probationary employment

[jansus]

My daughter has been in probationary employment for 2 and 1/2 months .

 

 

during that time they have never discussed any problems with her work or had any meetings .

 

today out of the blue they called her in to a 5 minute meeting without warning and basically said your perforance has not been satisfactory . She ws so shocked she did not know what to say and was very upset so basically because she did not know what she had done wrong she did not really reply. they then gave her a pre-typed letter with her payslip and one weeks pay in lieu. The letter says she has 5 days to appeal.

 

As far as I know they have not carried out the correct proceedure as they should have given her the letter before the meeting and also let her have a colleague with her.But on the other hand there is nothing she can do about it?

 

This is very damaging to a young person ( who by the way was voted employee of the month at her last job) and I need to know what can we put on CVs or know what they will do when they write a reference?She really has no idea of what she has done wrong.

[Guest Old_andrew2018]

You could PM forum contributers with HR expertise, I am sure they might be able to give advice.

[iw61]

My daughter has been in probationary employment for 2 and 1/2 months .

 

 

during that time they have never discussed any problems with her work or had any meetings .

 

today out of the blue they called her in to a 5 minute meeting without warning and basically said your perforance has not been satisfactory . She ws so shocked she did not know what to say and was very upset so basically because she did not know what she had done wrong she did not really reply. they then gave her a pre-typed letter with her payslip and one weeks pay in lieu. The letter says she has 5 days to appeal.

 

As far as I know they have not carried out the correct proceedure as they should have given her the letter before the meeting and also let her have a colleague with her.But on the other hand there is nothing she can do about it?

 

This is very damaging to a young person ( who by the way was voted employee of the month at her last job) and I need to know what can we put on CVs or know what they will do when they write a reference?She really has no idea of what she has done wrong.

 

Unfortunately due to the length of time your daughter has been employed she doesnt qualify for employment rights until she has had a years service. My understanding is that the company doesnt have to follow a fair procedure. The company legally have to give her notice unless in circumstance of gross misconduct.

 

BTW my son worked for a very large retail company and was also dismissed due to not being needed after 2 months work. I know how you and your daughter must feel.

 

He got a standard reference off the company.

[jansus]

According to my research there is no such thing as a "probationary" period of work in UK law,and she does have a signed contract so she has the same rights as anyone else employed for LESS than 1 year.

 

That is she can not claim for unfair dismissal.

 

However they should have given her some warning of the meeting before hand , in writing - and she should then have been given the chance to attend the meeting with a colleague and if possible been given the chance to put any problems right in the next two weeks or they could have extended the so called "probationary " period and given her a chance to improve.

 

The job was not as advertised and it is not so much losing the job as the way it was done and the reason given in the letter.

 

Only two weeks before they were happy enough for her to sign a contract and talk about her future.

 

Her line manager seemed happy with her works and so did the office manager. the only area where there were problems were when she was asked to do areas for which she had NO training.

 

I know we should just move on and will probably put this down as a short term contract on her CV ( hoping that the reference is Ok) - she will have part time work as her previous employer have kept her on the books and will take her back.

 

But as an employer myself I am very cross that a young person can be treated in such an off hand way - without any feeling as to whether this would dent her confidence. The job was hard at times and she was on her feet all day in a hot environmrnt and one day was sick all day - but she still carried on working.

 

There rant over. I know in the scheme of things this will probaby toughen her up and I can not fight her battles for her but when there are so many young people out of work at the moment with little hope for the future I do think it is time we just treated them with a bit of respect.Otherwise how are they going to learn respect for others.

[jansus]

oh by the way I think the true reason they let her go was as the director is being sued big time at the moment - so why not say than rather than criticize her performance in writing .

 

IW61 I hope your son realized it was not his fault and was able to move on to find an alternative job.

[iw61]

Actually he is still looking for work but its really tough out there at the moment as we all know.

 

I do agree though that the employer should have been much more reasonable and honest to your daughter. It is unfortunate that we cant get any form of redress through the tribunals in issues such as this.

 

Price we pay for having a so-called 'flexible' economy I suppose.

Edited August 31, 2009 by iw61

[diamondgirl]

Where I work at the moment it is written into contracts which are handed out anytime after you have been with the company for 4 months that you can be asked to leave immediately. They have actually sacked several staff this way by calling them into a meeting and asking them to leave at the end of their shifts, one of the rescent ones to go was told at 4.50 that they did not want her back and to leave at the end of her shift which was 5pm that way she did not have time to say goodbye to anyone.

 

I am on a 3 months "probationary" period which ends on the 2nd Sept. This was quite clearly stated when offered the position. During this time they can give me immediate notice and ask me to clear my desk and leave that day and I can also give them notice and leave the same day it works both ways. They do not have to give any reason but they also cannot by law give anyone a bad reference, they can of course refuse to give you one.

 

It is very difficult in the jobs market at the moment I know I was made redundant, this job I have is not ideal far from it, but it pays the bills and I'm still looking, I've applied for lots of jobs which I am more tham qualified to do but they look at my age and say no thanks, I know its against the law but they do it.

 

The jobs market is at the moment definately in favour of the younger end of the market but it just takes a lot of effort and a lot of C.V.s to find something.

 

I hope your daughter and son have success very soon.

 

DG:)

[jansus]

thanks for your comments .

 

As an employer I would say on the whole there is too much red -tape and on the whole after the first 12 months the law probably leans towards the employee rather than the employer and there is adequate protection.

 

I would also comment that I would have thought a contract would not be legally binding if the terms were outside current employment law. But there seems to be a law but no one willing to actually challenge if things go wrong within the first year of employment. In other words the only redress is on age/sex/racial discrimination which is very hard to prove.

 

I had a similar case with my sons girlfriend who was dismissed instantly without the proper meetings etc and she contacted ACAS . The seemed to imply the same thing - yes you should get warning - yes you should have a colleague present - and yes you should have a chance to improve etc. but sorry even if the employer has not done these things there is not a lot we can do.

[jansus]

Dismissal during or at the end of a probationary period is not different to any other dismissal and employers should follow the three-step standard dismissal procedure. The three steps are;

· The employer sets out in writing the reasons why dismissal is being considered. The employee is given a copy, which will ask them to attend a meeting to discuss the matter. They will have the right to be accompanied by their trade union representative or a colleague

· The meeting will take place and a decision will be made

· The employee is then entitled to appeal against the decision and if so, an appeal hearing takes place

[jansus]

Probationary Period of Employment

Published: 03 September 2008

Contrary to popular belief, the often-used term “probationary period” has no legal meaning. An employee on probation has exactly the same rights and entitlements as a worker who is not on probation, subject to any length of service or other qualifying requirements. An employee’s probationary status within an organisation holds no legal weight: of far greater importance is the amount of time the worker has been with the company. As with all employees, probationers are legally protected from discrimination on unlawful grounds (e.g. race, sex and age), and dismissal for most automatically unfair reasons such as pregnancy, trade union membership and whistle-blowing. Although a probationary period has no basis in law, it can play an important practical role within an organisation. During their probationary period, employees are made aware that their conduct and abilities are being closely scrutinised, and the end of the period this serves as a prompt for a thorough review of the employee’s overall performance. The employee can also use the probationary period to assess whether or not the job is right for them.

Ashby-Cohen, Solicitors

[jansus]

I also think that if people make mistakes they should put their hands up and learn from them. And I hope I have instilled that in my children.

 

They can not learn if they are not told.

 

And if they have done a good job but it is because of he economic climate they should be told that as well.

 

We all need a bit of encouragement sometimes.

[iw61]

thanks for your comments .

 

As an employer I would say on the whole there is too much red -tape and on the whole after the first 12 months the law probably leans towards the employee rather than the employer and there is adequate protection.

 

 

The balance of proof to dismiss someone after 12 months is extremely low if not, non existant. An employer only needs reasonable belief and to follow the statutory 3 step procedure (pre april 6th; post april 6th the awards increase/decrease depending who is at fault)

I think it will be a long time until employees have strong employment rights. Remember the UK is the easiest place in Europe to sack someone.

[jansus]

do you think that is why we see quite a lot of cases of discrimination then rather than unfair dismissal?

 

Its an interesting area and not one that I have studied in detail - I have just always been sure that i was aware of correct proceedure and that is what is written in our contracts. I have never had to sack anyone.

 

Also I explained to my daughter about trade unions - she had no idea that they existed - so I guess this has been a learning curve for her as well.

[jansus]

right - i get it now - those three steps existed before April 2009 - now the rules have changed - just reading on direct gov site

[iw61]

do you think that is why we see quite a lot of cases of discrimination then rather than unfair dismissal?

 

.

 

I have known of disability discrimination of employees with less than 1 years employment. I know also of an example of someone being dismissed for whistle-blowing-automatically unfair dismissal by someone with 5 months employment.

[jansus]

No - this is still in the

"guidelines " - dont you just love that word.

 

 

Inform the employee of the problem

9. If it is decided that there is a disciplinary case to answer, the employee

should be notified of this in writing. This notification should contain

sufficient information about the alleged misconduct or poor performance

and its possible consequences to enable the employee to prepare

to answer the case at a disciplinary meeting. It would normally be

appropriate to provide copies of any written evidence, which may include

any witness statements, with the notification.

10. The notification should also give details of the time and venue for

the disciplinary meeting and advise the employee of their right to be

accompanied at the meeting

[patdavies]

They do not have to give any reason but they also cannot by law give anyone a bad reference, they can of course refuse to give you one.

 

Urban myth, I'm afraid.

 

It is perfectly legal to give a bad or negative reference as long as it is factual.

[jansus]

Just an update.

 

I persevered sent them an email and asked again what my daughter had done wrong and why she was not given notice of the meeting or any chance to correct anything she had done wrong.

 

I have a reply in writing stating her dismissal was to do with company restructuring and nothing to do with her skills or performance and they will write her an open reference.

 

I was not going to give up on this one as she is applying for some important jobs and she would not lie at an interview or on a CV.

[farmlama]

LOOK UP THIS THREAD, IVE POSTED A LOAD OF INFO ABOUT WRONGFUL DISMISSAL, WHICH CAN BE CLAIMED UNDER 12 MONTHS SERVICE WHICH I FEEL YOUR DAUGHTER WOULD BE A VICTIM OF

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/employment-problems/221001-employment-help-sacked-text-3.html

[jansus]

Thanks that is very useful

 

she was given a contract two weeks before she was let go so I will look carefully at all the wording . I will have a more detailed read tonight.