Bailiffs (Phoenix) and Council tax - please help.

[burmafriday]

Hi

 

Pl help with this Bailiff/Council tax matter. I've spent an entire weekend reading through the threads in CAG and got a fairly good idea but feel that i need to ask those more knowledgeable on this site.

 

I am in arrears for 2007 and in Sept 2009, a Bailiff from Phoenix Recoveries visited my house. Unfortunately, my 88 year old aunt who is quite infirm and unwell - let him in as she was by the front door.

 

He threathend me with various things but wanted me to make a payment and i was able to pay him £ 255 by Debit card and he left. I signed nothing, he did not make a note of anything in the house. He then sent me a text message on my mobile asking me to make 3 monthly payments of £ 750 each.

 

Oct 2009 - I wrote to Phoenix and explained I could not make these payments. I stated in my letter that I could sell some stuff on ebay and then pay them £1000 from the proceeds at the end of Nov. 2009 but i did include a cheque for £ 50 int hat letter.

 

Then my brother collapsed with a brain haemmorrhage and was in intensive care, in a coma afer 4 operations in his head. That completely changed everything as the Neuro surgeons wrote him off and i was fighting them as well as trying to get my brother out of his coma. (We are very clse) (In addition to my brother collapsing, i also had other personal problems which i wont mention here)

 

I wrote to Phoenix at the end of Dec. 2009 apprasing them of my situation and that i ahd not been able to work (I am self employed)

 

I wrote to them at the beginning or March asking them for a break down of what i owe, but have not heard from them.

 

1) Having read the threads concerning these cases, it seems to me that my biggest problem is that my aunt let this guy in the house. What is the issue on this please -can some one advise me. My aunt is is 88 years old. She opened the door, and he just stepped in asking for me.

 

2) My aunt is partially deaf and as it was cold i guess she had no choice but to allow him to get in the house. - Can she be classed as Vulnerable? and in which case what do I do about this?

 

3) Should I write to the council (Barnet) and ask for a break down of the arrears?

 

4) and Phoenix? my letter to them simply asked what the amount outstanding was - but I see from my research on this site, that there is a more detailed letter i can write.

 

5) Also do I send a "Subject Access Request" to Phoenix?

 

6) Financially, I am seriously in dire straits at the moment and cannnot really afford much. I want to propose to either the Council or Phoenix to pay an affordable sum of around £ 20 - £ 30 per month - i think the amount outstanding is in the region of £ 2000 so this may not be acceptable to them.

 

Please let me have some ideas on how to proceed.

 

Many thanks/BF

 

Many thanks

[dx100uk]

write to the council and find out what the liability order was originally for. [sum}.

 

write to the bailiff co. and demand a screen shot of their charges etc.

 

others will be along to cross 'i's and dot 't's.

 

dx

Edited March 15, 2010 by dx100uk

[burmafriday]

HI DX

Many thanks for such a fast response. I certainly will.

It really makes me feel much better seeing yr response. Stops the guts churning.

 

thanks/BF

[RaeUK]

Hi burmafriday,

If your Aunt lives with you [or vice versa] then she would clearly be vulnerable and the bailiff would know this. Do let me know a little more detail of what you can't post in case it is usefull, but PM me if it's something you really don't want aired here.

You need to email the bailiff regarding all of this, hardcopy by signed for. Copy to the Head of Revenues at the council by signed for.

If you need a template I am quite happy to do one for you. I'll be around later on tonight.

Best wishes.

Rae.

[burmafriday]

HI Rae - thanks for your reply.

 

Basically, my aunt is from Burma - she came over in 2005 when my mum was real ill. They are the last siblings. My mum passed away in Aug 2006 - so my aunts been living with me ever since. She's a spinster, and not really familiar with the English ways - let alone Bailiffs.

 

My aunt is partially blind, partially deaf and partially disabled (she cannot walk much and needs a wheel chair).

 

Basically she opened the door as she was by the front door when the bailiff knocked. She told me that before she could do anything, he just walked into the house and asked for me by name. As she could not hear, he had to shout, she got frightened and screamed for me.

 

I was up in the loft and not the most nimble - by the time i got downstairs he was already in the house, in the front room. My aunt explained to me in Burmese that he just walked in and there was nothing she could do.

 

So thats the story of his entry. He was not prepared to leave unless i pay him something and as my aunt was really distressed i thought the most expedient thing would be just to pay up as little as possible and deal with it later.

 

I read many threads in CAG and am pretty scared regarding the consequences as the bailiff "gained entry" and i just need some serious advice on how to deal with this.

 

What are the consequences, and what can I do to prevent them?

 

If you could send a template that would be great.

 

My goal is to handle the "consequences of his entry" and pay a small amount per month - as at this precise moment i am seriously broke.

 

Whilst i have sent a letter to the Bailiff asking for a breakdown of charges i 'd like to send another as a follow up using a template i hv seen on this site ("....this is not a Subject Access Request, and therefore i do not have to enclose a £10 fee, but ...") what do you think?

 

Many thanks

BF

[ploddertom]

"From:

My Name

My Address

 

To:

Acme Bailiff Co

Bailiff House

 

Ref: Account No: 123456

 

Dear Sir

 

With reference to the above account. Can you please provide me with a breakdown of the charges including Computer Screenshot. This is not a Subject access request under the Data Protection Act S7 1998 so does not incur a fee of £10. I also require the name of the attending Bailiff and the name of the Court he was Certificated at. You are obliged to provide this information.

 

I require this information within 14 days.

 

Yours faithfully

 

Ripped off customer"

 

Adapt for your own needs, send by email & letter.

 

PT

[burmafriday]

Hi PT

Thanks very much - thats real kind of you. I'll send this tomorrow

 

The issues that really bugs me are:

a. what are the consequences because the bailiff had gained entry

b. what options are available for me

c. what if my dear aunt is "vulnerable" - what do I do as a result?

 

pl clue me what to do.

 

Many thanks/BF

[RaeUK]

I'll let you know about 'c' shortly, which may neutralise 'a' and give you much more 'b'. I work slowly...

Best wishes.

Rae.

[ploddertom]

Hi PT

Thanks very much - thats real kind of you. I'll send this tomorrow

 

The issues that really bugs me are:

a. what are the consequences because the bailiff had gained entry

If he didn't make a levy - nothing - he has nothing to use as a lever so the answer for him is tough luck.

b. what options are available for me

Not quite sure what you mean apart from generally

c. what if my dear aunt is "vulnerable" - what do I do as a result?

Your aunt is clearly "vulnerable" on quite a number of things - age & English not being her first language are but 2. If she is now part of your "family" in this country then the whole household should fall into the same category. I'm sure Rae will be back before too long and she puts Agatha Christie to shame with her missives.

 

pl clue me what to do.

 

Many thanks/BF

 

PT

[RaeUK]

In the first instance, your Aunt:

 

The National Standards for Enforcement Agents details the following:

 

Department for Constitutional Affairs - Enforcement - National Standards for Enforcement Agents

 

Those who might be considered vulnerable include the following:

the elderly;

people with a disability;

the seriously ill;

the recently bereaved;

single parent families;

pregnant women;

unemployed people; and,

those who have obvious difficulty in understanding, speaking or reading English.

 

Whilst not law, these Standards are the agreed standards that the bailiffs and the councils should adhere to. Hence the letter I'll cobble together for the bailiff firm requesting the case is returned to the council. Later, I'll write a formal complaint to the council CEO for the appaling way your Aunt has been treated and the incompetance of the bailiff concerned...

 

Best wishes.

Rae.

Edited March 15, 2010 by RaeUK
Lol @ PT :)

[burmafriday]

HI Rae, Hi PT

Thanks so much for your fast and extremely helpful replies.

This is really great. I did not expect such support. Thanks again.

BF

[ploddertom]

You should also ring the Council in the morning and ask how much the Liability Order was for and how much is still outstanding.

 

I would also suggest seeing if they have a Welfare Rights Adviser who may be able to help if you are getting everything you are entitled to.

 

Another tack is to contact your local Councillor and appraise him of the situation. With your aunt in mind he should jump on those responsible and kick start the Council into action.

 

PT

[pompeyfaith]

subbing to save asking the same quesions

[ploddertom]

HI Rae, Hi PT

Thanks so much for your fast and extremely helpful replies.

This is really great. I did not expect such support. Thanks again.

BF

 

We are all here to help and support. In the meantime I must assume the horizontal position as I start at stupid o'clock tomorrow. Don't forget to keep us posted and above all do not let the Bailiff get the upper hand - believe nothing he says as he will lie & blackmail in order to get you to do his bidding. All his threats are hot air and he should start each one with "once upon a time" as they are all fairy stories - he could be part of the Brothers Grimm.

 

PT

[burmafriday]

Hi PT, Rae

 

Horizzzzzzzontal position??? great idea !!! Second that motion!

Thanks for all yr support.

will start early tmrw and write these letters/emails and update you.

 

All the best/BF

[Thegreenpimpernel]

Would the details of any goods that have been seized / levied upon appear on the results of a SAR ?

 

If not, given that you say he made no notes, nor left any WPA / list with you, you should write to them ASAP contesting that any levy occurred, and that consequently no right of re-entry exists.

 

In answer to your questions:

 

a. Usually, previous peacful entry to home secures the bailiffs right to re-enter on subsequent visits. However, it is my understanding that they only have the right to re-enter to recover goods that have been seized / levied upon at a previous visit.( i am yet to heart a definitive test or confirmation of this) In your case they seem to have neglected to formaly seize any goods. Hence the importance of challenging this point.

 

 

b) the options available to you depend upon establishing their failure to seize goods.

 

c). I know there are rules about vulnerable debtors, but vulnerable aunts? I wouldn't have a clue. From reading the previous posts of Kelcou (above) she(?) seems to have quite an interest in that area. You should take up her(?) offer of help.

 

EDIT - sudden rush of answers posted at the same time! ... a bit redundant now!

[burmafriday]

HI - Thanks Greenpimpernel

Great advice. I'll do that too tmrw - contest that any levy had occurred and deny any right of entering my house again.

 

this may sound real sad - but I could not sleep over the weekend as i was checking through the site and reading various threads on bialiffs and worrying.

 

now i am all "adrenalin-ed up" - thanks again to everyone.

 

All the best/BF

[RaeUK]

Hi burmafriday,

Here is a template letter for the bailiff company. Please read and amend anything you think requires it. You are at liberty to add to or ignore it's no worries. I have kept it very short and to the point for a reason:

 

Dear Sir / Madam,

 

Reference number:

 

I am writing with regard to the above account relating to Council Tax Arrears.

 

It would appear from advice I have received that my household circumstances are classed as vulnerable according to the National Standards for Enforcement Agents. The reason for this is due to my elderly Aunt who resides with me. She is partially blind and deaf as well as disabled. Neither does she have a working knowledge of the English language.

 

I am prepared to provide proof of her vulnerable nature, however, due to her advanced years and ease of distress I request that this is done only as a last resort.

 

You will be aware, from previous correspondence, that my brother is also critically ill.

 

As the current situation is having an aggravated and detrimental affect on my Aunts health, I am requesting that the case is returned to the initiating Local Authority. Doing so would allow me to address the issue rationally, without fear, whilst putting in place an affordable and sustainable payment plan.

 

I also request that, in the interim period, no further visits be made to my home as they impact adversely on my Aunts health.

 

I would be grateful if you would please confirm safe receipt of this letter.

 

A copy of this letter has also been sent to XXX Council for their information.

 

Yours faithfully.

 

 

Please note: this correspondence is being sent by both electronic and conventional mail.

 

...........................................................................

 

 

This is just the first thing. Essentially, if the bailiff company follow the Standards as they should then the case should be returned to the council. If they don't, you certainly have the moral high ground to complain at the highest level.

I have left the details of the bailiffs actions out as they will form the nucleus of a seperate complaint. Didn't want to upset them all at once.

The letter needs to go to the bailiffs by email, hardcopy by signed for. Copy email to council Revenues Division, hardcopy by signed for to Head of Revenues.

I'll add further later if required.

 

 

Best wishes.

Rae.

[RaeUK]

Just one point to note. The National Standards apply to the household not just the debtor. They'd be pretty much a discriminatory waste of time otherwise. Be aware a small number of bailiffs / councils believe they only apply to the debtor. Don't be fooled.

Best wishes.

Rae.

[burmafriday]

Hi Rae

 

many thanks indeed.

I shall have it done today and sent.

 

all the best/BF

[burmafriday]

Hi Rae, Hi PT, Greenpimpernel

 

well i sent a letter to Phoenix requesting breakdown and a letter to Barnet Council requesting details per messages in this thread above.

 

i'll send the other letters (vulnerable, contesting +council) at the weekend. I think its better to spread them a little.

 

will give you update as it happens.

 

many thanks again/BF

[burmafriday]

hi All

letters sent - will give you update immediately as it happens.

thanks again all.

All the best/BF.

[RaeUK]

No worries, burmafriday, it is just the opening salvo but hopefully that will be sufficient.

Coincidently, I've drafted a template formal complaint should you wish it. As usual, correct alter add or ignore. It's no problem. If it looks slightly odd, don't worry. The formatting never seems to fully paste into a post. The pretty copy is in the MS Word document link I have included.

 

[Your Name & Address]

 

[Council & Address]

 

 

FORMAL COMPLAINT

 

Dear Sir / Madam,

 

Ref: [Council Tax Account Reference]

 

I am writing to make a formal complaint regarding your collecting contractor Pheonix Recoveries.

 

On [Day & Date] at [Time] my property was visited by an Enforcement Agent from this company. The door was answered by my 88 year old elderly Aunt who resides with me. She is partially deaf, blind, disabled and has little understanding of the English Language. Under the circumstances, it was not difficult for him to bypass her to gain entry. Causing her great distress at the time as she had no comprehension as to who he was.

 

You will be aware that the National Standards for Enforcement Agents specifically include the elderly, disabled, seriously ill and non-English speakers within the vulnerable category. For your convenience I include the relevant part of that document:

 

Vulnerable situations

· Enforcement agents/agencies and creditors must recognise that they each have a role in ensuring that the vulnerable and socially excluded are protected and that the recovery process includes procedures agreed between the agent/agency and creditor about how such situations should be dealt with. The appropriate use of discretion is essential in every case and no amount of guidance could cover every situation, therefore the agent has a duty to contact the creditor and report the circumstances in situations where there is potential cause for concern. If necessary, the enforcement agent will advise the creditor if further action is appropriate. The exercise of appropriate discretion is needed, not only to protect the debtor, but also the enforcement agent who should avoid taking action which could lead to accusations of inappropriate behaviour.

· Wherever possible, enforcement agents should have arrangements in place for rapidly accessing translation services when these are needed, and provide on request information in large print or in Braille for debtors with impaired sight.

· Those who might be potentially vulnerable include:

 

• 
  
  • the elderly;
    
  • people with a disability;
    
  • the seriously ill;
    
  • the recently bereaved;
    
  • single parent families;
    
  • pregnant women;
    
  • unemployed people; and,
    
  • those who have obvious difficulty in understanding, speaking or reading English.
    

   

Having easily established that the household contains a very vulnerable person, I feel strongly that your contractor was derelict in his duty of care.

 

Furthermore, my brother has suffered a brain hemorrhage resulting in a coma. I have been heavily involved in his care also. Being self-employed this has resulted in accepting a very reduced income. These aspects have been repeatedly willfully ignored by Phoenix Recoveries who insist on payments far beyond the scope of possibility or even plausibility under the circumstances.

 

Due to their actions, any potential for interacting with Phoenix has now clearly become untenable. Therefore I will also copy this complaint to your Head of Revenues and formally request that the debt is taken back by the Council in order that an affordable and sustainable method of payment can be agreed. I trust that, under the circumstances, you will endorse this.

 

I also trust you will take serious note of this complaint and take immediate steps to ensure that your bailiff contractors are fully trained to professional standards, particularly when elderly and infirm people are involved. I do not wish anyone else to be put at risk because of future inappropriate and unprofessional behaviour..

 

 

Yours sincerely

 

....................................................

 

Send to council CEO by signed for.

Copy to Head of Revenues by signed for with brief covering note.

 

Best wishes.

Rae.

vulnerable - CEO council complaint 6.doc

Edited March 17, 2010 by RaeUK
I just felt like it. Is that ok?

[burmafriday]

Hi Rae - thanks for the message last night which for some reason i had difficulty in seeing - till this morning.

 

Hi All - thanks so much for your support. I am overwhelmed.

i hv read throught he thread a few times to get my brain in gear.

 

so far yesterday :

 

a. I sent a letter to Phoenix per Ploddertoms emplate in post #6.

b. I sent a letter to council asking for breakdown and contact details of their head of revenue and Welfare Risk officer.

 

my plan now is to send letters in stages

 

on Friday i plan to send

c) "Vulnerale" Letter - per Raes post # 18

d) Greenpimpernel's suggestion of contesting right of re-entry

 

next monday

 

formal complaint letter to Council

with a proposal for repayment...

 

what do you think?

 

Many thanks again/BF

[burmafriday]

HI Rae, PT et al

 

well i have heard from Phoenix - they've given me the following breakdown of their fees :

 

date Type Amount Remitte Fee

31/7/09 Visit Fee 1 24.50 24.50

09/9/09 Visit Fee 2 18.00 18.00

22/9/09 Walking Possession 12.00 12.00

22/9/09 Levy Fee 83.00 83.00

22/9/09 Payment by D/C 5.00 5.00

30/11/09 Broken Arrangement1 10.00 0.00

 

Payments

 

date Status Remitted/Status Type Source Amt To Client Fees

date

 

22/9/09 Remitted 25/9/09 D/C 255 112.50 142.50

28/10/09 Remitted 13/11/09 chq 50 50 0.00

 

 

theres a summary

 

total £ 2621.20

paid 305.00

balance : 2316.20

Debt 2468.70

Costs 0.00

Total Fees 152.50

 

So this means that they are going to claim extra fees from me totalling a further £ 152.50

 

Regarding their fees breakdown -

 

1) I hv no record of their vists 1 and 2.

2) Walking possession - i met with the Bailiff on 22nd Sept - and this was because the bailiff walked in when my aunt opened the door to see who it was as i stated in the above thread. He was not asked to come in.

I paid the £ 255 by Debit card as they stated, BUT

 

a) there was never any documentation regarding walking possession

b) I did not sign anything

c) he did not make a note of any thing in the house

d) there was no mention of a levy fee

e) there was no mention that that would be a £ 5.00 charge for payment by Debit Card

 

I dealt with the guy personally - only because he came in when my aunt ansered the door.

 

3) Broken Arrangement - i made no arrangement with the Bailiff. The Bailiff text me on my mobile phone a couple of days after he was at my house, telling me to make 3 monthly payments at £ 750 each. i did not reply to him. But when I wrote to him enclosing a cheque for £ 50 (on 27 Oct 2009, i made no mention of his text but stated as follows :

 

"...In the meantime, one of my friends have kindly offered me the use of his e-bay account to raise some cash and the listings will be starting on Thursday. But this will take a good 3 weeks there on to receive payment to pay you.

My plan is to make a substantial payment to you - about £1000 – by the end of November.

In the meantime I am enclosing a cheque for £ 50 – I am sorry but this is all I can afford at this time..."

 

But as you can see from the above, i did not enter into an agreement with them to make any payment. As it happend, i was unable to send this payment nor anything else as my brother had collasped with a brain hemorrhage.

 

But the point is I had no agrement with them to break, nor did i enter into any agreement, nor was ther a walking possession.

 

I was about to

i) ) send Phoenix a "vulnerable status letter " you mentioned earlier and

ii) and contesting the right of re- entry of the Bailiff to my house

iii) then a letter of complaint to the council of phoenix's visit.

 

I have not heard from the Council about the letters i have written to them

so I do not know who the head of Revenue is or, the welfare rights officer. I guess I'll have to phone them tomorrow and find out.

 

In the meantime, I would appreciate any comments and advise you wish to make on the above?

 

look forward to hearing from you.

Many thanks

BF

Edited March 22, 2010 by burmafriday