Van hire gone bad

[PatsyTheCat]

Hi,

 

Looking for some advice please? We moved house recently and hired a van to help with the move. Unfortunately when the hire company came to collect the van I managed to scrape the van into the side of the car (Micra) they had came in.

 

The damage to both van and car was fairly minimal - light scratches on van and scratches and small dent on car.

 

The excess on the insurance policy is £1000 and they are saying that I must pay all of this. They've said that as well as the repair costs I'm also responsible for the loss of earnings for both car and van while they are being fixed which they've said will be 5 days. Apparently the cost for this + repair is more than £1000 which is why I have to pay the full excess.

 

At my request they faxed through an estimate from the garage they want to use which shows the cost for the car at £475 and the cost of van at £450. They also sent another sheet showing the loss of rental at £350.

 

I completley admit fault for this but think that the costs are out of kilter for the damage that was done.

 

Can anyone tell me what my rights are here?

Am I entitled to get a quote for fixing the damage myself?

Can I insist they get 3 quotes?

How do I know they're actually going to fix the damage?

If they don't get it fixed do I still have to pay for the down time?

 

Can anyone help me with a bit of advice?

 

Thanks.

[sailor sam]

Hi there,

 

I bet you wish you had just handed them the keys when they came to collect the van!

 

This is a tricky one. I take it you did not take their CDW option (collision damage waiver) which reduces your liability in these circumstances. The excess should be stated on the rental agreement, can you post a copy up so we can take a look at it but delete any personal details.

[Mossycat]

Usually an excess is for damage and NOT consequential loss, whilst they do have a point that whilst the van is off the road for repairs it is not making any money from hire, however, they cannot charge you the daily rate because not all of that is profit and they would have to show that the vehicle would indeed have been booked out.

 

If it's cosmetic damage only write back and tell them they have a duty to mitigate their losses and as such the van is still roadworthy and they should book the repairs in when the van isn't booked out (ie at a quiet time).

 

I'd also check the terms and conditions of the hire agreement, just because an excess is £1000 does not mean that they can automatically claim it. Yes you can insist on two alternative estimates and copies of the the hire schedule (just to see it is always booked out).

 

No they don't have to get it fixed, but if you damaged it you are still liable for the cost of repairs (less any VAT since if they are not paying for repairs then VAT cannot be included in a cash in lieu settlement), it is fair to argue that whilst the van is in a damaged state the resale value is less then if it were not damaged, hence why you still have to pay.

 

You may arrange your own estimate (but that's harder to do if they refuse to take the van to your garage), and then base your offer of settlement on what your garage says.

 

If they are VAT registered then you do not have to pay the VAT on the repair bill since they will recover the VAT because the invoice will be made out to them and not you.

 

Mossy

Edited October 13, 2009 by Mossycat

[sailor sam]

Mossy, a lot will depend on how old the vehicles are (they may still be subject to bodywork warranties) which may restrict the repair options and as you say; the T & Cs of the hire agreement which is a legal document by the way. The hire company can only claim for the repairs, I don't think they can claim for loss of use. Their own rental insurance should cover that.

 

Can I ask Patsy; was this one of the national companies?

[PatsyTheCat]

Thanks for the input guys. A collision damage waiver is included on the rental receipt but it states "Excess 1000" next to it. It states about the £1000 excess in a couple of other places so I'm pretty sure that is the excess. That said, a lot of info in the T&Cs refers to boxes on the form that don't exist, so I don't know where I stand with that.

 

As far as I can see there are 2 issues. 1) The arguable cost of the repairs and 2) Whether I'm responsible for the loss of use of both van and car.

 

1) Personaly I think it's a bit suspicious that the repair bill adds up to so close to £1000 which just happens to be the excess amount. The quote from the garage they sent through is just a hand written note on a letter head and doesn't show Vat at all. So I'm legally entitled to insist they get another quote, is that correct? What's stopping them taking it to a garage they know is very expensive?

 

2) Am I responsible for loss of use on the car even though I wasn't hiring it and it isn't mentioned in the agreement? It says in the T&Cs that they reserve the right to charge the full rental price until the repairs have been completed. Is this legal?

 

Is eveything in the terms legally binding?

 

Also as they have my card details they probably have / are going to charge the £1000 now regardless of what I do. Do I let them do this? Ptestmably once they've taken the money it's going to be quite hard to get back any I'm entitled to?

 

What steps should I take in what order?

 

Sorry for all the questions and the rambling post, I'm just finding it hard to figure out what I should do.

[PatsyTheCat]

Thanks again all, I'll put up the T&Cs in the morning.

[sailor sam]

Patsy, you didn't answer my questions; Did you take out CDW and pay extra for it on top of the rental, if so how much was it per day? And was it a well known national company?

[Mossycat]

Patsy, you didn't answer my questions; Did you take out CDW and pay extra for it on top of the rental, if so how much was it per day? And was it a well known national company?

 

I don't see the relevence of the CDW, the excess is £1000, it matters not if that is the reduced excess after the CDW or the full excess without a CDW, if the excess is £1000 then that's what it is. Likeiwise the cost of the CDW (whether taken or not) has nothing to do with the liability of the OP.

 

Mossy

[sailor sam]

I don't see the relevence of the CDW, the excess is £1000, it matters not if that is the reduced excess after the CDW or the full excess without a CDW, if the excess is £1000 then that's what it is. Likeiwise the cost of the CDW (whether taken or not) has nothing to do with the liability of the OP.

 

Mossy

 

Mossy, most rental companies will offer the hirer the oppotunity to reduce their excess liability by charging an optional daily premium.

The rental agreement will show the normal excess amount without taking CDW protection and the reduced amount with CDW protection. For example; Enterprise's excess is normally £600 but you can reduce this liability to £100 if you pay an additional premium at the start of the rental which is an extra £8 per day. So i'm asking the question did the OP pay an additional premium and if so what was the lower excess figure?

 

This is why we need to see the agreement.

[Mossycat]

Mossy, most rental companies will offer the hirer the oppotunity to reduce their excess liability by charging an optional daily premium.

The rental agreement will show the normal excess amount without taking CDW protection and the reduced amount with CDW protection. For example; Enterprise's excess is normally £600 but you can reduce this liability to £100 if you pay an additional premium at the start of the rental which is an extra £8 per day. So i'm asking the question did the OP pay an additional premium and if so what was the lower excess figure?

 

This is why we need to see the agreement.

 

Having had more than 20 years experience in motor claims I think I've come across a CDW before and understand the mechanics and principles of a CDW.

 

The OP has stated that the excess was £1000, I gave him credit to be able to read an agreement form.

 

Mossy

[mazbck]

Subbing, my OH worked in Van hire for years and is now a mechanic for a nationwide Van Hire company, so I shall bend his ear when he gets home tonight.

[sailor sam]

Having had more than 20 years experience in motor claims I think I've come across a CDW before and understand the mechanics and principles of a CDW.

 

The OP has stated that the excess was £1000, I gave him credit to be able to read an agreement form.

 

Mossy

 

I've spent a while in the vehicle hire business also so I too know how it works!

[PatsyTheCat]

Agreement and T&Cs:

 

[PatsyTheCat]

Sorry for not replying to some posts in full I was posting using my phone last night as we don't have an internet connection at home yet due to the move - This made posting a bit problematic.

 

Company was Budget Car and Van Rental. Not sure if they are a national company but I think they are. Damage waiver is included on the receipt but at no cost and with "Excess 1000" next to it.

 

Thanks.

[Mossycat]

OK the CDW has reduced the excess to £1000, and it is a damage excess.

 

I don't think the leaflet marked Important Notice To All Our Customers would stand up in Court, and certainly not the section that states in the evdnt of major and or third party damage then the full excess becaomes automatically payable.

 

You are only liable for the cost of repairs to the van you hired up to £1000.

 

Write back to budget and tell them you want two alternative estimates, point out they have a duty to mitigate their losses and the excess applies ONLY to damage to the vehicle you hired. Also state that they have no authority from you to charge anything relating to this accident to your card until you have agreed the amounts.

 

Next, get in touch with your card company and advise them that a charge from Budget may be forthcoming and you refute it and in no way are they to authorise the payment.

 

Post back when you have received responses.

 

Mossy

[PatsyTheCat]

Thanks for the reply Mossycat.

 

You are only liable for the cost of repairs to the van you hired up to £1000.

 

Only the van not the car? Obviously that sounds great to me but am I not liable for the car as well? What's the reasoning there?

 

Write back to budget and tell them you want two alternative estimates

 

Am I able to insist they use a certain garage to get a quote?

 

point out they have a duty to mitigate their losses and the excess applies ONLY to damage to the vehicle you hired.

 

When you say the excess applies only to the vehicle I hired does this mean that I'm liable for the car etc but this is not covered by the excess? Just worried they'll turn around and say "OK then you have to pay the full price for the car repair and the loss of use as it's not covered by the excess".

 

Next, get in touch with your card company and advise them that a charge from Budget may be forthcoming and you refute it and in no way are they to authorise the payment.

 

Just called the card company and they've already taken the money.

[sailor sam]

Ok so it's Budget! This will be a franchised outlet then.

 

I note in paragraph 7 of teir t & C's that their insurance policy is availbale for inspection is requested. Then requset to see it to confirm the excess is indeed £1000. Obviously it dosn't seem they offer that extra premium to reduce the excess I mentioned in my earlier post in any case.

 

I can't see anywhere in their t & c's about damages to a third party's vehicle. Technically the car falls into that catagory so I don't see how they can hold you liable for the damage to the car as well. Their own insurance should sort that out.

 

I would write to them and ask them for a break down in their charges to you saying you want to take legal advice on the matter. Then take all the paperwork to a solicitor which specializes in motor accident claims. They should give you a free initial consultation and advise you accordingly.

[Mossycat]

You are responsible for the damage to the vehicle you hired, ie the van. The excess you had is for damage (to the van) so repairing the car is their responsibility, they will have insurance and if it has an excess they calim it back from the insurers of the van driver (which was you but not part of your excess)

 

You are entitled to ask for two alternative quotes but you can not insist on any particular garage, you can however ask the garage you want to go out and assess/estimate the damage. If their quotes are significantly more tell them they are not acceptable and suggest they use your garage. They have a duty to mitigate their losses, and so cannot argue on taht one.

 

You are not liable for the car damage out of your excess, they are trying this on because they will have to pay the excess themselves on the car and are trying to sneak it onto you.

 

Get onto your credit card company, tell them it's a disputed charge and they were NOT AUTHORISED to take it and demand a charge back. Ring Budget and tell them in no uncertain terms to do a refund otherwise you will instruct a solicitor. They cannot just take money like that, they have not justified any costs, kick up a real fuss and do not take no for an answer.

 

Mossy

[PatsyTheCat]

Thanks again for the advice guys.

 

The hire was paid for on a business credit card does this make a difference? When I phoned the card company (HSBC) they said that charge backs on business cards are not possible. Is this true? They did say they could open a dispute though.

 

Also regarding charge backs, the first payment they took was for the £95 hire + £500 deposit. This was in one transaction. They obviously didn't refund the deposit. If I was to do a charge back how much would I do it for? Can I split the transaction and only charge back for the £500? Or do I do the full £595 which means I wouldn't have paid for the hire?

 

I can't see anywhere in their t & c's about damages to a third party's vehicle. Technically the car falls into that catagory so I don't see how they can hold you liable for the damage to the car as well. Their own insurance should sort that out.

 

You are responsible for the damage to the vehicle you hired, ie the van. The excess you had is for damage (to the van) so repairing the car is their responsibility, they will have insurance and if it has an excess they calim it back from the insurers of the van driver (which was you but not part of your excess)...

 

So they should be claiming for the damage to the car on their insurance. Their insurance company / policy would then claim for this damage from my insurance policy (provided by them). I don't have to pay anything towards this because my policy will pay out for it and my policy excess only applies to the repair of the van. Is that correct?

 

Is that standard practice?

 

In a more normal situation...

 

Car A crashes into Car B and it's the fault of Car A

Car A has an excess of £1000

Damage to Car A = £500

Damage to Car B = £500

 

Does the excess from Car A's insurance not go to pay for both repairs?

 

Also... How about the loss of use? Can they claim this legitimately out of my excess? It states in the terms that I have to pay them for loss of rental income while the van is being repaired and the cost for this will be the normal rental cost?

 

Sorry for all the questions I just need to have what I'm entitled to clear in my mind before I phone / write to them.

 

Thanks.

[Mossycat]

Tell your credit card company to open a dispute and tell them in no uncertain terms that this money was not authroised to be debited, stress that Budget acted unlawfully and you expect that to be resolved without delay.

 

An excess applies only to the vehicle that you are driving/is insured by you.

 

So if you have a £1000 excess and you damage two cars both of which have a £500 excess, you are only liable for the £500 applicable to the car you were driving. If the other car has an excess then they recover that from the insurers of the driver who was responsible but it DOES NOT come out of any excess that he may have on his policy.

 

The excess you had was an AD (Accidental Damage) one, that means accidental damage to the vehicle you were driving, suppose you had hit a car not owned by Budget and that driver had an excess, they would recover that from the insurers of Budget and NOT from the driver via his excess.

 

Budget are trying to pull a fast one and bend the rules to suit their ends, also any loss of profit has to be proven and not taken for granted, and they cannot in any event claim the full rental price as loss of profit since that makes no allowances for overheads.

 

Mossy

[sailor sam]

Thanks again for the advice guys.

 

The hire was paid for on a business credit card does this make a difference? When I phoned the card company (HSBC) they said that charge backs on business cards are not possible. Is this true? They did say they could open a dispute though.

 

Also regarding charge backs, the first payment they took was for the £95 hire + £500 deposit. This was in one transaction. They obviously didn't refund the deposit. If I was to do a charge back how much would I do it for? Can I split the transaction and only charge back for the £500? Or do I do the full £595 which means I wouldn't have paid for the hire?

 

 

 

 

 

So they should be claiming for the damage to the car on their insurance. Their insurance company / policy would then claim for this damage from my insurance policy (provided by them). I don't have to pay anything towards this because my policy will pay out for it and my policy excess only applies to the repair of the van. Is that correct?

 

Is that standard practice?

 

In a more normal situation...

 

Car A crashes into Car B and it's the fault of Car A

Car A has an excess of £1000

Damage to Car A = £500

Damage to Car B = £500

 

Does the excess from Car A's insurance not go to pay for both repairs?

 

Also... How about the loss of use? Can they claim this legitimately out of my excess? It states in the terms that I have to pay them for loss of rental income while the van is being repaired and the cost for this will be the normal rental cost?

 

Sorry for all the questions I just need to have what I'm entitled to clear in my mind before I phone / write to them.

 

Thanks.

 

Where does your insurance come into this? You were driving on their insurance wasn't you? If you were using your own insurance then this is a completely different ball game!! Can you clafiry whose insurance you were driving the van on... yours or theirs?

 

If you were on theirs (which i'm suspecting you were), your liability to them is limited to £1000 worth of damage to the van only. The car is a third party issue and as such their insuance will in effect claim of themselves. If the damage to the van is less than £1000, they got to give you change. What they are obviously trying to do is to get both vehicles repaired out of 1 excess amount. You need proffesional advice on this one.

 

This is why I think you will need to consult a insurance claim solicitor because it looks like this could end up in court.

[Mossycat]

Where does your insurance come into this? You were driving on their insurance wasn't you? If you were using your own insurance then this is a completely different ball game!! Can you clafiry whose insurance you were driving the van on... yours or theirs?

 

 

He was on their insurance (that's obvious from the posts and the scanned documents). But he refers to it as his insurance because it was the insurance that was covering him for driving the van, the only insurance we are talking about here is that supplied by Budget for the hire of the van, and that insurance has a £1000 excess with the CDW in place.

 

I think the big clue was where he said "claim for this damage from my insurance policy (provided by them) ."

 

Mossy

[Big Boss Man]

Sorry to hear about the problems you are experincing, i was concerned to read some of the points noted.

 

The majority of major Hire companies are meant to follow a strict code of conduct, you may find this link usefull:

 

BVRLA - Welcome

 

I understand that you are not disputing the accident, it is the charges they are imposing against you.

 

I would suggest a complaint to the compay concernd, particullar as to why the company never offered to move the vehicle for you, this is good customer practice.

 

In any event i hope you get things sorted.

[sailor sam]

He was on their insurance (that's obvious from the posts and the scanned documents). But he refers to it as his insurance because it was the insurance that was covering him for driving the van, the only insurance we are talking about here is that supplied by Budget for the hire of the van, and that insurance has a £1000 excess with the CDW in place.

 

I think the big clue was where he said "claim for this damage from my insurance policy (provided by them) ."

 

Mossy

 

Bloody hell Mossy, thats why I said 'I'm suspecting he was driving on their insurance'. does this 'nick picking' really help?

[PatsyTheCat]

Yes insurance was provided by them but was covering me, hence "my insurance".

 

I contacted my credit card company again and they're sending out a dispute form. I also contacted Budget and requested a second quote for the van and also made it clear that the excess is only for the damage to the van and asked why they had taken £1000. The guy on the phone seemed to agree with me without actually saying so but couldn't refund the money without contacting the franchise. He has done this but said a response could take up to 20 working days. That's where I've left it with them at the moment.

 

I've also drafted a letter. If you guys could cast your eyes over it and provide bit of feedback it would be appreciated. In particular do you think I should provide some deadlines? Like "You have 14 days to refund the money" and "You have 14 days to provide the info"? Also, to bring an end to the matter, do you think it's worth offering a settlement figure? Say... the cost of the van repair (£450) + £100 loss of use?

 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

18/10/2009

 

 

Problems encountered with rental agreement: XXXXXXXXXX

 

 

To whom it may concern,

 

I am writing to you regarding a minor collision that occurred on 12/10/2009 whilst I was driving your Volkswagen van registration number XXXX XXX under the above agreement. The collision occurred between the aforementioned vehicle and a Nissan Micra which I understand is also operated by your company. I believe that the registration number of the Micra is XXXX XXX. Minor cosmetic damage was sustained to both vehicles.

 

You have made two charges to my credit card totaling £1096. The first charge of £596 includes £96 for the hire fee and £500 as a deposit. You’ve then charged a further £500 as a separate transaction for reasons unknown to me and without my permission or authorisation. You’ve justified none of your costs at this time. I therefore demand that you refund the £500 you took without my permission and also the £500 you took as an initial deposit. When agreement has been reached on the costs incurred by yourselves that I am responsible for and these costs have been proven and justified, then I will reimburse you for these.

 

Please note that any damage repair costs or any other costs incurred to the Nissan Micra involved in this incident are not covered by the excess on the insurance policy provided as part of the above agreement. This excess applies solely to damage to the vehicle named in the agreement.

 

Please also note that you have a responsibility to mitigate your losses. I see a number of ways in which to do this. Firstly the damage to the van needs to be rectified at as lower cost as possible. Secondly, as the damage was only minor and cosmetic in nature the van is still very much road worthy. In order to minimise any loss of income, the repair work should be undertaken during a quiet period where the van is not booked out. In addition to this the duration of the repair should be kept to a minimum. Evidence that the above has been undertaken should be provided with any claim for costs that you make.

 

 

In order to progress this matter and bring it to a swift conclusion I request the following:

 

1) A full break down of all costs you believe you have incurred.

 

2) Copies of two quotations that you have obtained to rectify the damage incurred to the van. These need to be official quotations and show any VAT that is payable.

 

3) Details of a convenient time and place that the van can be accessed so I can arrange for an independent mechanic to assess the damage and provide a quotation to rectify it.

 

4) A copy of the relevant insurance policy that you state is available on request.

 

5) Confirmation of whether you plan to have the van fixed or not.

 

6) The hire schedule for the van showing when it is booked out.

 

 

I would also like to inform you that I have changed address since the above took place. My new address can be found at the start of this letter and should be used for all future correspondence.

 

 

 

Yours faithfully,

 

 

 

 

 

 

PatsyTheCat

 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------