Cabot financila (Vanquis CC) court summons is it too late to use CCA 1974?

[hunni2006]

any comments anyone?

Edited September 30, 2009 by hunni2006

[Rhia]

I think your letter is fine but your family member has a good point. Why keep asking them when you have given them ample time.

[hunni2006]

I think your letter is fine but your family member has a good point. Why keep asking them when you have given them ample time.

 

 

Thanks Rhia

I guess I'll just acknowledge receipt & leave it at that.

 

Have removed the details from the above two posts... just to be careful!

[hunni2006]

rang the court today as I still had not received anything....

 

The court had received the amended POC & docs.... but have not done anything with them! They will now pass them on to a judge because of my phonecall!

Gives you confidence in the court system!

[herbie171]

Hi Hunni I am herbie from this thread Just back from Court ***WON***

 

I have looked at the amended POC and see they have added CCA exhibited herewith "A"

Could you post that CCA please, Just added my defence if it helps

defence .doc

Edited October 2, 2009 by herbie171

[Rhia]

This is terrific Herbie and just what Hunn needs I think. They are such stubborn so and sos - they really should be stopped from bringing these vexatious claims.

[hunni2006]

first let me apologise for being vague, I have another thread that I started when I first received papers, but unfortunately I think it is being monitored by trolls from the other side, ( I found out through reading the computer logs they sent in response to my SA request) so I'm trying to keep this thread under the radar by avoiding names in my posts...

 

I am currently defending a claim by a debt collection agency who 'bought ' a credit card debt. (card account opened april 2006 online)

 

They filed the usual northampton CC claim, with vaque POC .

I responded with:

 

1. a CCA request to the DCA,
   
2. A CPR 31.14 to the solicitors requesting the agreement, default notices,notice of assignment, termination notice, and 'anything else they seek to rely on',
   
3. A CPR 18 for the same information ( just to be sure)
   
4. A SA request to the original creditor, *(unfortunately, I was new to this and the letter I sent just asked for details of the default charges)
   
5. A SA request to the DCA (proper one this time)
   
6. CPR 18 addendum - request for further information - for the Deed of assignment/bill of sale
   

I filed a ' holding defence' stating vague POC & the need to see the docs.

 

I recieved a response from the dca re the CCA request stating 'they do not hold the agreement on file, & will request from OC', and then 2 weeks later I got another stating that they had been unable to supply agreement & "we're suspending collection activities on the account until such time as the agreement was provided to me" Yippeee thinks me....

I recived a second letter saying pretty much the same,

and then I received an Allocation questionnaire & notice of transfer of court.:-?

 

Long story short

 

AQ filed, 2nd SA to OC, Account in dispute letter to DCA, Judge struck out claimants POC & gave 14 days to file amended POC together with supporting documents, they asked for & got 14 day extension & filed just in time. I recieved their papers last week. they include the following:-

 

• amended POC
  
• T&Cs as the agreement
  
• full set of CC statements
  
• computer log of 'action on the account' DCA files
  
• a letter from the OC which I never received sending me a copy of the T&C as a copy of the executed agreement in response to my CCA request. Odd because I never sent them a CCA request, this letter is dated the same day as the letter I received offering me a reund of charges, (a letter which, Suprisingly, doesnt appear in any of the papers I've been sent) And I was still receiving letters from the DCA 6 weeks after this saying the OC cannot find my agreement.
  
• A letter from the OC reporting to be the notice of assignment -funny, in the bundle from the DCA, They were the ones who sent the notice of assignment:rolleyes:
  
• a list of charges applied by the DCA
  
  

 

responses to my requests were as follows:-

 

 

• NO RESPONSE from solicitors to any of my CPR requests
  
• SA response from Original creditor prompted an immediate offer of refund of all default charges on the account- ( I had sent the wrong letter only asking for details of default charges)
  
• SA response from DCA included T&C's for the agreement, letters that I have never received, a copy of a default notice that is absolutely laughable, statements, computer logs,and a random page on a DCA letter head proporting to be the notice of assignment (the letter has nothing linking it to any other letter, nor has it any addresses on it or signatures, dates, etc.)
  
• Second SA was sent to OC (correct one this time) and the response was a stack of paper obviously from a screen print from the computer, but I Can't make sense of it, and details of the data processing etc. and that was it! their covering letter said " as your account has been sold we no longer hold your record on file.
  
• Fianlly, in response to an "account in Dispute letter" sent to the DCA I received a further set of statements, a new letter from the OC that I have never received dated only 3 weeks ago, quoting 'electronic signature' & a copy of the T&C again. The letter also stated they are allowed to process my data, even though the account is in dispute!
  

 

So, That's pretty much up to date.

 

So many things have come to light that I am begining to get confused as to what is relevant & what is not.

 

 

1. The original amount includes an amount for charges
   
2. there is no proof of any default notice from the OC
   
3. There is no termination notice
   
4. There is no proof of notice of assignment, ( even the OC & DCA can't agree on who sent it, and have only included 'representations' of letters sent)
   
5. There has been no response to my CPR requests at all by the solicitors
   
6. There has been no production of the deed of assignment
   
7. The T&C's do not constitute an enforceable agreement
   
8. the complete lack of information in the SA response from the OC is amazing... even the letters they supposedly sent to me since action began in May this year and included in the court bundle & the DCA bundles weren't in there.
   
9. the fact that they have tried to mislead me at every oppertunity by substituting letters that I have copies of, for different ones that I never received in the bundles.
   
10. I am concerned at the number of letters in these bundles that have never been received by me.
    
11. and finally, given that they haven't responded to my CPR requests, and have not filed copies of default notice, deed of assignment, notice of assignment, or any termination notice, will the judge just throw it out anyway?
    

Will post links to many of the above mentioned docs asap... just scanning & editing them, in the meantime, observations welcome & advice appreciated!

[hunni2006]

Will scan the doc in & post asap Herbie, thanks for the defence:D

[oneofakind]

It's ALL relevant, really...

This case appears to be such a shambles, they'd be stupid to try it on in court. Sadly, they often do, relying on lack of knowledge, or fear of the court process, to intimidate their victims into paying.

 

Defend stoutly!

 

D.

[citizenB]

Brb:d

[citizenB]

Second SA was sent to OC (correct one this time) and the response was a stack of paper obviously from a screen print from the computer, but I Can't make sense of it, and details of the data processing etc. and that was it! their covering letter said " as your account has been sold we no longer hold your record on file.

 

Did you send this letter in response to the statement made above ?

 

Document Retention

 

According to sections 221 and 222 of the Companies Act 1985, a public company is required to maintain records for a period of six years (section 222(5)(b).

 

As a loan agreement is active until the agreement is terminated, I would suggest that all the payment records (and other documents making up the file - including the agreement/application etc) would be "live" until the account is paid, or terminated - thus, the full file should be retained for at least six years after that.

 

This interpretation fits in with Inland Revenue legislation that requires prime documents to be retained for a period of six years - AFTER THE END OF THE RELEVANT ACCOUNTING PERIOD. That would mean some files need to be retained for up to seven years. The relevant legislation is found in Schedule 18 of the Finance Act 1998 (paragraph 21) - of particular significance is sub-paragraph (6) which states:

 

"The duty to preserve records under this paragraph includes a duty to preserve all supporting documents relating to the items mentioned in sub-paragraph (5)(a) and (b)."

 

I would suggest that where a loan has been taken out to repay an earlier agreement, at the very least, a copy of the original agreement should be kept - although this is something that a court may need to rule on.

 

Finally, key documents/application forms etc must be kept until 5 years after that business relationship has ended. This is a requirement of The Money Laundering Regulations 1993, 2003 and 2007.

 

They must provide you with a list of codes they use on their paperwork, in response to your SAR. If you are unable to understand what they have said. Then write to them asking for detailed explanations

Make a list of the letters you have received and those they say you have (but you havent) and check against the computerised lists. If you can prove they are not being strictly honest.. then you set that aside for inclusion in your arguments for court.

 

 

[hunni2006]

Have been looking for that info! I knew they had an obligation to keep the paperwork, I think it's funny that the DCA & the solicitors can come up with all the statements on my account, and letters apparently sent to me from the OC in the last 3 months, but the OC doesn't have any of them on file????

 

Was intending to send them a letter saying they have failed to comply with my SA request.

thanks CB

[hunni2006]

Still waiting to hear from court....

[citizenB]

Still waiting to hear from court....

 

I know it is going to be a pain, but due to the postal dispute, I would say contact the court at least twice a week.

[hunni2006]

will do....

[hunni2006]

Make a list of the letters you have received and those they say you have (but you havent) and check against the computerised lists. If you can prove they are not being strictly honest.. then you set that aside for inclusion in your arguments for court.

 

have just managed to figure out the printouts, and according to their records there has been no activity on my account since august/sept 2008! so they haven't even put down the letters I KNOW that they sent me, never mind all the ficticious ones in the DCA/Solicitors bundles!

 

I think I'll hang fire on that letter... This may be more use to me in court as it is!

[hunni2006]

waves at guest!

[hunni2006]

well, spoke to the court today....

apparently I should have filed an amended defence by now!

 

according to the guy on the phone, when the amended POC was served I should have responded within 14 days.

 

I explained that I had called the court and was told that nothing had been done & I was to wait for instructions.... but he apologised for that & said that the solicitors should have informed me that I had to respond when they sent the POC. - which of course they didn't.

 

If I hadn't rung the court today, it is possible that they could have got a judgement in default whilst I was sat here waiting to find out what I was meant to do next, and I wouldn't have even known about it! I'm bl**dy fuming!!!!!!

 

I asked the guy at court to make a note on the file to the effect that I was unaware I was supposed to file anything as no instructions had been given by either the court, or the claimants solicitors, and that I had contacted the court for advice on receipt of the amended POC and been given incorrect information, but that an amended defence will be filed by monday.

 

So It's nose to the grindstone now! GGRRRRRRR!

[hunni2006]

well, spoke to the court today....

apparently I should have filed an amended defence by now!

 

according to the guy on the phone, when the amended POC was served I should have responded within 14 days.

 

I explained that I had called the court and was told that nothing had been done & I was to wait for instructions.... but he apologised for that & said that the solicitors should have informed me that I had to respond when they sent the POC. - which of course they didn't.

 

If I hadn't rung the court today, it is possible that they could have got a judgement in default whilst I was sat here waiting to find out what I was meant to do next, and I wouldn't have even known about it! I'm bl**dy fuming!!!!!!

 

I asked the guy at court to make a note on the file to the effect that I was unaware I was supposed to file anything as no instructions had been given by either the court, or the claimants solicitors, and that I had contacted the court for advice on receipt of the amended POC and been given incorrect information, but that an amended defence will be filed by monday.

 

So It's nose to the grindstone now, the trouble is, where to start????

 

the amended POC at the link below. ( to view follow link & change view to 'main' at top right of screen - not too good with links! lol)

 

Image hosting, free photo sharing & video sharing at Photobucket

[citizenB]

Right you have until Monday you say. How the hell were you expected to know if no one told you ?. At least you have it on record.

 

If the original POC had been properly prepared you would have responded to each of the points. You will need to so with the amended POC.. but taking into account the original POC.

 

If you want to make a start and pop your drafts on here, then we can help you fine tune it.

[hunni2006]

I'm on it!

[hunni2006]

I have found conflicting advice on the structure a defence should take, some people seem to have pages and pages citing case law & precedents, where as with others the defence is listed as brief statements.

 

My own intention was to respond to each point of the now 3 page POC with a brief statement of fact, and in the cases where I need to refer to case law, precedents or whatever else, attach a printout of the relevant section in an appendix at the back of the defence, along with all the other documents. In that way the judge is made aware of the issues, and doesn't get bored & stop reading. ( something I read in a post) basically going with the 2nd school of thought. would you agree?

The only other question I had was, is it appropriate to draw the courts attention to 'dirty tricks' in the fact that I am being sent misleading and possibly forged information in response to my SA requests from the DCA? If so, would I just put together a covering letter explaining what they are doing?

[citizenB]

Good job you phoned the court have replied next door;)

[citizenB]

I have found conflicting advice on the structure a defence should take, some people seem to have pages and pages citing case law & precedents, where as with others the defence is listed as brief statements.

 

My own intention was to respond to each point of the now 3 page POC with a brief statement of fact, and in the cases where I need to refer to case law, precedents or whatever else, attach a printout of the relevant section in an appendix at the back of the defence, along with all the other documents. In that way the judge is made aware of the issues, and doesn't get bored & stop reading. ( something I read in a post) basically going with the 2nd school of thought. would you agree?

The only other question I had was, is it appropriate to draw the courts attention to 'dirty tricks' in the fact that I am being sent misleading and possibly forged information in response to my SA requests from the DCA? If so, would I just put together a covering letter explaining what they are doing?

 

 

A defence should answer the points in the POC. A witness statement is a little more detailed.

 

I think your plan is the right way to go.

 

I see no reason why you cant include reference to the "dirty tricks" campaign they have waged in order to frustrate your attempts to defend yourself properly:)

 

Perhaps a separate letter to the Court Manger apologising for the delay in submitting the amended defence and the reason for this is...... !!

[hunni2006]

A defence should answer the points in the POC. A witness statement is a little more detailed. when do witness statements come in to it?

 

I think your plan is the right way to go. me too, cos I confuse myself by the time I'm finished! I'm going to answer each point, then try & remember which bit of what I need to go where..... if you know what I mean!

 

I see no reason why you cant include reference to the "dirty tricks" campaign they have waged in order to frustrate your attempts to defend yourself properly:)

 

Perhaps a separate letter to the Court Manger apologising for the delay in submitting the amended defence and the reason for this is...... !!That's just the subject I came back online to ask about! I was going to include an apology to the court for the lateness of my response.

 

Thanks CB, keep going offline as this site is too distracting! need to stay on task! lol:-|