Being prosecuted for sitting in first class with standard ticket - help!

[Stevo1735]

Thanks guys. So when applying for a job, when asked about ever being charged with a criminal offence would I have to say yes? If so is that not the same as having a criminal record? By the way stigy thanks for clarifying what you meant, and you are correct, I've never been in this situation before. Cheers.

[Stigy]

Thanks guys. So when applying for a job, when asked about ever being charged with a criminal offence would I have to say yes? If so is that not the same as having a criminal record? By the way stigy thanks for clarifying what you meant, and you are correct, I've never been in this situation before. Cheers.

I'm not entirely sure, although I'd say yes, but go in to detail when they ask you about it (usually in a box on an application for specifically for your explanation...). Depending on the job, some companies ask for declarations of CCJs etc, which wouldn't necessarily show up if they checked for themselves using a Disclosure check.

[Stevo1735]

So what does the "not recordable" that SRPO mentioned mean then? I was kind of hoping that meant what it sounds like!

[Stigy]

So what does the "not recordable" that SRPO mentioned mean then? I was kind of hoping that meant what it sounds like!

A recordable offence conviction can, although not necessarily will end up on the PNC. Anything punishable by potential imprisonment I believe, aswell as a couple of other wildcards, as I said before getting my wires crossed with Recordable and Criminal offences.

[SRPO]

A non-recordable offence is not put on PNC (in the old days would have meant not recorded at the Criminal Record Office.)

As I posted a little while ago, I heard a Statutory Declaration where the applicant said they found out about their conviction for a non-recordable byelaw offence when it showed up on a CRB check.

Make of that what you will.

[Stevo1735]

Sounds like I would still have to declare it then, so I'm still stuffed. Thanks for your time and help though guys, much appreciated. I ll write back and explain the mitigating circumstances and plead for them to settle out of court. I doubt it will do any good, but I've got to try. This seems so unfair, I pay 4 and a half grand a year (for years) and they prosecute me for a being in the wrong place on a packed-out train - meaning I'll lose my job and any future jobs in the same line of work. Anyway, I ll let you know how I get on. By the way, should I follow the letter with a phonecall as well or just leave it to the letter? Cheers.

[Stigy]

Sounds like I would still have to declare it then, so I'm still stuffed. Thanks for your time and help though guys, much appreciated. I ll write back and explain the mitigating circumstances and plead for them to settle out of court. I doubt it will do any good, but I've got to try. This seems so unfair, I pay 4 and a half grand a year (for years) and they prosecute me for a being in the wrong place on a packed-out train - meaning I'll lose my job and any future jobs in the same line of work. Anyway, I ll let you know how I get on. By the way, should I follow the letter with a phonecall as well or just leave it to the letter? Cheers.

 

It's really not as bleak as you think. If you're already in a secure job, they're not going to sack you for something like this, afterall, you haven't killed anybody! I doubt it'll effect future work, either! Although I have no first hand experience with FCC, I would say it's in their best interest to settle the matter out of court, if at all! You could always go to the papers...Or not...

 

Look forward to hearing the outcome!

[Stevo1735]

Thank you stigy for your re-assurance. I hope you're right. I will certainly let you all know what happens. Thank you again for your time, you've been of great help.

[stephenie]

I read many posts on numerous websites I haven't seen anyone getting sacked over this and many said this type of offence did not affect them looking for employment later on either. Don't worry so much, it's not biggest offence in the world. write a nice letter to explain and offer to pay any cost incurred and hopefully you won't even get the criminal record.

good luck but I think you'll be fine!

[Wriggler7]

Stephanie is 99% right. 'No one gets sacked' for a thing like this.

 

I know one man who did, but his circunstances were 'odd'. His fare evasion involved a ticket bought by his employers, his job involved high elements of trust, and his contract made it clear that he had to tell his employer of any Court appearances.

 

He did not inform the employer. They heard about the Court case, and asked him if there was anything they needed to know. He said 'no'. They then specifically asked him if he had any convictions. He said 'No'. They said "What about these two cases?" Then they sacked him, it has subsequently gone through appeal and an industrial tribunal. He is still sacked, but for 'not declaring'.

[rebel11]

Hi Stevo1735

 

Find out who the Managing Director of the train company is and ask why your paying him £4,500 each year. I suspect thats a good percentage of your salary.

Explain what happened, tell him that you don't want his help in your current predictment, but your very angry at this current state of affairs, so much so that

your looking to 'car share' as it's more cost effective and also you don't fall into the 'Train Compaines Trap's' when common sense should preveil. Tell him not

to worry too much about the loss of revenue, your sure they'll make up some where, some how.

[RPI]

The whole first class issue is a difficult one as an inspector, particularly on trains which are DOO (Driver Operated Only, no guard), as an inspector you will never keep everyone happy in these situations if you do nothing then mr 1st class who is probably friends with one of the directors will kick off, if you enforce the rules then you will probably get half the train kick off at you, whilst there is the argument that the std passenger has paid £4k a year it is highly likely that the 1st class passenger has paid in excess of £10k on some Intercity routes which is why 1st class passengers will complain, at the end of the day if you'd paid £10k a year for 1st class but on a daily basis see std passengers sat in there you may wonder what the point is in buying 1st class!

 

I know FGW have now put notices up in the vestibules of the 1st class coaches on the HST's warning of the consequences of standing in the vestibules with std tickets, although most of the abuse on FGW is lazy Reading commuters who get on at the last minute and want to be first to get of at Reading and out the station as the exit is by the first class coaches, saving themselves frobably about 20 seconds in doing so but managing to p*ss off everyone in 1st class by standing on the mat that keeps the vestibule door open and getting in the way of the trolley service!

[Stevo1735]

Thanks guys, am going to write the letter of explaination this afternoon. Not sure about the letter to the md though as I don't think he ll give a damn anyway. I must admit that I didn't notice the warning signs about prosecution/imprisonment etc on the front of the first class compartment on the morning in question but I have noticed them on other trains since. Anyway, I'm hoping that my mitigating circumstances will lead to a common sense settlement, rather than going to court. Thanks guys and I'll keep you informed when I hear back. I may also call them later in the week, but think I should let the letter explain the circumstances first. Cheers.

[rebel11]

Unfortunately, that doesn't stack up. What percentage of customers are First Class?, what percentage of customers are Second Class? what percentage of First Class customers are inconveinenced? what percentage of Second Class customers are inconveinenced?

 

The whole first class issue is a difficult one as an inspector, particularly on trains which are DOO (Driver Operated Only, no guard), as an inspector you will never keep everyone happy in these situations if you do nothing then mr 1st class who is probably friends with one of the directors will kick off, if you enforce the rules then you will probably get half the train kick off at you, whilst there is the argument that the std passenger has paid £4k a year it is highly likely that the 1st class passenger has paid in excess of £10k on some Intercity routes which is why 1st class passengers will complain, at the end of the day if you'd paid £10k a year for 1st class but on a daily basis see std passengers sat in there you may wonder what the point is in buying 1st class!

 

I know FGW have now put notices up in the vestibules of the 1st class coaches on the HST's warning of the consequences of standing in the vestibules with std tickets, although most of the abuse on FGW is lazy Reading commuters who get on at the last minute and want to be first to get of at Reading and out the station as the exit is by the first class coaches, saving themselves frobably about 20 seconds in doing so but managing to p*ss off everyone in 1st class by standing on the mat that keeps the vestibule door open and getting in the way of the trolley service!

[RPI]

There is a higher percentage of std passengers but there is a much higher yield from First class, i.e. 1 1st class coach on a High Speed Train can potentially earn the TOC double the amount of a std coach but from only a third of the passengers, I do accept however that there is far more justification in having first class on Intercity routes than on suburban routes such as those operated by FCC.

[dx100uk]

can i just say that on the front of a crb check be it ehnanced or otherwise, you cannot get sacked from an existing position nor [solely] be refused a job because of a marker. [unless its the obvious child thingy one]

 

there is a thread on this here somewhere on CAG.

 

dx

[Old-CodJA]

The breach of Byelaw is what is known as a 'strict liability offence'. The law says don't do it, so you must not. If you do, you are deemed to be guilty of the offence, but there is no requirement to establish criminal intent and therefore, the penalty is less onerous.

 

The level of fine that may be applied on conviction is the same, but because there is no element of intent, any Court will consider the starting point at which they calculate a fine on conviction at a lower entry point.

 

For instance, conviction in serious cases of intent to avoid a fare (RRA (1889) Sect 5.3.c) can carry a maximum penalty of imprisonment. Conviction for a Byelaw offence cannot.

 

The entry level for a conviction in the case of a (RRA (1889) Sect 5.3.a) matter will be a fine of around £350 (equal to 1 weeks average earnings) and intent has to be proven.

 

Entry level for a conviction in the case of a Byelaw offence will start at around £175 (half a weeks average earnings on the same scale of fines) because there is no element of intent.

 

Hope that's clear?

 

.

[Stevo1735]

Thanks for that, yes it seems clear. I'm hoping though that it won't come to that though, and that they ll use common sense. I have replied to their intent to prosecute notice explaining (in detail!) the mitigating circumstances. Have also spoken to my GP and, knowing my medical circumstances and history, he's very supportive of my cause and happy to get involved if they don't see reason. Surely reason will prevail? Who knows, let's see... Cheers.

[rebel11]

Hi Stevo

 

Hopefully they will see sense, a question, what % of First Class seats were being occupied when you were in the First Class carriage?

[Stevo1735]

I suppose about 5 out of 10 seats were taken, of which 3 of them had standard class tickets and had their details taken (Inc me). There were about 4 or 5 standard class people standing in first class after a while because of the overcrowding in standard class. The inspector gave them permission when they asked, as he was writing my details.... You couldn't make it up, could you!

[Stevo1735]

By the way, the first class compartment was very small, and the inspector could hardly move as he was writing me up, for the standard class passengers standing in first class!

[rebel11]

Hi Stevo

 

I'm thinking Ealing comedy or Carry On:oops:

[Stevo1735]

I know, it was farcical...

[Old-CodJA]

I agree that to many people such a situation might seem farcial and I would have expected the inspector to use a bit of discretion and declassify the first class. However, staff may well be under pressure not to do so from management and there would be the usual whinge from some other quarters too.

 

I am no fan of class segregation on short commuter journeys, but the business case for first class on longer inter city routes has been well made

 

Being likely to be charged as the strict liability matter it is very likely that a conviction will ensue if it goes to Court. The legal precedent is the case of Gillingham v Walker (1881) where the traveller was found to be in First Class with a Second (now standard) class ticket. The judgement recorded that 'the traveller had not paid his fare.' The fare due is the first class fare.

 

The rules in relation to Standard Class Season tickets are clear and unambiguous and are indicated as accepted and understood at the time of purchase. There is a specific rule that states standard class seasons are not valid in first class and that if a traveller is found to be travelling in first class with a standard class ticket, that traveller will be treated as if no ticket is held.

 

The acceptance of mitigating factors by the Magistrates may result in a conditional discharge, but it is likely that costs and the First Class fare could still be awarded to the rail company.

Edited October 1, 2010 by Old-CodJA

[Stevo1735]

So the same would apply then if someone was having a heart attack...?