greedy relatives who are desperately trying to protect their "inheritance", when in most cases they have a good income and houses of their own.

Yes it would be wonderful if everyone got free nursing and residential care, but the country can't afford it. Where is the money supposed to come from? For example, would you go to a soup kitchen for free food when you can perfectly well afford to go and buy some at the shops? No? Didn't think so. Then why can't people see that the structure of contributions for care are there to protect the poorest people, the ones who have nothing, and not through their own fault. Not everyone owns their own house, or had a well paid career with a decent pension at the end of it, not everyone has been able to build up substantial savings.

Nobody is asking the better off patients to pay the fees for poorer people, but to pay their own fees; and no matter how much money they have, they can STILL claim Attendance Allowance to put towards the fees, and as I said before, the NURSING element of the care is funded by the PCT, regardless of how much they have.

I have worked with older people for several years now, and have seen some appalling stunts pulled by relatives, including forcing people with advanced dementia to sign legal and financial documents, when they clearly have no capacity to do so; I've seen relatives salting away large amounts of their parents' savings to avoid paying for care. I know that not all relatives do this, it's a small number; see the connection? For every one person who is dissatisfied, there are lots more who have no complaint.

It sickens me when social workers are slated continually by the papers and other ill-informed people, (who have often got their "information" from disgruntled relatives secondhand).

Sorry if this offends anyone, but I care deeply for the people I work with and it makes me very angry to have social workers constantly pilloried. I for one, do everything I can to protect the vulnerable people I deal with, but sadly it's only the bad examples that get into the news. We all know that good social work doesn't sell papers.

Please remember also, that the Nursing element of the fees is the responsibility of the PCT, not Social Services.

[gizmo111]

", It sickens me when social workers are slated continually by the papers and other ill-informed people, (who have often got their "information" from disgruntled relatives secondhand).

Sorry if this offends anyone, but I care deeply for the people I work with and it makes me very angry to have social workers constantly pilloried. I for one, do everything I can to protect the vulnerable people I deal with, but sadly it's only the bad examples that get into the news. We all know that good social work doesn't sell papers.

Please remember also, that the Nursing element of the fees is the responsibility of the PCT, not Social Services.

 

I totally agree, i work with children and am sick of being run down by the media, my father is at present terminally ill and social services ahve liased with the NHS for him to have all his fees paid under CHC -

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/

[JonCris]

I'm sorry JonChris, but if you really think that all Social Services departments are in the business of ripping off elderly people and stealing all their money, then you are very deluded. Do you think there aren't also, on the other side of the coin, many greedy relatives who are desperately trying to protect their "inheritance", when in most cases they have a good income and houses of their own.

Yes it would be wonderful if everyone got free nursing and residential care, but the country can't afford it. Where is the money supposed to come from? For example, would you go to a soup kitchen for free food when you can perfectly well afford to go and buy some at the shops? No? Didn't think so. Then why can't people see that the structure of contributions for care are there to protect the poorest people, the ones who have nothing, and not through their own fault. Not everyone owns their own house, or had a well paid career with a decent pension at the end of it, not everyone has been able to build up substantial savings.

Nobody is asking the better off patients to pay the fees for poorer people, but to pay their own fees; and no matter how much money they have, they can STILL claim Attendance Allowance to put towards the fees, and as I said before, the NURSING element of the care is funded by the PCT, regardless of how much they have.

I have worked with older people for several years now, and have seen some appalling stunts pulled by relatives, including forcing people with advanced dementia to sign legal and financial documents, when they clearly have no capacity to do so; I've seen relatives salting away large amounts of their parents' savings to avoid paying for care. I know that not all relatives do this, it's a small number; see the connection? For every one person who is dissatisfied, there are lots more who have no complaint.

It sickens me when social workers are slated continually by the papers and other ill-informed people, (who have often got their "information" from disgruntled relatives secondhand).

Sorry if this offends anyone, but I care deeply for the people I work with and it makes me very angry to have social workers constantly pilloried. I for one, do everything I can to protect the vulnerable people I deal with, but sadly it's only the bad examples that get into the news. We all know that good social work doesn't sell papers.

Please remember also, that the Nursing element of the fees is the responsibility of the PCT, not Social Services.

 

Then I should tell your mates because there are an awful lot who don't know & are forcing people to sell their homes quite unlawfully. Also your comments about they should by paying for their care. What the hell have they been doing by paying their taxes & rates most of their lives. Most have already paid & handsomely at that to be given the care which you claim they should pay for a second time.

 

Also you may be a caring carer but having been involved for many many years with the elderly I can tell you there are many who are not. I can also tell you I DO know what I'm talking about. What angers me are the times when dreadful treament is exposed it is found that very often those "caring" staff who are aware of it don't report it but turn a blind eye. Those I consider as guilty as the perpetrators.

 

I suggest you watch Panorama tonight. You might just learn something

[JonCris]

I totally agree, i work with children and am sick of being run down by the media, my father is at present terminally ill and social services ahve liased with the NHS for him to have all his fees paid under CHC -

 

I'm truly very pleased for you but need to watch Panorama tonight to see that you are one of the few as many terminally ill patients aren't so lucky

[Columbia]

Then I should tell your mates because there are an awful lot who don't know & are forcing people to sell their homes quite unlawfully. Also your comments about they should by paying for their care. What the hell have they been doing by paying their taxes & rates most of their lives. Most have already paid & handsomely at that to be given the care which you claim they should pay for a second time.

 

I suggest you watch Panorama tonight. You might just learn something

Firstly, please don't patronise me; there is no need for that. I know what I'm talking about, as I work with elderly people who need care of one kind or another. That's my job, so please don't presume that I'm ignorant just because I don't agree with what you say. There are two sides to every story, and the law of this country is that if people have above a certain amount of assets, then they pay for their care, except the nursing element, which is paid by the PCT. In some cases, where the need for nursing care is wholly due to a HEALTH need, necessitating nursing intervention on a daily basis; then that care is FULLY funded by the PCT under Continuing Care.

In the case of someone who has been detained under Section 3 of the Mental Health Act, then they qualify for fully funded care by the local authority for their mental health needs. This is called Section 117 Aftercare.

What about all the people who also paid their taxes and rates, but never earned enough to buy a house or have savings? What should we do with them when they need looking after? Bring back the workhouse? If people like say, Alan Sugar, or Robbie Williams or the Queen needed to be in a nursing home in the future, would you think they should be there for nothing?

[JonCris]

Firstly, please don't patronise me; there is no need for that. I know what I'm talking about, as I work with elderly people who need care of one kind or another. That's my job, so please don't presume that I'm ignorant just because I don't agree with what you say. There are two sides to every story, and the law of this country is that if people have above a certain amount of assets, then they pay for their care, except the nursing element, which is paid by the PCT. In some cases, where the need for nursing care is wholly due to a HEALTH need, necessitating nursing intervention on a daily basis; then that care is FULLY funded by the PCT under Continuing Care.

In the case of someone who has been detained under Section 3 of the Mental Health Act, then they qualify for fully funded care by the local authority for their mental health needs. This is called Section 117 Aftercare.

What about all the people who also paid their taxes and rates, but never earned enough to buy a house or have savings? What should we do with them when they need looking after? Bring back the workhouse? If people like say, Alan Sugar, or Robbie Williams or the Queen needed to be in a nursing home in the future, would you think they should be there for nothing?

 

You claim to know all about it when you clearly don't.

You state that nursing care is fully funded if their primary need is health care. This shows that as a health professional which yoy claim to be you have little understanding of the law which actully states if there is ANY need for nursing care then all care has to be fully funded & its this which is being ignored by the authorities.

 

When challenged authorities are having to refund millions of pounds which has been by unlawful means. As I have previously stated my wife has in the last few weeks recovered 100K just for 2 of her clients

 

Of course if you want to ignore whats going on then that's you choice but please dont tell me that it isn't & on a major scale.

 

As for Elton John etc, I'm not into the politics of envy & yes if they needed nursing care I would expect the state to pay