Rae's ESA...

[RaeUK]

Thanks guys!

 

Received my ESA50 today, so I'll have some jolly Bank Holiday fun completing it.

I am curious, though, as to just how much influence ATOSH have over decisions which - I thought - were made by a DWP Decision Maker.

I note that my medical questionnaire was not sent to me by the DWP but by ATOSH. And the address to return it to is the local address for that nefarious organisation. Therefore I am assuming that ATOSH will go through my ESA50 and NOT a DWP Decision Maker. Likewise I'm assuming it will be ATOSH themselves who decide if I need a 'medical' assessment. This reads like a licence to print money for that inept private organisation.

Have I misinterpreted anything?

Best wishes

Rae

[speedfreek]

That's what I'm readring atm.

 

All claims now go through ATOS who use an 'Approved HCP' to decide if your criteria meet those to be called in for medical.

 

There's a lot of chatter about this on DLA/IB boards as it circumnavigates/contradicts exiasting regulations. Everybody now gets an IB50. ATOS then makes the decision if a medical is needed and advises. So.....Basically everybody now is no longer exempt from a medical (in all probability) no matter what they have previously been told or excemption from which has been awarded.

 

1st they erroded civil liberties, next they came for the unemployed, then they went for the sick and disabled, lastly they went for the foreigners and put everybody into forced labour camps for there own good and the good of the nation.

 

Rise of National Socialism 1930's Germany or New Labour UK 2000?

 

I for one welcome our new ATOS Overlords

[loan_ranger]

1st they erroded civil liberties, next they came for the unemployed, then they went for the sick and disabled, lastly they went for the foreigners and put everybody into forced labour camps for there own good and the good of the nation.

 

Rise of National Socialism 1930's Germany or New Labour UK 2000?

 

I for one welcome our new ATOS Overlords

My thoughts exactly too, as said on my blog. Welfare to Work = Welfare to Destitution

 

If you've not already seen it, please see another of my posts. http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/benefits-tax-credits-minimum/255138-esa-atos-ask-leaders-3.html#post2904119

 

Best regards, Paul.

[speedfreek]

Apologies to Op for this mini hijack

 

LR you might be interested in these folks Flexible New Deal Provider Information & Flexible New Deal Scandal

 

My FND sanction warning letters are on there:-D

[loan_ranger]

Cheers speedfreek, I very frequently visit the FND blog and I enjoyed its predecessor which A4e boss Emma Bankbalance managed to close.

 

this turned up in my inbox today:

Recruitment boss feels the benefits of getting unemployed back to work | Business | The Guardian

 

This article is pure bile, talking about how amazing A4e is and its

great 1-to-1 style of getting people back to work (you try putting

"walking across the millenium bridge" as a job step and see what

happens). This is undoubtably the line media and the Govt will be

taking once FND is rolled out further and the kind of propaganda our

campaigns will be fighting against

 

Anyone who is with A4e, campaigning against them or has any

experiences should write in and show how a ridicolous a lie this all

is and give the reality of what the FND is meaning for people.

Regards, Paul. Edited April 30, 2010 by loan_ranger
added content and link

[talkshowhost112]

My girlfriend was on ESA due to health problems. She was sent for an assessment, and because she walked into the assessment room carrying a larger than normal bag, she was denied her claim. The "expert" decided that as she could lift this bag, she was capable of work. (he didn't een ask what was in the bag=- could have been solid steel or feathers) during the period leading up to her appeal, she was diagnosed with COPD, which restricts her activities. This was sent to the appeal board with the view that her appeal hearing might be cancelled and common sense take over. Too simple, more tax payers money was wasted as 3 overpaid experts were assembled to decide that they would overturn the decision, (when a letter would have done the trick). I can't understand why, if a doctor, who is medically qualified to assess your health, and in most cases, knows you as well as you know yourself, signs you off on the sick, this decision can be overturned.

[RaeUK]

You'd have thought, talkshowhost, wouldn't you? I've been with the same GP for over a decade. But, at the moment, GPs are kept out of the loop and can be unfairly ignored in favour of ATOSH. What a ridiculous system!

How is your girlfriend? COPD is a seriously underrated disease.

Best wishes to you both

Rae

[talkshowhost112]

The point I am trying to make here, is that if the "xperts" at the tribunal, can overturn a doctor's diagnosis, why then should we trust a doctor or the health service. I too, having worked for 45 years have found myself out of work and on ESA for sickness. I was sent for an examination and the doctor put me thru the routine and declared that I was incapable of work. Two months later, I was sent for another examination but this time the doctor, to whom I answered the same questions with the same answers, decided that I was not entitled to ESA. So who does one believe. The strange thing here, also, is that both Doctors gave me a physical exam. ( I suffer from Heart Disease, Angina, and Severe Sciatica), yet the main reason why my own Doctor signed me off was for Depression, which was never mentioned once during my examination. My depression is as a direct result of having heart failure 3 years ago, and then losing my job only made my Depression worse. Dealing with these idiots doesn't help either.

Kind of you to ask about my girlfriend. Since she won her appeal she has been left alone, but our main worry is the disease itself, on a few occasions I've had to take her to A & E for oxygen, and it make her quite lethargic.

[RaeUK]

I'm losing track of which thread to update so I'll stick with the 'back to the future' one as the title is most appropriate...

 

Had a letter over the weekend in response to my MPs writing to the CEO of the JCP on my behalf.

 

Have to admit it was a really good letter. It impressed me. For all the wrong reasons.

 

For those who may not know me so well - which is just about everyone - I have a long pedigree with the English Language. At the moment I spend a lot of time writing letters on behalf of the vulnerable over in the bailiff forum. The way I look at it is simply this: I can't work at present, the tax payers are paying for me and writing for the vulnerable is my way of giving back to society. Everybodies happy.

 

Having spent many years in a semi civil service workplace I'm well versed in beaurocratic spiel. [Which is why I thought the response was so good!]

 

It was written in what I would call modern beaurocratic. It was clear, simple, easy to read. Apologetic even. But still, skillfully, completely managing to avoid answering any point that had been raised. Wonderfull work to behold I can assure you!

 

Included was the promise of a [small] token payment for the stress I had been put through. A well buttered piece of bread indeed. Said token, once received, will be withdrawn from my bank and returned with my response. Desperate as I may be financially, I'll not be accepting their pieces of silver to forego my duty to the disabled and long term sick. Thank you very much.

 

I'm sorry to be a little vague on actual content, but please remember that it isn't just eager Caggers who read these public forums. Some 'guests' will eminate from the sour underbelly of the JCP [No offense meant to honest JCP posters...]

 

Clearly, this is just the first round of letter tennis between myself and the Directors of JCP. Damned fine opening volley though...

 

Best wishes

Rae

[RaeUK]

Sorry to drag you here under what could almost be false pretences - I just wanted a bit of a whinge! I'm sure we're all entitled to one every now and again...

 

*sigh* Hoop number 456. The Naughty Step.

 

I was somewhat surprised to receive a P45 in the post today. At a time when my legs are beginning to be more rebellious than usual, I did think this is probably the most useless piece of correspondence I've ever received. Unexpectedly or otherwise. I - briefly I must add - considered that the only way to get value from it would be to sautee it in a little butter. But, even then, I suspect the nutritional benefit would prove negligible.

So I telephoned my local BDC instead.

It would appear my ESA50 was received 24hrs after the deadline. After spending weeks filling the blessed thing in as accurately and honestly as possible, dilligently photocopying my supporting evidence etc, my claim has been stopped.

I don't suppose the little cherubs would appreciate my noting that the form was probably received in plenty of time and it is, in fact, the length of time between it being received and being entered on the all-powerfull computer that I have fallen foul of.

I now have to write a letter to a DM. A begging letter. A pleading letter. A letter that kow-tows so low that he or she will simply tut loudly, patronisingly pat me on the head and wave a disparaging finger before allowing my claim to proceed.

It means that I will have a week or two without food. But that doesn't matter. Not when the mighty government sends you to the naughty step. Clearly, bread and dripping would be far too good for a master criminal such as I.

Oh well, I've only been on the assessment rate since November 2008...

Best wishes

Rae

 

Ah. That feels better ...

[paulb1310]

Did you send the form by recorded delivery? If so you can get proof of the the day it was delivered and therefore received by the jobcentre plus. If it was delayed getting from office a to office b that isn't your problem as the date it was signed for must be the date it was received.

[hendo001]

ahh Rae u too have fallen foul of the ESA DM's eh?

 

I'm gonna start a new thread about my esa so I wont hijack ur thread.

 

good luck hun, hopefully they will see sense and it will get them to do the job properly.

[ANDYANDFLO]

Did you send the form by recorded delivery? If so you can get proof of the the day it was delivered and therefore received by the jobcentre plus. If it was delayed getting from office a to office b that isn't your problem as the date it was signed for must be the date it was received.

 

Ahhhh!!!! now don't you go and fall into that trap of thinking that Recorded Delivery is the be all and end all of evidence of receipt/delivery!!!!!

 

Been there & got the tee-shirt!! The post goes to a central sorting office first and thence it is opened. Eventually it finds it's way to the right office after some to-ing and fro-ing.

 

It is there that it is recorded as being delivered, not when it is 'dumped' at the sorting office - which I understand is still part of the Post Office days earlier. I have had this in that everything I send to the DWP goes by Recorded Delivery - well it did!! It doesn't make a difference at all. The DWP will only take responsibility for a document after it has arrived in their office. I have lost so many documents in the past 9 months and all I am told is to complain to the Post Office NOT them!!!

 

Forget the 75p - it makes not a scrap of difference at all!!!!!

Sorry.

[loan_ranger]

Sorry to hear of that Rae, It's nothing short of harassment, it's like psychological warfare. I hope that you can tell your M.P. and get him to write a letter of complaint.

 

Regards, Paul.

[ee-bee]

ah rae,thats really unfair,get straight onto your mp,he seems to be quite good for you,x

[ErikaPNP]

I don't suppose the little cherubs would appreciate my noting that the form was probably received in plenty of time and it is, in fact, the length of time between it being received and being entered on the all-powerfull computer that I have fallen foul of.

 

If this is the case it is very easy to prove. The DWP use a secure mail opening service. Every item that passes through it is date stamped with the date it arrives and in which office. Even where an item has been delivered to the wrong office, if it is still an "appropriate office" (this is any office within DWP) it is to be treated as having been received on the date of the first date stamp. For example if a claim was sent to Glasgow in error and date stamped 01/06/2010 but didn't arrive at its true destination - London until 12/06/2010, it's still the 01/06/2010 which is the date of claim. Even if the DM enters the application on the computer system on 16/06/2010, they can change the date of receipt to 01/06/2010. The only exception to this is where there is no signature on the item as a postal claim without a signature is not valid.

 

If they refuse to accept your begging letter, ask for a photocopy of your ESA50 with the date stamps showing.

[paulb1310]

Taking this from a different viewpoint – lets say that you have failed to attend an IB or ESA medical and you argue that you have not received the letter with the date for the medical.

The DWP will normally rely on regulation 8(3) of the Social Security (Incapacity for Work) (General) Regulations 1995, when read with section 7 of the Interpretation Act 1978, creates a presumption of deemed service where a document has been properly addressed and posted.

Section 7 of the Interpretation Act 1978 states:

“Where an Act passed after the commencement of this Act authorises or requires any document to be served by post, whether the expression ‘serve’, or the expression ‘give’ or ‘send’, or any other expression is used, then, unless the contrary intention appears, the service shall be deemed to be effected by properly addressing, prepaying, and posting a letter containing the document, and unless the contrary is proved to have been effected at the time at which the letter would be delivered in the ordinary course of post.”

Try to argue this works for the poor old claimant and they won’t have it. Classic case of one law for them and one for us.

The DWP use mail handling centres. Caselaw has said that these can be considered as a relevant office. So if you send something by recorded delivery to a DWP mail centre and they get it you can assume they open it and from there the DWP received it. If it gets lost before they sign for it then Royal Mail are to blame, if it gets lost after they sign for it then I would argue that they have received it.

[speedfreek]

Sorry I'm hijacking.

 

Paul maybe you can DVLA lose court battle over SORN

 

Sorry again for hijack please do not respond to this post as it's well off topic and doesn't really help Rae! Thank you and apologies again.

 

P.s. Good luck Rae

[RaeUK]

No apologies required! This is one of those rare 'open' threads as I've had my whinge and feel all the better for it. So please feel free to go as off-topic as you like and have a good natter!

 

I was a little surprised because I always post from the main sorting office and have never had anything arrive late or go astray from there before.

The person at the BDC [and, to be fair, they are always nice pleasant and helpfull] mentioned that something delayed in the mail isn't usually deemed a good enough reason for a late application. Unfortunately, for better or worse, I have an overwhelming propensity to tell the truth. So all I can state in my letter is that I posted the form in good faith and in what I thought was good time. That letters posted now and - theoretically! - should be received tomorrow. Fingers crossed...

Thanks for the comments.

Best wishes

Rae

[paulb1310]

A delay in the mail due to industrial action is a good reason. If the Royal Mail don't deliver a first class letter as they should then you can't really blame anyone but the Royal Mail. I once questioned them about failing to deliver mail and they said that paying for postage was just inviting them to deliver it and they had no duty to do so unless it was registered or special delivery. Of course, not stated in black and white!

[ErikaPNP]

No apologies required! This is one of those rare 'open' threads as I've had my whinge and feel all the better for it. So please feel free to go as off-topic as you like and have a good natter!

 

I was a little surprised because I always post from the main sorting office and have never had anything arrive late or go astray from there before.

The person at the BDC [and, to be fair, they are always nice pleasant and helpfull] mentioned that something delayed in the mail isn't usually deemed a good enough reason for a late application. Unfortunately, for better or worse, I have an overwhelming propensity to tell the truth. So all I can state in my letter is that I posted the form in good faith and in what I thought was good time. That letters posted now and - theoretically! - should be received tomorrow. Fingers crossed...

Thanks for the comments.

Best wishes

Rae

 

Crap! Not you - them. Something delayed in the mail can be good enough reason where for example, there have been public holidays or mail strikes or anything else which would suggest on the balance of probability that the claimant posted the form in time for it to arrive within the prescribed period.

 

The reason why mail gets lost so easily is because in the mail opening service, all items are initially scanned for potential injurous objects or chemicals, then once that is done they are opened and sorted into the corresponding offices - it is amazing the things I have come across in helping people with their claims. I've seen forms go from several districts nowhere near each other before turning up at their rightful destination. I've seen supporting evidence become detached from letters/claim forms and being sent to a completely irrelevant place and sadly I've come across many cases where the mail simply disappears into the abyss somewhere.

 

The sad thing is now that many BDC's have to use the postal address of the sorting office (a PO box) rather than the office address. Therefore arguing that a recorded delivery letter has arrived at the BDC doesn't cut ice as it has arrived at the destination it was sent which is actually the sorting office. It is supposed to be the case that mail arrival at the MOU is arrival at DWP but try arguing it. Nightmare.

 

Another ATOS, really - it isn't working, change it!

 

With the mail opening service there are too fingers in the pie. Far too many departments handle it before it actually arrives at the destination it should. I can understand why they use an MOU but part of me does wonder that if they stopped contracting out and invested in premises, equipment and staff themselves whether they would save an awful lot of money. In addition, it would increase their accountability and to be frank things would probably go missing far less often because of that. A lot of the issues in DWP arise from contractors. ATOS being an example. MOU, TNT, Heywood - the list of examples can get very big indeed. Makes it easier to pass the buck.

[paulb1310]

Well said Erika

[speedfreek]

May be if somebody started sending FOI requests about DWP mail in the way the SORN fella did to the DVLA we could get a definitive ruling that they can only apply 1 set of rules i.e. their rules for them sending to us applied to us sending to them?

[patrickq1]

Sorry to hear of that Rae, It's nothing short of harassment, it's like psychological warfare. I hope that you can tell your M.P. and get him to write a letter of complaint.

 

Regards, Paul.

it is unfair of them,i geuss the days are coming very soon when a percentage of the dwp are out of a job cutbacks as we know will be on the way very very soon,so more usefull information will eventually hit the threads as to the dwp tactics ,worse has yet to come according to this report ?

Does getting tough on the unemployed work? | Society | The Guardian

[patrickq1]

rae have you not got a medical condition that causes brain fog and you lose track of the days as with fybromyalgia and me can cause this ?

just a thought

patrickq1