Fluffystuffs OH & Halifax Credit Card

[Fluffystuff]

Hi Everyone,

 

Have received a "reconstituted version of the executed agreement" (basically 8 pages of computer generated past and present T & C's) in response to CCA request.

Covering letter below.

 

Now, a little twist ,in that we have what we believe is OH's copy of the agreement. I say believe, as the document obviously acted as a card carrier - glue still on there. See below - front and back of document.

 

You will note that there is no provision for either creditor or debtor to sign, so assume this renders it unenforceable? Would be grateful if someone could just double check the docs for any other omissions etc.This agreement was taken out on-line, late 2003 - should OH have been sent something to sign?

 

Will await your opinions on enforceability of agreement before we decide next move.

 

Many thanks.

Edited August 20, 2009 by Fluffystuff
Images too small.

[maroondevo52]

Hi,Fluffystuff.

 

Afraid I'm not to good when it comes to agreements, but all your images are too small to read, unless my eyesite's getting worse.

 

Regards.

 

Scott.

[Fluffystuff]

Sorry Scott - I have a very basic computer brain!

 

Can anyone advise me how to increase the attachment size?

 

FS

[maroondevo52]

Sorry Scott - I have a very basic computer brain!

 

 

Join the club

 

Have you tried ...........

 

TinyPic - Free Image Hosting, Photo Sharing & Video Hosting

 

Or this guide might help..........

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/welcome-consumer-forums/107001-how-do-i-dummies.html

 

Regards.

 

Scott.

[Fluffystuff]

Sorry, stlll trying to up-load docs.

Edited August 20, 2009 by Fluffystuff

[maroondevo52]

Yes, thats sound

 

I'll see if I can get someone to have a look.

 

Regards.

 

Scott.

[Fluffystuff]

Image - TinyPic - Free Image Hosting, Photo Sharing & Video Hosting

 

Image - TinyPic - Free Image Hosting, Photo Sharing & Video Hosting

 

Image - TinyPic - Free Image Hosting, Photo Sharing & Video Hosting

 

Apologies again for the delay - hope the above are readable.

[Fluffystuff]

Hi,

 

Would appreciate it very much if somebody has the time to look at the above docs for me and post their comments please.

 

Thanks.

[middenmess]

Terms and conditions or whatever they call them seem to jump from 1.6 to 11.2 were there no more?

 

I received a very similar letter and loads of T & C's t'other day from Halifax.

[Fluffystuff]

Hi MM,

 

 

T&C's all there in numerical order - just omitted when scanned, sorry about that!

 

Do you have any comments concerning the lack of any signatures?

 

Have been reading lots of posts in this section and it seems that Halifax are prooving particularly difficult to deal with so really would like to know if our copy of the agreement is enforceable before we pursue Halifax to see what they've got.

 

Many thanks.

[middenmess]

According to most the signatures can be omitted on a 'true' copy but some might beg to differ.

 

Did you receive a similar page to this that I'm asking for opinions on?

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/halifax-bank-bank-scotland/216361-help-advice-example-credit.html

[babydoll0141917]

subbing

[supasnooper]

If you say your OH applied online then he may have ticked a box which will replace a signature and be valid.

 

The Halifax can omit a signature as pointed out earlier.

 

the only way to see if the Halifax do have a signed copy of the CCA is to use CPR31.14

 

See the links below -

 

pt2537's CPR31.16 thread -

 

Use CPR 31.16 for disclosure of your CCA

CPR 31.16 Court win

 

** ORDER TO PRODUCE CCA CPR31.16 WIN ***

[johnerog]

Hi fluffystuff'

How long have you had this card?

[Fluffystuff]

MM -

 

Halifax have not forwarded a copy, the 2nd & 3rd images in post #7 are OH's copy agreement sent with the card when account was opened.

All we have received from Halifax in response to the CCA request are several pages of computer generated T & C's.

Sorry for any confusion.

 

Johnerog -

 

The account was opened late 2003 which is why I thought a signature would still have been required? If this is the case, there is nowhere on the document to sign. Which leads us to Supa's response concerning CPR.

 

Supa -

You have confirmed our thoughts in so much as we cannot be absolutely sure without entering along the CPR route, that the copy we have in our possession is all that the Halifax have. But, IF it is, the absence of signatures will deem it unenforceable?

 

Thanks everyone for your responses.

[johndeevoy]

Fluffy,

 

I havent seen the scans as I can't access them from work but the short answer is YES, the agreement will be unenforceable under s127 CCA1974 if they cannot produce an agreement that bears your signature.

 

As Supa has posted above, you could go down the CPR route or simply ask them outright in a letter if they have an original bearing signatures of both parties and the dates of signing.

 

The next step for you is to send off a DISPUTE letter to them (I am sure you'll find some good templates on here) detailing that you do not believe that the correspondence received pursuant to your CCA request satisfies their obligations under CCA s77/78 and that you do not believe that a properly executed agreement exists. Offer them to forward you further information so as to prove the existence of a properly executed agreement and until such time you shall not make any further payments to the disputed account.

[johnerog]

Fluffy

Para's 3,4,5 of S127 were not removed until March 2006. So yes they need the sigs.

[johnerog]

Fluffy.

Just noticed that one of these scans is the delivery letter for a CC. The other is just a sheet of t&c's and cancellation notice. I don't see anything their that constitutes an agreement. No credit limit, no specified APR, no sigs.

Anne Gartshore, if she exists, is a stranger to the truth.

Check out ' why you shouldn't use the 77/78 etc' on this forum (pt2537) its excellent.

[Fluffystuff]

Hi John,

 

I did indicate in my first post that the second scanned document (which states it is a copy of the agreement) came with the card.

It does specify a credit limit, I have just deleted it from the scan and it also sets out interest rates.

I just wonder if perhaps the blank space at the foot of column two may hold the signature boxes???? Guess it's reasonablke to think that as this doc also acted as the card holder, Halifax may have deleted this from our copy?

 

Only way to be sure is to pursue them for a copy bearing OH's signature as stated in previous post.

 

Will send off account in dispute letter and would love to cease payments, however am concerned that they might use their right of set off against our LLoyds current account as Halifax are now part of LLoyds Banking Group. Would they be able to do this?

[middenmess]

If you haven't already done so,why not invest £10 in a SAR to them.

 

It might well bring back a copy of your agreement.

 

It would also get you 6 years of statements which would give you the details of any unlawful charges that you can reclaim.

[johnerog]

fluffy.

1.I believe that if they had a signed copy of the agreement they would have sent it to you.

2.The need for sigs was not removed until 2006 and cannot be used retrospectively.

3.Beware; if they have access to your money in any way they will take it. I speak from experience.

I am using, as you know, what soopasnooper has suggested.I should know something this week. Will post ASAP.

[Fluffystuff]

Hi MM,

 

I think it best that we take the CPR route as if I understand correctly, a SAR does not always result in producucing what you want i.e. the original agreement.

Also, account charges are not an issue.

 

Thanks anyway.

[Fluffystuff]

John,

 

You intimate that you have suffered under the right of set off ruling - did this concern Halifax?

~

[middenmess]

Hi FS

 

I suggested using SAR as it produced CCA's for me.

 

It will also [should!] produce everything in the way of data that they hold on you.

 

As producing all data is a legal requirement, I believe, of an SAR it might be an argueable point if you ever went to court that if they produce the original in court then you should have had a copy sent to you under your SAR.

 

This might have made a difference as to whether you went to court and defended or not.

 

But I might be wrong in this train of thought and stand to be corrected.

[Fluffystuff]

Hi MM,

 

Understand your point completely but guess a CPR just cuts out the middleman (SAR), just incase the latter doesn't come up with the goods??

 

Would welcome any further comments - anybody, please.:?