Bailiff - warant for arrest

[new-me2010]

Reading these resurected posts made me think Easter has come early.

 

and even April 1st is 2 weeks away.

[Thegreenpimpernel]

"any citizen can arrest a wanted criminal in the uk"

 

Yeah.... errr.. Rob. Sorry to break it you, but:

 

a) A council tax debtor is not a criminal.

 

b) You are not a police man.

 

c) You've never arrested anyone.

[Thegreenpimpernel]

And to pre-empt the reply......

 

Non payment of CT is not a crime, despite the fact you can get sent to prison! So they are not criminals (the basis of your argument).

I'm sure you would ratyher use the term "wanted felons" like they say on your favorite TV program.

 

You do not get a criminal record, even if you get sent down for council tax arrears.

 

Arrests for non payment of council tax, even when done by the police are NOT arrests of 'criminals', it is done almost exclusively to bail someone for a court appearance.

 

For the record, there are other things you can get sent to prison for without a criminal conviction:

 

1) Held on remand.

2) Held in contempt of court.

3) Having brown skin and looking at the wrong website / owning the wrong book.

Edited March 26, 2011 by Thegreenpimpernel
a bit harsh

[HSBCrusher]

Bailiff Ron.

 

I am sure you have your views.

 

please back up every point you make with a link/evidence.

please dont shout and ball and be abusive.

 

if you can't do the above then please don't post. If you do, it is likely you will get moderated and banned.

[Thegreenpimpernel]

I should add that i personally appreciate contributions from bailiffs, in fact i get a bit dismayed at how they get 'hounded' off the forum, so appologies if i'm a bit confrontational.

 

It's just that:

 

a) I believe you are wrong.

 

b) You phrased it as we were 'talking rubbish'.

 

I welcome any inside view or knowledge on how it works in the field, but Rob, do yourself a favor and don't equate being a bailiff, with being an expert in bailiff law. On the contrary, i think most of you are tutored in what you can get away with more than what you should be doing.

[Thegreenpimpernel]

...and for the record.

 

Using the general concept of 'citizens arrest' as an example is a little flawed in this case, not only for the reasons highlighted above, but because you would have no right of citizens arrest, less so the right to physically touch an actual criminal (as opposed to a debtor) who was at his home address.

 

There needs to be a pressing reason for a citizens arrest, like a crime in progress, or a wanted villain on the run. Someone, 'wanted' or not, 'criminal' or not, who is at home answering the door is WELL outside the scope for citizens arrest.

Edited March 26, 2011 by Thegreenpimpernel

[caledfwlch]

If a Bailiff attempted a citizens arrest on me, he would have 10 bells kicked out of him, and since it would be his word against mine, well its not my fault he did not identify himself, and I thought I was being attacked by a mugger

[zolajack]

I think Bailiffron has been watching too many "Dog the bounty hunter " shows.

[ScarletPimpernel]

I think Bailiffron has been watching too many "Dog the bounty hunter " shows.

 

 

...and not enough 'Sesame Street'.

[caledfwlch]

So, does a court bailiff actually have a power of arrest, or are they just claiming powers under citizens arrest, and the fact it does not apply is ignored by the courts/legal system since they want their pound of flesh?

[brassnecked]

So, does a court bailiff actually have a power of arrest, or are they just claiming powers under citizens arrest, and the fact it does not apply is ignored by the courts/legal system since they want their pound of flesh?

 

I think there is a grey area, but bailiffron thinks that Dog The Bounty Hunter powers apply here. I would have thought that the actual arrest would have to be by police, as PACE etc would have to be adhered to when taking someone into custody, however I may well be wrong

[caledfwlch]

I think there is a grey area, but bailiffron thinks that Dog The Bounty Hunter powers apply here. I would have thought that the actual arrest would have to be by police, as PACE etc would have to be adhered to when taking someone into custody, however I may well be wrong

 

I vaguely remember a programme, possibly on BBC following a court bailiff - and he was visiting homes looking for people to arrest, no police support, and he took at least one guy into "custody" and drove him to court - again with no Police present. I don't think he actually handcuffed or restrained, just said your under arrest, come with me to court - so maybe they are just talking rubbish and hoping the debtor believes them.

[ploddertom]

In the majority of cases these are non-bail warrants mostly for unpaid fines, the defendant then agrees to attend Court at a certain date/time to explain the reasons for non-payment - job done Bailiff returns warrant and gets paid.

 

PT

[caledfwlch]

In the majority of cases these are non-bail warrants mostly for unpaid fines, the defendant then agrees to attend Court at a certain date/time to explain the reasons for non-payment - job done Bailiff returns warrant and gets paid.

 

PT

 

So they cannot actually physically restrain you with cuffs and take you to court against your will?

[brassnecked]

So they cannot actually physically restrain you with cuffs and take you to court against your will?

 

I don't think they can, any more than a PCSO could remember. a PCSO, and a bailiff are not "Sworn Constables" (Special Constables are though), therefore don't have a warrant card that confers the extra powers of arrest over and above the citizen, so it may be woeful for the likes of bailiffron if they cuff the debtor and drag him to a police office. most likely they would be treated the same as the employer who dragged the employee that stole off him to the police station; i.e banged up themselves imho

[caledfwlch]

I don't think they can, any more than a PCSO could remember. a PCSO, and a bailiff are not "Sworn Constables" (Special Constables are though), therefore don't have a warrant card that confers the extra powers of arrest over and above the citizen, so it may be woeful for the likes of bailiffron if they cuff the debtor and drag him to a police office. most likely they would be treated the same as the employer who dragged the employee that stole off him to the police station; i.e banged up themselves imho

 

If I remember, a PCSO can restrain a suspect for 30 minutes, if the real police have not turned up by then, they must let you go.

 

However, I don't know whether that is a special power, and can do this to everyone, or if its simply under citizens arrest protocols, in which case, for example, a PCSO would not be able to detain someone for a low level public order offence, since that is generally a fine, not 5 years in prison.

[wonkeydonkey]

...and not enough 'Sesame Street'.

 

It looks like Bailiffron has left us to catch up on the missing episodes!!

[Thegreenpimpernel]

Like i say, all of the above are irrelevant if the "wanted felon" (sorry, can't find how to apply a slightly backward American accent to text) is sat at home watching telly.

 

If, as a member of the public, or PCSO, you were aware of a wanted bank robber(for sake of argument) resident at an address. You would NOT have the right to knock on his door, get him in a head lock and drag him to the police station. You have even less right to enter his residence to effect the arrest. You would be expected to call the police.

 

You can sit and watch until they arrive; and furthermore, if you saw the guy run out of his front door at speed after he hears the sound of police sirens, then you would then be allowed to jump in and restrain him.

 

I suppose there is a theoretical circumstance where a bailiff in possession of an arrest warrant knocks on a door, and the subject of the arrest warrant pushes past him and sprints down the street. Then, he could be entitled to give chase and restrain. Though if i were a bailiff i wouldn't bother, because if the 'runner' turned out to be someone else, smashed his face on the pavement as he went down....

 

Big trouble for Mr Bailiff.

[seanamarts]

he didnt last long did he, he is probably a bailiff novice taught in a 5 min classroom.

[brassnecked]

publiclawproject.org.uk/downloads/PrivatisingPowerofarrest.pdf what do you guys make of this? Advice please?

 

 

when you put the www. in there it comes up with a 404

[brassnecked]

publiclawproject.org.uk /downloads/PrivatisingPowerofarrest.pdf Does it work now? Also have you heard of the website workingthedoors.co.uk/wtd/pages/arrest-plastic-restraint.php .omg this is shocking.can anybody tell me if these websites are true?and give me advice please?

 

Yes I downloaded it OK, There are many holes in there and there is no consensus or absolute guidance in there that says a bailiff can force entry to execute a warrant

 

" warrants of arrest issued to enforce financial liabilities are not treated as criminal

proceedings and consequently there is no power of forced entry. In R v Peacock

(1989) 62 the court considered whether a warrant of arrest issued for fine default

under s83 MCA is issued "in connection with a criminal offence" so that (under

the old s125(4) MCA) there was no need for the police officer to have the warrant

in his possession when executing it. The Divisional Court felt that the offence of

which Peacock was convicted did not have a continued life after conviction and

sentencing so that fine enforcement proceedings were not a criminal procedure

63

. It has been held that an arrest warrant issued against a fine defaulter is not

associated with any offence and is comparable to arrest warrants for arrears of

maintenance or under an affiliation order 64. It has also been held that a warrant

of arrest issued for non-payment of a penalty is akin to civil execution 65. Such

proceedings do not fall within the 'Semayne exception' and entry may thus not be

forced."

 

quoted from the pdf

[brassnecked]

@ post #100 amyj, I think any bailiff/Warrant officer , would most likely need to bring a police officer along for his protection and to protect the peace if things went pear shaped, dotting i's and crossing t's etc.

[Thegreenpimpernel]

"*and escort him/her to a prison to serve a excisting prison term"

 

That term says it all Amyj. It's like i said in my previous post. The bailiff has the same powers of arrest as me or you. An existing prison term is where you have failed to attend court for non payment of the payment order, and been sentenced in your absence to a prison term. You have, in that situation, in effect, absconded from prison. Anyone would be allowed to restrain such a person with reasonable force awaiting the arrival of the police.

 

The rest is a bailiff's pie in the sky wishfull thinking.

 

For avoidance of doubt, it is technically possible for a court to order forced entry for unpaid business rates. But just like it is possible to get all sorts of draconian punishments for defacing an image of the Queen on a coin, it NEVER happens.

 

I have never heard of such an instance, and no such instance has ever been reported on this (very busy) forum, and no reference exists on the web.

[ploddertom]

Sorry & I'm not trying to be funny but I am at a certain age where I find it difficult to read large passages of text without being split into paragraphs etc.

 

PT

[bigshoes...bigsocks]

Rob m why are you lieing?everything you just said is rubbish.firstly any citizen can arrest a wanted criminal in the uk without having a arrest warrant on them.secondly no the police do not need to be present for a bailiff to make a arrest.and no the bailiff transports the prisoner in his own car and takes the prisoner to court or prison.secondly if the police are called to assist with a arrest warrant they are the bailiffs back up.if you resist the police help the bailiff.if you don't open the door the bailiff tells the police to force entry to your house for him.you will also find a bailiff can refuse the police mans help as the bailiff is liable for damage the police cause.so to make this crystal clear to you.a bailiff on himself can and will arrest you and transport you to court.he can also search your house and you if he wants to.a bailiff enforcing a arrest warrant has the same powers as police arresting that person.they get there authority from the arrest warrant.witch is the court.your chatting complete air bubbles.if ur so called police man dad stopped a arrest from happening he would be arrested himself.and if the bailiff want of could of detained your dad for breach of the peice.the only powers the police have over bailiffs regarding arrest warrants is they can demand ur name and detain you for not giving it.other wise they go under common law like any citizen in the uk.we have full private police forces in the uk.btp port police park rangers.water bailiffs are actually constables.I suggest you get your facts right before coming out with rubbish like that.o n b the way council officials can arrest you to.rofl your post made me giggle

 

Brilliant. What a tool.