Welcome Finance Agreement

[BEBOBEBO]

Again, looking at my agreeement, it states on there

"interest will be calculated at the rate of interest on the daily balance outstanding of the Total amount of credit and the acceptance fee. It will be paid as part of your monthly payments"

Now, if they can't add interest add to fees then this a quite a blatant attempt and doing so as it is quoted on my agreement under 'other financial information'

 

Mine says the same but nothing is mentioned about the MIF?

[emanevs]

interest on the broker fee and mif are not on. not in the agreement - fact.

[BEBOBEBO]

Thats Interesting, this has not been noticed or Discussed before, wonder how it stands up?

[andys123]

Yes, how it stands up and is it covered by any regulation. Its OK everyone saying this regulation, that schedule, this supercedes that etc etc etc........ but there obviously opinions on fees and charges applied to them. Its not opinions that count but regulatory, actual facts. May need some help!!!!!

[emanevs]

i agree.

 

everyone can help all they can, but at the end of the day legislation and automatically unenforceable agreements where the court cannot have discretion are a must.

 

Can anyone provide some legislation????

[andys123]

It seems that whatever people are advised to do against WFS, such as CCA requests, SARs, dispute letters, FOS threats etc etc, WFS simply ignore and pass on to debt recovery and continue to add charges etc. Has ANYBODY actually had a successful attempt at getting an agreement to be either 'unexectued' or 'unenforceable' due to any of the criteria mentioned on any of the posts. It seems disheartening that there aren't any successes (apart from admittance about PPI mis-selling but even those cases are drawn out and argumentative) and doesn't really give anybody any inspiration.

Dont' want to appear negative but are we "banging heads against brick-walls" with nothing to retaliate with apart from 'quotes' from various act/regulations/special instruments/case laws etc, all of which are interpreted differently by different people.

[BEBOBEBO]

Its what ive been asking for a while, ive not read/heard of any agreements that have been deemed unenforceable?? might be wrong anyone else heard of one?

[emanevs]

yes, i agree,

 

letters are nice - where are the results????

[BEBOBEBO]

To be honest Im getting to the point where Ill be happy if I get my PPI back and a Decent honest contract, Even though mine has got 2 major problems (Mistated APR and no signature form welcome) I just cant risk the family home for these people. maybe im losing faith but as andy said there arent any good stories to read to get you motivated, I cant really find any instances when these claims have gone to court, maybe its me but the advice seems to stop when you have worked out that your contract has been written by a child.

[emanevs]

case law says it has.

 

Griffiths v welcome, Wilson, Southern Pacific,

 

All tried but failed.

 

What does postggi think about this???

 

has he had his written off etc???

[jdene]

What welcome do is run away from the ones they cannot win they will not face anyone in court who has sufficient knowledge to beat them they have just done the same to me take a look at my thread I put in a defence against them in county court and they have run they dont want any judgements against them that will proove the agreements are crap.

[beyondhope]

Wont stop us from trying though

[andys123]

...but surely going to court to prove an agreement either unexecutable or unenforcable is against the whole principle of having a signed, legible, understandable and correct agreement that we, as layman, can check, understand and question without the dramatics of trying to decipher a high court ruling.

[beyondhope]

I guess thats how companys like welcome get away with things though because layman need a degree in deciphering to understand their agreements let alone if they meet legislation and what case studies support what we are trying to say

[emanevs]

If you have a secured loan have a look at this below:

 

Part VIII – SECURITY S105

 

(4) A security instrument is not properly executed unless

a) a document in the prescribed form, itself containing all of the prescribed terms and conforming to regulations under subsection (2), signed in the prescribed manner by or on behalf of the surety, and

b) the document embodies all the terms of the security, other than implied terms, and

c) the document when presented or sent for the purpose of being signed by or on behalf of the surety, is in such state that its terms are readily legible, and

d) when the document is presented or sent for the purpose of being signed by or on behalf of the surety there is also presented or sent a copy of the document.

5) A security instrument is not properly executed unless

a) where the security is provided after, or at the time when, the regulated agreement is made, a copy of the executed agreement, together with a copy of any other document referred to in it, is given to the surety at the time the security is provided, or

b) where the security is provided before the regulated agreement is made, a copy of the executed agreement, together with a copy of any other document referred to in it, is given to the surety within seven days after the regulated agreement is made.

 

Part VIII – SECURITY S106

Where, under any provision of this Act, this section is applied to any security provided in relation to a regulated agreement, then subject to section 177 (saving for registered charges, -

a) The security, so far as it is so provided, shall be treated as never having effect;

b) Any property lodged with the creditor or owner solely for the purposes of security as so provided shall be returned by him forthwith;

c) The creditor or owner shall take any necessary action to remove or cancel an entry in any register, so far as the entry relates to the security as so provided; and

d) Any amount received by the creditor or owner on realisation of the security shall so far as it is referable to the agreement, be repaid to the surety.

 

 

THIS WAY THEY HAVE TO REMOVE THE CHARGE - FACT.

[emanevs]

'Hurstanger Ltd -v - Wilson' - the amount of credit be cannot be misstated.

[BEBOBEBO]

So my charge could be removed?

[BEBOBEBO]

As they have mis stated the APR...

[andys123]

Have today received a letter from WFS resposnding to my original letter querying whether the arrangement fee and broker fee should have an interest rate applied to them if they are not classed as credit. Also queried why my agreement states a loan of £5000 but may annual statement clearly states amount of credit provided as being £5485. Their response simply states that I knew what I was signing!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

 

http://photobucket.com/ANDYS123_album

 

 

 

[emanevs]

hi andys123

 

have a look at this:

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/welcome-finance/243876-welcome-finance-final-settlement-5.html

 

post 95 may be of help.

[andys123]

Looks like your 'bigging' yourself up!!!

 

I'm gonna send them a letter now about the 'total amount payable' not being on my agreement. This is something that I hadn't realised when I wrote the first complaint.

 

Still need to find out about interest being charged on the broker fee though. They acknowledge that yes, interest is charged on the acceptance fee and they confirm that it is on my agreement and is "no less prominent" than any other details of the agreement. But....can they still charge interest on these fees.?

My statement of price shows they have, and they say "yes..there is a interest charge on the acceptance fee" but, they don't confirm that there is interest on the broker fee, well they don't even mention it and it is not on my agreement but again it is on my statement of price that it has interest charged on it. Any advice?

[emanevs]

me - nah, no bigger upper.... ha,ha.

 

I would get them to conceded that in order to proof the figures, they have to include ALL OF THE FEES IN THE TOTAL AMOUNT OF CREDIT - AS SHOWN ON YOUR STATEMENT.

 

As per Wilson case, they cannot do this - hence unenforceablility.

 

I think you already have that type of statement??

[andys123]

My yearly statement clearly shows 'amount of credit provided' = £5485

My agreement states 'amount of credit' = £5000, which was the amount of loan I required.

 

The agreement in essence states the correct amount provided, so, don't know if I can go down that route.

 

Don't suppose my 'statement' has to oblige with the CCA regs, does it?

[jamesf104]

bebobebo, if your agreement is not properly executed then nor is the security instrument (Legal charge)and they have to return this immediately (sec 106 ineffective securities) it worked for me. Getting them to agree unenforcible may be difficult though. Try it.

[emanevs]

What you need clarifying is what is your total amount of credit.

 

The way I see it is that they will say that it is £5k. However, I would also ask them to:

 

Provide clear and accurate calculations to me, explaining how the figures contained in the agreement dated XXXXXXX return back to zero at the end of the XXXX month period as stated in the agreement.

 

I require a full explanation and calculation from start to finish. Please also explain how the APR is calculated on the loan amount above.

 

Also refer them to this:

 

Section 6 Consumer Credit Regulations 2006

 

Statements to be provided in relation to fixed-sum credit agreements

After section 77 of the 1974 Act insert—

 

“77A Statements to be provided in relation to fixed-sum credit agreements

 

(1) The creditor under a regulated agreement for fixed-sum credit—

(a) shall, within the period of one year beginning with the day after the day on which the agreement is made, give the debtor a statement under this section; and

(b) after the giving of that statement, shall give the debtor further statements under this section at intervals of not more than one year.

 

(2) Regulations may make provision about the form and content of statements under this section.

 

(3) The debtor shall have no liability to pay any sum in connection with the preparation or the giving to him of a statement under this section.

(4) The creditor is not required to give the debtor any statement under this section once the following conditions are satisfied—

(a) that there is no sum payable under the agreement by the debtor; and

(b) that there is no sum which will or may become so payable.

 

(5) Subsection (6) applies if at a time before the conditions mentioned in subsection (4) are satisfied the creditor fails to give the debtor— (a) a statement under this section within the period mentioned in subsection (1)(a); or

(b) such a statement within the period of one year beginning with the day after the day on which such a statement was last given to him.

(6) Where this subsection applies in relation to a failure to give a statement under this section to the debtor—

(a) the creditor shall not be entitled to enforce the agreement during the period of non-compliance;

(b) the debtor shall have no liability to pay any sum of interest to the extent calculated by reference to the period of non-compliance or to any part of it; and

© the debtor shall have no liability to pay any default sum which (apart from this paragraph)—

(i) would have become payable during the period of non-compliance; or

(ii) would have become payable after the end of that period in connection with a breach of the agreement which occurs during that period (whether or not the breach continues after the end of that period).

(7) In this section ‘the period of non-compliance’ means, in relation to a failure to give a statement under this section to the debtor, the period which—

(a) begins immediately after the end of the period mentioned in paragraph (a) or (as the case may be) paragraph (b) of subsection (5); and

(b) ends at the end of the day on which the statement is given to the debtor or on which the conditions mentioned in subsection (4) are satisfied, whichever is earlier.

(8) This section does not apply in relation to a non-commercial agreement or to a small agreement.”