robbersway/horwich claimform - lloyds disputed overdraft

[eagleforms]

I am being taken to court over disputed overdraft.

Does the claimant have to produce the overdraft agreement?

What else do they have to produce in court?

 

I have I have sent an acknowledgement of service to the court and also disputed the whole of the debt.

Sent s31.14 to the claimant, but had nothing back.

 

Sent letter to court asking for the claim to be struck off because no documents received from claimant.

I have sent a defence, in case it is not struck off.

 

I can see lots of advice and info about loans, credit cards etc.

but not about overdrafts so I do not know what to expect.

Please help because I am in the dark.

[mandyjayne]

Hi eagle..

 

Overdrafts do not have agreements.

 

This will bump your post back up to the top so someone will step in and explain more

 

MJ:)

[eagleforms]

I sent a CPR31.14 request to Horwich Farrelly and received nothing after the 7 days allowed.

I also sent a defence to the court that involved the overdraft and a loan that was supposedly covered by insurance.

 

Lloyds Insurance wrote to me when I was diagnosed with cancer and said that they were making arrangements to repay the loan in accordance with the cancer clause in the contract.

 

7 months later my branch wrote to say that I had not made any loan repayments for 7 months.

I wrote to them and said that their insurance company had told me they were repaying the loan.

 

2 weeks later my branch wrote to say that owing to payments that I had put through the previous day, my account was £5000 over the limit and they wanted the money repaid.

 

I contacted them to find out what this was all about and was told it was the loan repayments for 8 months that they had debited to my account without any notice whatsoever. They then started to bounce all my direct debits.

 

As I was going through some pretty heavy chemo at the time, the last thing I needed was to start to fight with Lloyds.

When the loan was sold to Robbers in Way, I wrote to Lloyds, to ask for the terms and conditions for the insurance.

 

I got a reply from Robbers in Way saying I had them

. I sent 2 more letters to Lloyds and got replies from Robbers in Way.

 

In the end I sent a subject access request to Robbers in Way asking for a copy of the insurance T&C's.

I did not get them.

 

I wrote a number of times responding to their assertion that their client said that they had sent them to me.

I asked for proof of posting and a copy of what they had sent.

Still nothing. 

I then told them that the account was in serious dispute.

 

The next thing I received was a claim from Horwich Farrelly, their solicitors for the overdraft.

This had risen to £17kwith interest and their fees.

The loan was standing at £8500.

 

The court wrote to me after I had submitted my defence to say that Robbers in Way had 28 + 5 days to reply to the defence.

The time was up last week and the court have confirmed that the case has been set aside and the stay can only be lifted if they apply to a judge with very good reasons for this to happen.

 

As far as I am concerned. both the loan and the overdraft are unenforcable.

Am I right?

 

Also, do I write to Robbers in Way and tell them or just sit tight and do nothing?

 

Northampton Bulk centre have now passed the claim to my nearest court

 

when I asked them why they had done this they told me that a reply to my defence had arrived in time but they are 5 days behind in opening their post.

 

I asked the court to which the file had been sent if there was a reply to my defence in it and they said no.

 

Northampton Court office sent me an email with this pathetic excuse, but it is obvious that they have made a mistake.

I have emailed and written to them to ask for an explanation ad have not received a reply.

 

Is there somewhere that I can complain about the action of the court, because in my opinion, they are lying through their teeth.

[debbbbsy]

Although they do not have to respond to a CCA request for overdrafts, they do have to respond to a CPR request, you are legally entitled to demand a copy of your Current account application with the T&C's, and all documents relating to the overdraft. You require these documents inorder to establish that the bank is managing this account as per these T&C's.

Also, the bank CANNOT offset your indebtness on your Loan account, by making you overdrawn on your current account.

 

Have you done a DSAR on your accounts yet ?

 

Unlawful "setoff" by Lloyds TSB?

 

This thread is similar, and should shed light.

 

It is not uncommon for the claimant to be allowed to continue a claim, even though they are late.

 

What the bank has done is wrong:mad:, by unlawfully taking money from your current account, they have made your financial predicament worse. The loan should never have gone into default anyway. (Do you still have the letter from the insurance company ?)

Can I suggest, a very strong 'Official letter of complaint' to the bank. Pointing out that what they have done has caused you immense distress & anxiety at a time when you should have been recouperating. Threaten them with legal action,report them to FOS & Trading standards unless they rectify the situation & compensate you financially. They have to acknowledge your complaint within @7 days (Check there website for complaints procedure), then they have @30/40 days to carry out a thorough investigation & respond. If they require longer, they have to inform you why.

 

Copy the Solicitor.Also, make them fully aware that if they continue with the claim, you will defend in full. There client has broken the law, and as such there claim is unlawful. Make sure that they are fully aware of your ailment. And again, any further distress caused by the solicitors action after you have made them fully aware of the 'True Facts', will result in legal action against them. Advise them to discontinue there claim.

 

If they proceed, send the court copies of both letters for your file.

 

Good luck

Debs

[eagleforms]

Thanks Debs.

I now have a reply from Northampton to say that CPR31.14 requests are only applicable when issued by a district judge and that the claimant is not required to respond to my request.

 

Also, the claimant does not have to file his reply to my defence until he files his allocation questionaire and that is on May 24th when they are required from both of us.

 

This seems to be nonsense because how can I put together a case when I do not know what they are going to say and in any case, as part of the allocation questionaire it says that before any claim is started the court expects you to have complied with the relevant pre-action protocol and to have exchanged information and documents relevant to the claim to assist in settling it.

 

As they have not supplied me with any docments at all, they cannot have complied with this requirement and to say that they do not have until they file their allocation questionaire seems to be a farce.

 

What is a DSAR?

[wycombe]

Subbing with interest.

[debbbbsy]

Quote

4 Data Protection Act 1998 - Subject Access Request

 

Use this letter. Enclose a Postal order for £10. You will recieve ALL the data/documents they hold on you, they should also send statements for your account from the day it was opened.

 

As for the CPR 31.14 request, yes you can do one, I'll find the letter for you. They have 7 days to respond. If they fail to respond(& many DCA's do ignore this request) it will prove that they do not have the documents they refer to and rely upon to enforce the claim.

 

If you are at the AQ stage, make sure you include a "Draft Order Directions". This will be request issued by the judge to the claimant to provide all the documents you need, & will force them to show there cards prior to the court proceedings.

 

Debs

 

Quote

CPR part 18 vs CPR 31.14 Confused? well read here

 

Here you go.

Good luck

Debs

[eagleforms]

Many thanks Debs.

I sent a subject access request last Autumn and they have failed to produce anything other than the bank statement.

I have sent the CPR31.14 and that has failed to produce anything.

 

The case was stayed by Northampton because they failed to answer my defence in time.

My defence was simply that their insurance company had said that they had made arrangements to early settle the loan, and I still had the latter to prove it.

 

For some reason, a clerk in the Northampton bulk centre decided to lift the stay and sent it to my local court.

I wrote to that court and explained the situation and they have said that they will put the matter to a district judge and see what he says.

 

Meanwhile, I propose sending the following letter and wonder if anyone with the patience to read through it could let me have any comments before it is sent:

Horwich Farrelly

London Scottish House

Quays Reach,

Carolina Way

Salford

M50 2ZY

 

24th May 2010

 

Dear Sir,

Re: Robinson Way Ltd v

Enclosed is the letter from Black Horse (Lloyds TSB) Insurance to which I refer in Point 1 of my defence of which you have a copy.

The wording is quite unambiguous and supports my claim that the bank should not have acted in such a heavy handed way in debiting my account with 8 “missed” loan repayments. From there, they proceeded to return all our direct debits as they became due and charged us for that, thereby increasing the debt. Indeed, they left us with no means of supporting ourselves and we could not pay any priority commitments. And, they denied us the use of a bank account. As a direct result of this action we fell into arrears with our mortgage and had a suspended repossession order placed upon the house and many credit cards and other loans could not be paid and the repercussions of this we are still experiencing today.

I believe that, having looked at Section 9 of The Lending Code that deals with Financial difficulties, it is clear from page 23, dealing with the procedure for the recovery of debts, that your client acted totally without regard to the code as laid down:

Debt recovery procedures

163.

The subscriber should take into consideration any other accounts that the customer may have with the subscriber if these have a credit balance. In addition, if a customer has assets which could reasonably be expected to be sold to reduce outstanding debts, the subscriber may request that the customer, and if appropriate, their adviser, considers this option. Thereafter, the subscriber should acknowledge that income should only be used to repay ‘non-priority’ debts once provision has been made for any ‘priority’ debts. The subscriber should leave the customer with sufficient money for reasonable day-to-day expenses, taking into account individual circumstances. Subscribers will not subject customers to harassment or undue pressure when discussing their problems.

164.

A debt is considered ‘priority’ where the customer’s failure to pay could lead directly to the loss of one or more of the following:

·

The customer’s home (e.g., rent, mortgage, secured loans);

·

The customer’s liberty (e.g., council tax, child support maintenance, income tax, court fines);

·

The customer’s utility supplies (e.g., water, gas, electricity); or

·

The customer’s essential goods or services (e.g., a cooker, a fridge, or the means to travel to work).

Your client did not discuss any of this with us, they just debited our current account and left us destitute. They did not take the money from an account that was in credit, they transferred money from an account that was charged considerably more interest than the account to which the money was credited.

 

In addition, the money that was transferred included benefit money from the DSS, so we were denied access to this money, and this is strictly forbidden. Not only that but the benefits continued to be credited to the current account for several weeks whilst we tried to sort out the situation and this we were unable to access this as well.

 

In view of these disgraceful action by your client, I will now take advice about a counterclaim against Lloyds TSB to recover the money that was taken unlawfully, recover the charges made for returned direct debits and to make a significant claim against them for the stress, pain and suffering they created for us, which is still continuing, but especially at a time when a responsible organisation would have been expected to have treated the situation with understanding and delicacy.

 

For a bank that we, the taxpayers have bailed out in their time of need, I would have expected reciprocal treatment from them. But I am forgetting, a banker’s job is to extract as much as it can from its clients with no thought for the hardship caused.

 

I will be pursuing this action with vigour and although your client has the reputation of being totally uncaring as to the damage caused to their clients, especially those who they perceive to be vulnerable, I have the time, the energy and the wit to ensure that Lloyds do not get away with this abuse of my human rights, which clearly they have abused as it is even acknowledged that in the poorest of societies, people have the right to have access to the means of providing food and shelter to their families.

 

I look forward to hearing from you that the claim has been withdrawn and that your client will be prepared to sensibly discuss the question of compensation with me and this matter does not have to be tested in court as I am sure that it will create even more bad feeling for your client than exists at present, especially as I will ensure that all the daily and Sunday paper are made aware of the situation.

I look forward to hearing from you within the next 7 days with a positive reply. If not, I will be putting in a claim to the court for the above.

 

Yours sincerely

 

 

 

c.c Robinson Way Ltd

 

 

Comments would be very welcome

[wycombe]

"I look forward to hearing from you that the claim has been withdrawn and that your client will be prepared to sensibly discuss the question of compensation with me and this matter does not have to be tested in court as I am sure that it will create even more bad feeling for your client than exists at present, especially as I will ensure that all the daily and Sunday paper are made aware of the situation.

I look forward to hearing from you within the next 7 days with a positive reply. If not, I will be putting in a claim to the court for the above."

I would add that you intend to publicise Lloyds actions and complain to all and sundry - OFT, FOS, your MP, Local and National newspapers and anyone else you can think of. But I would send your missive to the claimant on your original summons - if that was Lloyds then it should go to them. Unless the solicitors are the claimant they will not give a hoot about your letter. If you send to Lloyds make sure it goes, at least, Recorded Delivery.

[landy_alert]

Hi eagleforms:)

 

Just offering my support and best wishes on this as well as to say I'm absolutely appalled (but not surprised) at the disgusting way you have been treated by Lloyds, particularly at a time when you were so vulnerable. I can sympathise having also been the victim of their lack of compassion and would echo what wycombe has suggested - Lloyds need showing up for their despicable actions.

 

All the best,

 

Landy x

[eagleforms]

Many thanks, Wycombe and Landy. The claimant is Robinson Way, that well known double dealing act. I will be sending a copy to them, although on the claim they say Assignees of Lloyds TSB, whatever that means.

[wycombe]

Many thanks, Wycombe and Landy. The claimant is Robinson Way, that well known double dealing act. I will be sending a copy to them, although on the claim they say Assignees of Lloyds TSB, whatever that means.

 

Send to both Lloyds and Robinson Way - and make sure you are prepared to carry out your threats as it is likely you will get no response from them that will make any sense. IMHO the only way to deal with them is to attack on all fronts with all barrels blazing away.

[eagleforms]

Have now heard from the court (deputy district judge) in reply to my letter to them about the case being stayed.

I also sent the court a copy of the letter from Lloyds Insurance that says that the claim has been closed because they have made arrangements to early settle my loan.

This seems to me to be quite unambiguous and means that the loan has been settled.

 

I don't think the judge read any of it because he says that it is ordered that the claim be stayed until 8th July to enable the parties to attempt settlement.

 

On or before 8th July one of the following steps must be taken:

either the claimant must notify the court that the whole of the claim has been settled or the claimant or defendant must write to the court requesting an extension of the stay period explaining the steps taken toward settlement and identifying any mediator, expert, or other person helping with the process. The letter should confirm the agreement of all the other parties.

or:

all the parties must file a completed questioaire at the court.

Where a settlement of some of the issues in dispute has been reached, a list of those issues should be attached to the completed questionnaire.

The list must be agreed with the other parties and must inducate that it has been agreed.

 

As far as I am concerned, my letter that I have posted on this thread stands and the only settlement possible is for Lloyds to return the money they took illegally and pay me substantial compensation for the stress and financial ruin that they have caused me.

 

Has anyone any ideas how I might knock some sense into that deputy district judge and get him to at least read what has been put before him?

 

I think that I should get a good lawyer on a no win no fee basis because I think we are getting into legal matters that I don't know about.

 

The stay has now been lifted and I have written to the court to say that I have still not received any documentation from Robbers or Horwich.

 

The court tell me that they have submitted a further Allocatiion questionaire but have not sent a copy to me.

 

In the previous one they sent to the court they ticked the box that said that they had carried out the pre-hearing protocols but as they have not sent a single document to me, this is clearly not true.

I am told that the file has been sent to the judge for a decision.

 

I have written to the court and said that as I had had no documentation, and therefore cannot submit a defence, that the claim be struck out. I

have said that I will have to send them an "unless" request.

Does anyone know how to go about this?

 

I have had a letter from Horwich today that says that in an attempt to reach a swift settlement, their client is prepared to deduct the payments taken for the loan (quoted wrong figure) and accept £xxxx in full and final settlement.

 

They must be joking as they bought the "debt" from Lloyds at about 10% of the redemption figure they are quoting, and bought a pup because there is no documentation to support the claim.

 

Suggestions on my next course of action would be much appreciated.

 

 

Edited May 30, 2010 by eagleforms

[wycombe]

Sorry I can't help but am watching this thread with interest.

 

Try the little red triangle - bottom left - that states report post when you hover the cursor over it. Then a site team member will have a look and flag someone with the necessary expertise to give you some advice here.

[eagleforms]

Thanks Wycombe. Do you have a problem with Lloyds TSB or Robbers?

[wycombe]

Thanks Wycombe. Do you have a problem with Lloyds TSB or Robbers?

 

I had a problem with Lloyds regarding unfair Set Off

To my amazement they actually agreed with my complaint and credited my bank account with all the money they had seized from it and sent me a cheque for £50.

 

To be honest it was a hollow victory! At the moment I have a payment plan in place for the CC and Overdraft I had with them. My main concern is an MBNA problem but I fully expect Lloyds to become nasty again at some future point - hence my interest in your thread.

[eagleforms]

Thanks Wycombe

[eagleforms]

Several years ago I was diagnosed with cancer and as a result the insurance company wrote to me and said that it had made arrangements for a loan I had with a high street bank to be settled. 8 months later my branch wrote to say that I had not paid the monthly instalments on the loan for 8 months. I referred them to the letter from their insurance company. 2 weeks later they debited my overdraft with £5000 and put the overdraft £4000+ over the limit. Effectively they left us with no money to pay for anything.

 

I was going through extensive chemo treatment at the time that made me quite ill and I had no desire to start fighting my bank.

 

This year, a DCA to whom the loan (that was meant to have been settled by the insurance company) and the overdraft had been sold by the bank, decided to take me to court for the overdraft. I had, for the past 7 months, been writing to the DCA requesting the T & C's for the insurance for the loan because they said that they had only paid 60% of the loan because that was the maximum they could pay according to the T & C's. None were sent and I had told them that the account was in serious dispute until they were produced.

 

My defence to the claim was that they insurance company had written to me to say that they had made arrangements to settle the loan ( I sent them a copy of the letter) and therefore the 8 months instalments should not have been debited to my overdraft account.

 

I sent the DCA and their solicitor a CPR31.14 request to send me the documentation they would be relying on for the claim. None were sent. The time for which they had to submit their documentation came and went and I was told by Northampton Bulk Centre through which the claim was being processed that it had been set aside because they had not received a reply to my defence from the DCA.

Magically it then reappeared from another court near me and the claim was allowed to continue. I objected and the judge ordered a stay until 8th July during which time he wanted me and the DCA to negotiate a settlement if we could. I wrote to the DCA's solicitor again requesting the documentation that they were relying on to prove their claim because I was unable to negotiate anything unless I knew what they were going to use. Nothing came. The only thing they produced was the bank statements that showed the £5K deduction and then a whole load of charges over the months after that. They also showed that measly DSS payments were paid into the account but I could not draw them out because the account was over the limit until I could arrange for them to be paid elsewhere. The DCA's solicitor wrote to me several times to say that they had requested the documentation urgently from their client but it had not been received. The DCA's solicitor sent an Allocation Questionnaire to the court with a tick in the "Yes" box in the section that said, have you complied with the pre-hearing protocols, which they hadn't because they had sent no documentation to me at all.

 

The 8th July came and went and I have written to the court to say that I had been asking for documentation from the DCA since last July but had had nothing and requesting that the claim be struck out.

I have not had a reply to this letter but when I spoke to the court they said that the file had gone to the judge for his directions. They also told me that the DCA's solicitor had filed another Allocation Questionnaire but a copy has not been sent to me.

 

Yesterday I got a letter from the DCA's solicitor with an offer to deduct the loan instalments from the overdraft (the figure they quoted was only 2/3rds of the actual amount debited) and that if I then paid £xx,000, it would be in full and final settlement. I have written to them and told them to get stuffed.

 

My question is, after this long pre-amble, for which I apologise, as the bank acted in a way that contravenes their own Banking Lending Code, to which they subscribe, as they left us with no means of paying for anything and also denied me getting my DSS money at a time when I was in financial and health difficulties, can I sue them for damages?

 

Their action started a chain re-action that has included a suspended possession order on our home and countless debts that I could not service. They also denied me from having a bank account and I was only able to get a savings account from a building society/bank.

 

 

I would really appreciate URGENT help with this if any Cagger can provide it.

Edited July 16, 2010 by eagleforms
typo's

[BankFodder]

I'm trying to unravel your story. It seems to me that if the insurers had paid the loan off, then none of this would have happened.

 

Why didn't they? Who are the insurers? Have you contacted them? Was the insurance sold to you by the lender as part of the loan deal?

[eagleforms]

Hi, According to the original letter to me the loan was paid off. The insurers are owned by the bank. Whenever I wrote to them they sent the letter to the DCA who replied. They then produced another letter with the same date as the first one sent to me that said that they had only paid 60% of the loan according to the cancer clause in the T & C's of the insurance which is why I kept asking them for the T & C's which they have never sent to me.

[BankFodder]

Were the T&Cs of the policy ever supplied to you?

 

Do you have copies of the letters you have written?

 

What does the cancer clause say?

 

If they sold you an insurance without letting you know about an important limitation in the policy then it seems to me that the limitation does not apply to you.

 

If you are completely sure of your ground then I think that you have a good case against them. How long ago did the insurers tell you that they had made the payment. I am worried that your claim may be time-barred

[eagleforms]

They might have been when the original loan was taken out in 2003 but I do not have them now. Have been asking Lloyds Insurance and Robinson Way for them since July last year as well as with CPR31.14 in March.I have copies of all the letters and supplied them to the court with my initial defence.

Don't know what the cancer clause says because I can't get them from Robbers.

I have two letters from them dated the same day. One from Lloyds Insurance that says that the only paid 60% off the loan (this was sent by Robbers in Way without T & C's) and the other was the one I received in December 2005 that said that they had made arrangements with my branch to early settle the loan.

The payment was made in 2005 and Lloyds took the 8 "missing" monthly repayments in August, right in the middle of a very painful dose of chemo.

I would really appreciate your advise about damages as well as advice about how I go about issuing an "unless" notice to Robbers and their solicitors.

[BankFodder]

You have immediately hit a problem. You are agreeing that you may well have had the T&Cs from the outset. If the original T&Cs contained the cancer limitation then you will be bound by them.

 

You need to be very certain as to whether you received them or not.

 

Certainly you must get hold of a copy of the T&Cs now because you need to see this so called cancer clause for yourself.

 

On what basis was only 60% paid? Was this part of ther cancer clause?

 

Did you submit an insurance claim? What date?

 

Have youi done an SAR on the bank?

 

What is the status of the court case now? It isn't clear from your first post.

 

Please will you try spacing the paras in your posts.

[eagleforms]

I don't know whether I received them or not but when I sent subject access request to Robbers, they should have sent me a copy and the haven't. Nor have they responded to my CPR31.14 request.

 

The point is that I received a letter from Black Horse Insurance after my claim in December 2005, that quite clearly says "We have made arrangements with your branch to early settle the loan".

 

The other letter appeared sometime later and then provoked my sending a subject access request.

 

The court case was stayed until 8th July and the file is now with the judge for him to decide whether it should proceed or be struck out. So far neither Robbers or their solicitors have sent any documentation to me or the court to support their claim.

 

The worrying thing is that looking at countless threads on this site leads me to believe that despite having no documentation to back their claims, judges are inclined to let the DCA's and banks go ahead with their claims, and WIN!

 

Your help is much appreciated.

Edited July 16, 2010 by eagleforms
typo

[BankFodder]

Your initial letter is helpful but not conclusive. If they wanted to say that the letter was sent in error AND could show that there was a cancer clause in the contract and that you had received the T&Cs at the outset, then you don't have a case.

 

You haven't said whether you have sent the bank an SAR.

You haven't said whether you submited a claim form for the insurance

You haven't told us the date at which you tried to invoke the insurance.