Citi & DPA 1998 don't have to send CCA

[Bosund]

Hi,

 

Would appreciate a bit of advice please.

 

On the 20th July I sent a request for a copy of my CCA but received no response.

 

On the 10th September sent an Account in Dispute letter hoping to get them to respond - still no response to my original letter but received two latters on the 11th requesting payment which I had decided to withhold as they were now in default.

 

On the 12th September decided to send a SAR. On the 22nd October received a data pack consisting of Statements, a copy of my Experian report, a copy of my recent letters, as above, and the following attached letter.

 

http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad92/Bosund/letterfromciti20091020edited.jpg

 

I have tried to find information on s7 (1)© of the DPA 1998 without much luck.

 

Would someone have any ideas?

 

Regards,

 

Bosun.

[Enron]

Did you specifically send a s78(1) Consumer Credit Act 1974 request for a copy of your credit card executed agreement?

 

If you requested it under a Data Protection Act 1998, they have on previous occasion just provided a typed sheet with the details of the application on.... as they are allowed to do.... that said you have to question why they are retyping a sheet, when they could simply copy the executed agreement which could be telling in itself.

[Bosund]

Hi Enron,

 

My original request was under s78(1) as per the templates on this site.

 

They did receive it I know, signed for and registered in their Customer Service Notes.

 

Finally found a copy of s7 (1)© of the Data Protection Act 1998 so think they are just playing sillybu**ers.

 

So next step is I suppose, get another letter off reiterating my CCA request, but am also tempted to get a complaint off to the Financial Services Authority and the Banking Code Standards Committee as apart from defaulting on my legal request, they have also put a default with the Credit Reference Agencies and are ringing every day.

 

I have made them aware that the account is in dispute but going by some of the threads on here they don't seem to be too bothered by regulations unless it benefits them.

 

Regards,

 

Bosun.

[Enron]

I would suggest writing a letter to Citi to remind them that they are in default of your s78(1) CCA request dated xx/xx/xxxx, as confirmed received on (date) by the Royal Mail website, and that as a result of their lack of compliance you will be submitting a complaint to the Office Of Fair Trading.

 

Then write to the Office Of Fair Trading outlining your complaint, basically because Citi have not acknowledged your request or complied with it in any way shape or form.

 

Citi are under scrutiny for their responses to s78(1) CCA, in as much as they previously were sending out recent Terms & Conditions incorrectly. Therefore if you made this request in the last 3-4 months, I believe they are now simply ignoring such requests.

 

But then again you'd expect this from Citi who seem hell bent on misleading customers, ignoring rules, regulations and law.

[Bosund]

Many thanks...

 

Have put this together:-

 

Dear Sir/Madam,

 

 

On the 20th July 2009, I made a formal request for a true signed agreement for the alleged account under Consumer Credit Act 1974 s77/8. This was signed for as delivered on the 21st July 2009 and also confirmed by your Customer Service Notes.

 

You have failed to comply with a lawful request for a true, signed copy of the said agreement within the prescribed time limits therefore this account has become unenforceable at law.

The document that you are obliged to send me is a true copy of the executed agreement that contained all of the prescribed terms, all other required terms and statutory notices and was signed by both your company and myself as defined in section 61(1) of CCA 74 and subsequent Statutory Instruments. If the executed agreement contained any reference to any other document, you are also obliged to send me a copy of that document.

You have already, in your wisdom, decided to register default information with a Credit Reference Agency in disregard of Para.13.6 of the Banking Code,which I can only assume you have subscribed to.

You have also continued to telephone despite my request that you do not do so. This highlights your companies disregard for privacy in my private matters, and also the distress caused to my wife, who is berated by your people for payment of an alleged account to which she is not party. These calls have been recorded, which I am legally entitled to do, and will be presented as evidence should the need arise.

 

You have 7 days from receiving this letter to contact me, in writing, with your intentions to resolve this matter which is a formal complaint. Failure to do so will result in my reporting your actions to Financial Services Authority, the Office Of Fair Trading and the Banking Code Standards Committee emphasizing your companies disregard for the Financial Regulations of this country.

 

Yours faithfully,

 

 

Am also sending it to the following Head Office address:-

 

CitiFinancial

Customer Services Department

Citi Group Centre,

Canada Square,

CanaryWharf,

London,

E14 5LB.

[Enron]

That what it is, Citi are not providing responses to s78(1) CCA, something that i'll raise with them when I write to them next. Instead of informing customers of receipt, or any delay they simply aren't complying.... and continue to enforce agreements at a time they are legally barred from doing.

 

The OFT clarified that a creditor in default of a s78(1) CCA request is not entitled to enforce the agreement AT either with or without a court order.

 

I'm pretty sure that the "OFT Debt Collection Guidance on unfair practices" lists that a customer may request a creditor contact him at a time expressed by yourself.

 

It might be worth your familiarising yourself with this:

 

http://www.oft.gov.uk/shared_oft/business_leaflets/consumer_credit/oft664.pdf

2.2 Examples of unfair practices are as follows:

f. contacting debtors at unreasonable times (e.g. phoning on a sunday, before 830am, or after 8pm)

 

g. ignoring or disregarding debtors' legitimate wishes in respect of when and where to contact them, for example, shift workers who ask not to be telephoned during certain times of the day

 

From the point of view of phone calls, if you are receiving them more than a couple of times a week if you believe they are harassing you for payment whilst there is a dispute - then thats what it is "Harassment". In my instance I was receiving upto 5 day from Citi including silent calls, which is clear harassment.

 

You can ask for the assistance of Trading Standards under the Administration of Justice Act with regard to these calls, in that Citi have ignored your requests not to be contacted by phone. Additionally you have protection under the Protection From Harassment Act, though you would have to submit civil proceedings at county court which would mean hiring a solicitor etc, its something I doubt the police would deal with.

 

Citi as a rule use Indian call centres, their operators are there for purely one purpose to extract cash from you - there is no reasoning with them, they are unaware of English law, what a s78(1) CCA request is, what the OFT is, what laws govern this country..... if you feel you are being harassed I would suggest stating this, and say that you will take them to court if they continue to call against your wishes, however you are perfectly willing to deal with the matter in writing.

 

Hope this info is of help.

[Bosund]

Hi Enron,

 

Again thanks, your input has been very helpful.

 

Will follow your advice and get letters of to the OFT & Trading Standards asap.

 

Unfortunately am of to work now so they will have to wait until the morning.

 

Regards,

 

Bosun.

[Bosund]

Hi,

 

Sorry for the delay in getting an update on here, am up to the proverbial at the moment.

 

Sent of the above to the OFT and local Trading Standards but they both replied in so much as they cannot deal with the problem on an individual basis. Copy of letter from OFT below: -

 

http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad92/Bosund/OFT20091104_1.jpg

http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad92/Bosund/OFT20091104_2.jpg

http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad92/Bosund/OFT20091104_3.jpg

 

So got something similar of to the FOS and have at least received a reply a bit more positive, but more importantly, a letter from Citi saying that after eight weeks they are still unable to provide me a copy of the CCA.

 

Does not stop them chasing though...

 

Regards,

 

Bosun

[Enron]

If Citi are chasing you whilst s78(6) CCA is in place is certainly cause for complaint.

 

Though I am beginning to think more and more that the OFT are a soft touch as they do not seem to be taking this issue seriously, which should provide me with inspiration in advance of drafting my letter to go out to them tomorrow.

[silverfox1961]

Just subbing as I am in the same position.

CCA request to Cabot last year-still no agreement

SAR'd Citi- sent statements and copies of my recent letters. Nothing else

Refuse to send me agreement and T's&C's as they are not required under the DPA1998???

Complained TWICE and still no luck so

Now with FOS and Information Commissioner and OFT

 

Hope you have the patience of the gods, you will need it.

 

fox

[Bosund]

Hi Silverfox,

 

Don't wish to state the obvious but although Citi seem to be refusing to respond with copies of the CCA then maybe Cabot will if you send them a CCA request specifically under s78(1) Consumer Credit Act 1974.

 

Am assuming that Cabot is a DCA. Maybe it will stump them a bit if they cannot get it from Citi either.

 

Am fairly new to all this so may be barking up the wrong tree but no doubt someone else will know better.

 

Patience... there's an old African saying - You can eat an elephant if you do it bit by bit.

 

Regards,

 

Bosun.

[silverfox1961]

Morning Bosund.

 

I did CCA CAbot back in October 2008 and they are still to supply.

 

I know they can't as Citi did a purge of their systems in 2006 (hiding the evidence??)

 

All I want of Citi is a statement that they have not nor can they supply a copy of the agreement but they won't even do that. They went as far as saying they had supplied me a copy in one of their letters but I put them right on that. They also said they had sent me terms and conditions. Errmm- no they hadn't.

 

Here is a link to my Citi thread.

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/citicards/202950-fox-citi-sar.html

 

You will see that the first letter I posted is very similar to the one you posted above.

 

All fun and games

[Enron]

My belief is that there are a lot of issues with earlier executed agreements, i.e. peoples bank connecticut, and associates hence why they are not releasing any.

 

If I was a betting man I would say that the powers that be at Citi HQ in the US of A have said not to release any, and to continue to enforce accounts as normal - regardless of the law that is at issue here. Likewise Citi were under instruction to defend each and every case for penalty charges upto and including court, whilst others were settling before hearings.... and we chalked up a fair number of victories against them at those.

[postggj]

mbna

egg spring to mind on the last comment

 

why did egg start asking people to transfer there cc balance to a personal loan, 2005 i think, dodgy agreement ???

 

its all out there

 

we just have to find it

[Bosund]

Hi,

 

Just a quick update, received a letter from a Mike Green at Citi demanding payment of arrears within 7 days, that they share details with Credit Reference Agencies, (they have), will permanently suspend my card, (I suspended it last year) and that I should contact them on a higher rate number 0870 333 8921 (0870 and 0871 are charged at higher than standard rates).

 

So am sending this off to them with a copy to the FOS.

 

Dear Mr Green,

 

 

Thank you for your letter of the 24th November, the contents of which have been noted.

 

You have failed to provide me with a true copy of my Credit Card Agreement requested under s77/78 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974, and are in breach of the OFT’s Debt collection guidance July 2003 (updated December 2006) paragraphs 2.2 (h). asking or instructing debtors to make contact on premium rate telephone numbers, 2.8 (k). not ceasing collection activity whilst investigating a reasonably queried or disputed debt and 2.10, paragraphs (a). claiming collection costs from a debtor in the absence of express contractual or other legal provision and (b). misleading debtors into believing they are legally liable to pay collection charges when this is not the case, for example, when there

is no contractual provision.

 

 

In light of the above, I have submitted a complaint to the Financial Ombudsman Service so do believe that further communication with you in reference to this matter would be inappropriate.

 

Yours Sincerely,

 

If anyone can think of anything else I can throw at them or, (which is more likely), I'm missquoting the guidance notes, I'd be more than happy to be put on the straight and narrow.

 

Regards,

 

Bosun.

[Bosund]

Hi,

 

Just a quick update.

 

Citi very kindly dropped me a line and admitted that they were having trouble finding my CCA and as they were over the eight week limit that I might like to contact the FOS.

 

Also received one from the FOS saying that they have contacted Citi and that when they receive a reply the complaint will be put before an adjudicator.

 

All words but seems to be moving. I feel quite honoured considering some of the problems people are having on here...

 

Regards,

 

Bosun.

[the_shadow]

Hi,

 

Just a quick update.

 

Citi very kindly dropped me a line and admitted that they were having trouble finding my CCA and as they were over the eight week limit that I might like to contact the FOS.

 

Also received one from the FOS saying that they have contacted Citi and that when they receive a reply the complaint will be put before an adjudicator.

 

All words but seems to be moving. I feel quite honoured considering some of the problems people are having on here...

 

Regards,

 

Bosun.

 

Be mindful that the FOS will almost certainly take the moral standpoint and say you have borrowed the money and therefore you should pay it back and that they cant rule on enforceability only the courts can.

 

S.

[Bosund]

Hi Shadow,

 

Am very mindful of that, and while I do not dispute the debt, I do object to them being able to rack up interest rates to a couple of % short of 30% at will, and ignore the rules and regulations we are jointly bound by.

 

If the FOS do take the moral view, fine, but unless citi come up with a cca then it will be unenforcable.

 

I am aware of what you are saying and appreciate your comments but I have my reasons for taking this route. Somethings I would rather keep closer to my chest at the moment so please bare with me.

 

Regards,

 

Bosun.

[the_shadow]

Hi Shadow,

 

Am very mindful of that, and while I do not dispute the debt, I do object to them being able to rack up interest rates to a couple of % short of 30% at will, and ignore the rules and regulations we are jointly bound by.

 

If the FOS do take the moral view, fine, but unless citi come up with a cca then it will be unenforcable.

 

I am aware of what you are saying and appreciate your comments but I have my reasons for taking this route. Somethings I would rather keep closer to my chest at the moment so please bare with me.

 

Regards,

 

Bosun.

 

Bosun,

 

Please dont think I'm being critical or negating going to the FOS, I just simply wanted to make sure you were aware how things are skewed when its FOS+Bank against a consumer where CCA s78 compliance is an issue.

 

S.

[citizenB]

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collection-industry/236641-oft-lenders-must-not.html

 

An exciting headline

 

Couple of links you might find interesting and useful

[Bosund]

Hi Shadow,

 

No problem, didn't think you were being critical, always appreciate others input on here.

 

Bosun.

[Bosund]

Thanks CitizenB...

[Enron]

It would appear that Citi are up to their normal tricks again, they are now inserting account holders address information into associates Terms & Conditions.

 

They obviously don't understand that the word "executed" in "executed agreement" means signed, and not sending a completely different document to that which the customer signed on opening the account.

[Bosund]

Hi,

 

Quick update....

 

Received a response from the FOS stating:-

 

'CitiFinancial has acted in accordance with standard banking practice by recording a default on Mr Bosun's credit reference records as CitiFinancial has now provided a copy of the credit card agreement to Mr Bosun as he asked it to.'

 

I rang the adjudicator and told them that no CCA had been received by me but apparently the FOS had received a Citi Bank CCA.

 

Pity my original agreement was with Peoples Bank.

 

They have agreed to send me a copy of what they received and also contact Citi and get them to send me a copy 'again'.

 

Not going to hold my breath for to long waiting for Citi to comply.

 

Hope everyone's keeping well...

 

Bosun.

[Enron]

It'll likely be a copy of recent Citi Terms & Conditions with "This is a copy of your agreement to keep etc at the top"

 

s78(1) Consumer Credit Act specifically states that you are requesting a copy of the "executed agreement". The legalese definition of executed being a signed document.

 

Under the regulations they are allowed to exclude the signature, signature box and signature date - but aside from that even if it has been retyped (and why would they do this) the copy document must be an exact copy of the text in your executed agreement - not an entirely different one...... and that has always been the arguement everyone has with Citi on this matter.

 

Citi did send letters to everyone who had complained to the OFT before Christmas relating to their actions over s78(1) CCA, stating that they would deal with the requests as soon as possible.... but to be honest thought it was cosmetic at the time as their credit licence was up for renewal. And so it proved to be, not a peep out of them since.

 

Regulations need to be tougher, but with an emergence of a new world where banks have more control over government it's very unlikely to happen... essentially a lot of regulators are now toothless and unwilling to act.