2 CCA Requests to BOS. Replies received. Enforceable or Not?

[sharmar]

Hello All,

My very first post here after months of following many threads and discussions and finally hopefully finding the correct forum area to post to!

 

I have recently sent off CCA requests to Bank of Scotland, for two accounts, one for BOS Sainsburys credit card and one for Bank of Scotland card.

I have received back, from Bank of Scotland, cover letters and enclosed print offs of credit agreements listing terms and conditions etc, not original or signed in anyway.

They appear to be computer generated print offs rather than photocopies in terms of quality and both have a Ref No at end that starts with.. 'AFFLOW' followed by further reference letters and numbers, numbers different on each print off.

 

I have just signed up to Photobucket so I will attempt to scan and post up what I have received tomorrow. I would really be most grateful for any advice or guidance on what to do next, as I'm not sure if they are enforceable or not.

One (Sainsburys Bank credit card)dates back to 2003 and the other one (Bank of Scotland credit card) to 2004.

 

Hoping all the good brain-power around here can help me out. Til tomorrow then! Off to bed happy now that I've finally completed my virgin post!

[clemma]

From what you have said they could be unenforceable, but will check back later after you have scanned the documents on here

[sharmar]

Finally! Only a week later due to scan/printer problem, I have now managed to upload the docs as below..

 

Not sure if I should do two separate threads as one is headed Sainsburys Bank but as you can see from the address on both letters, it is the same, as they are part of same group etc - so have put both on here - hoping this is OK to do..

 

This is all I have received back from both requests and I have no arrears so wondering if I should withold future payments until they send me something signed. Any idea's as to what I should do next, what correspondence should I follow up with?

 

I have uploaded in order below, firstly BOS reply received on 23rd April last, plus 2 pages of original documentation which came with the card in June 2004 which I found in my files.

 

I have then uploaded the same, in same order for the Sainsburys card.

 

Bank of Scotland CCA Reply letter plus original docs Pg 1 and 2 links that came with the card in June 04:-

 

http://i566.photobucket.com/albums/ss106/39belfry/John%20Lewis%20Docs/BOS%20Sainsburys/ReplyfromBOSinrequestforCCA.jpg

 

 

http://i566.photobucket.com/albums/ss106/39belfry/John%20Lewis%20Docs/BOS%20Sainsburys/DocrecwithBOScardin2004Pg1.jpg

 

http://i566.photobucket.com/albums/ss106/39belfry/John%20Lewis%20Docs/BOS%20Sainsburys/Pg2DocrecwithBOSCardinJun04.jpg

 

 

Sainsbury Reply & Original Docs:-

 

http://i566.photobucket.com/albums/ss106/39belfry/John%20Lewis%20Docs/BOS%20Sainsburys/sainsburysbankreplytoCCArequest.jpg

 

http://i566.photobucket.com/albums/ss106/39belfry/John%20Lewis%20Docs/BOS%20Sainsburys/Sainsburysdocpg1receivedwithcardin2.jpg

 

http://i566.photobucket.com/albums/ss106/39belfry/John%20Lewis%20Docs/BOS%20Sainsburys/Pg2ofdocrecwithSainsbcardin2003.jpg

 

 

Would greatly appreciate the thoughts of all the brainpower on here, on what I've received back.

thanks in advance.

[silverfox1961]

Hi,

As far as I can tell, they are generic terms and conditions.

Not only have the omitted your signature, there is nowhere to put your signature.

What I suspect they have done is to print your details on the top of a blank agreement (both of them)

 

You have choices now.

Either put the account into dispute which they will deny and they will probably put the account into the hands of a DCA OR

Have a look at this thread:

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/legal-issues/173201-why-you-shouldnt-use.html

Sainsbugs will probably put your account into the hands of a DCA.

 

Either way, a debt collector will be coming even though they shouldn't be doing so while the account is in dispute.

 

If you sent them a SAR instead, they have to supply you with everything they hold on you and if they have a valid agreement, then they should include that too.

 

 

hope that helps

 

fox

[sharmar]

Thanks.

 

Will put both Accounts in Dispute and SAR them both too!

[sharmar]

I have downloaded a template to send letters stating that the account is in dispute,however the replies i received to my request for CCA's state that they have complied with the necessary requirements by sending blank terms and conditions and a blank agreement

 

Has anyone got any other letters that I could use, that emphasise that the original signed agreement was what was requested or other examples of letter of dispute that I could use.

[silverfox1961]

Don't know which one's you have looked at so far but here is a one i know of:

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collection-industry/172071-letter-co-solicitors.html#post1856406

 

There's this one too:

 

Dear Sirs,

 

Account Number: XXX

 

Re; your recent reply to my request under section 77-79 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974

 

I note that you have replied to the above by sending your companies current Terms and conditions I must inform you that this is not sufficient to comply with the request and that your company is still in default under the act.

 

To clarify, just sending the Terms and Conditions is a breach of the Act and Regulations as, apart from the information that the Regulations provide that you may exclude, the copy must be a “true copy” of the agreement.

 

This breach of the agreement can be demonstrated as follows;

As you will know section 180(1) (b) authorises, “the omission from a copy of certain material from the original, or the inclusion of certain material in condensed form.” This refers to statutory instruments made under the heading Copies of document regulations and in this care in particular to SI 1983/1557.

 

Before leaving section 180 there are two other sections that should be remembered these are:

 

Section 2(2) (a) A duty imposed by any provision of this Act (except section 35) to supply a copy of any document is not satisfied unless the copy supplied is in the prescribed form and conforms to the prescribed requirements;

 

And more importantly

 

Section 2(b) A duty imposed by any provision of this Act (except section 35) to supply a copy of any document is not infringed by the omission of any material, or its inclusion in condensed form, if that is authorised by regulations.

 

You will see that this quite clearly states that whilst certain items may be left out of the copy document the rest of the document must be in the form and contain all items as prescribed by the regulations.

 

Turning to the regulations regarding what may be omitted from these copies these are contained with SI 1983/1557.

 

The regulations state:

(2) There may be omitted from any such copy-

(a) any information included in an executed agreement, security instrument or other document relating to the debtor, hirer or surety or included for the use of the creditor or owner only which is not required to be included therein by the Act or any Regulations thereunder as to the form and content of the document of which it is a copy;

(b) any signature box, signature or date of signature (other than, in the case of a copy of a cancelable executed agreement delivered to the debtor under section 63(1) of the Act, the date of signature by the debtor of an agreement to which section 68(b) of the Act applies);

 

It is quite clear what can be omitted from the copy document, this again asserts that all other details of the agreement should presented in form and content as required by the regulations.

 

The requirements of the Agreement regulations 1983/1553 are very explicit in describing the form and content of an agreement and this as I have demonstrated also applies to the copy of any such agreement with the above mentioned proviso.

 

Nowhere within these regulations does it state that part of the agreement can be presented on a separate document headed terms and conditions.

It does state that all terms and conditions should be within the agreement document and is explicit of the form in which it is presented.

 

I hope this explains why your reply was unacceptable I await a True copy of my agreement and would remind you again that whilst the request has not been complied with the default continues

 

Yours faithfully

 

If they are illegible then add this....

 

Also please note that what you have sent me is illegible, I bring your attention to -

 

Consumer Credit (Cancellation Notices and Copies of Documents)

Regulations 1983 (SI 1983/1557)

 

 

Quote:

2 Legibility of notices and copy documents and wording of prescribed Forms

 

(1) The lettering in every notice in a Form prescribed by these Regulations and in every copy of an executed agreement, security instrument or other document referred to in the Act and delivered or sent to a debtor, hirer or surety under any provision of the Act shall, apart from any signature, be easily legible and of a colour which is readily

distinguishable from the .

(2) The wording of any Form prescribed by these Regulations shall be reproduced in copies of unexecuted or executed

agreements or in Notices of Cancellation Rights sent [by an appropriate method] under section 64(1)(b) or (2) of the Act

without any alteration or addition, except that--

(a) the creditor or owner may enter the name and address of the debtor or hirer in any Cancellation Form prescribed

by these Regulations; and

(b) every Form shall be completed in accordance with any footnote.

(3) Any such footnote shall not be treated as part of any Form prescribed by these Regulations and may be reproduced

in addition to any such Form.

(4) Where any such footnote requires any words to be omitted, those words shall be omitted or deleted.

__________________

[sharmar]

Thankyou Silverfox! Great letters!

 

Will get them off in the post today and await their responses!

[sharmar]

Strange Letter received in reply to A/C in Dispute from Sainsburys Bank - suggestions anyone??

 

I put the Sainsburys Bank credit card account in dispute, (as per previous posts here) and this week received the following letter from them:-

Link here to Photobucket:-

http://i566.photobucket.com/albums/ss106/39belfry/SainsburysBankStrangeReplyLetter.jpg

 

As you will see from this letter, they addressed it to myself and my account details/No etc was correct, however, they did not enclose any copy of a CCA as they mention in the letter and also on the 5th paragraph refer to someone called Mr Mohammed M---------t (I've erased his last name for his privacy!!), who I've never heard of in my life!

 

Could anyone explain this to me?? Was this letter sent in error with his name on it to me, however, it was addressed to me and had my a/c no as a reference, how should I respond to them now. All suggestions welcome!!

[beanbaby]

hi there l sent a cca req to the lovely halifax on 2/4/09 dispute letter on 28/4 and token payment letter on 8/5

 

yup , suprise surprise ... only had reply to token £1 payment letter , offer accepted + thank u v much :mad:

 

l am positively itching to push it to see if they have a valid signed cca

 

lm happy to pay £1 [l know l dont have to ] its a £6.500 debt but would be great to know they could not ccj me or bankrupt me

 

any suggestions before l spontaniously combust :D

[silverfox1961]

Strange Letter received in reply to A/C in Dispute from Sainsburys Bank - suggestions anyone??

 

I put the Sainsburys Bank credit card account in dispute, (as per previous posts here) and this week received the following letter from them:-

Link here to Photobucket:-

http://i566.photobucket.com/albums/ss106/39belfry/SainsburysBankStrangeReplyLetter.jpg

 

As you will see from this letter, they addressed it to myself and my account details/No etc was correct, however, they did not enclose any copy of a CCA as they mention in the letter and also on the 5th paragraph refer to someone called Mr Mohammed M---------t (I've erased his last name for his privacy!!), who I've never heard of in my life!

 

Could anyone explain this to me?? Was this letter sent in error with his name on it to me, however, it was addressed to me and had my a/c no as a reference, how should I respond to them now. All suggestions welcome!!

 

 

got your PM.

 

Seems very strange that they included that name as I can see that your a miss I would write back informing them of their error and that you will also inform the information commissioner about their lack of data protection.

 

Regarding the non-existent CCA. I'm beginning to wonder if they write that in the letters to throw a court off. If you took them to court to enforce your request, they could say "well we included it. Just look at this letter"

Personally, I would write and tell them in no uncertain terms that they didn't include the CCA and to send it forthwith. Make your letter a formal complaint, They then have up to 8 weeks to resolve it. If they don't, complain to the OFT, Trading Standards, the FOS and your MP.

[sharmar]

Hi All,

Continuing the saga of Bank of Scotland CCA request. I have received from them a p/copy of the Application Form and they had also p/copied onto the reverse of this copy received, some terms.

 

It is not signed by the company, and just wondering where I stand regarding the enforceability of this? It seems pretty comprehensive but maybe one of you can see something missing that I can't??

Would appreciate you looking over it.

Here are the links for both front Applic and Reverse copy received;

 

http://i566.photobucket.com/albums/ss106/39belfry/BankofScotApplicForm1.jpg

http://i566.photobucket.com/albums/ss106/39belfry/BankofScotReverseofappform.jpg

 

many thanks

Sharmar

Edited June 13, 2009 by sharmar

[diddydicky]

Hi All,

Continuing the saga of Bank of Scotland CCA request. I have received from them a p/copy of the Application Form and they had also p/copied onto the reverse of this copy received, some terms.

 

It is not signed by the company, and just wondering where I stand regarding the enforceability of this? It seems pretty comprehensive but maybe one of you can see something missing that I can't??

Would appreciate you looking over it.

Here are the links for both front Applic and Reverse copy received;

 

http://i566.photobucket.com/albums/ss106/39belfry/BankofScotApplicForm1.jpg

http://i566.photobucket.com/albums/ss106/39belfry/BankofScotReverseofappform.jpg

 

many thanks

Sharmar

 

check carefully to s ee if there is anything on the front page which refers to the items on the "alleged" back page"

[sharmar]

I can't see anything on the front page referring to terms on the reverse!

 

But on the back page there is a reference to the application form overleaf in the centre of the page!

 

Would this mean it is enforceable then? :confused:

[diddydicky]

its only enforceable by order of a court anyway as it is not properly executed

 

( it should be headed Credit CARD agreement not credit agreement

[silverfox1961]

In my opinion, it is unenforceable. As Diddy says, the wording needs to be accurate.

 

One way to find out is to write back and state that you still believe that the agreement is duff and you will fully defend any action they wish to take.

 

I don't know if you have looked at this thread but it could be used to attempt to get them to reveal if that is all they have.

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/legal-issues/173201-why-you-shouldnt-use.html

[sharmar]

got your PM.

 

Seems very strange that they included that name as I can see that your a miss I would write back informing them of their error and that you will also inform the information commissioner about their lack of data protection.

 

Regarding the non-existent CCA. I'm beginning to wonder if they write that in the letters to throw a court off. If you took them to court to enforce your request, they could say "well we included it. Just look at this letter"

Personally, I would write and tell them in no uncertain terms that they didn't include the CCA and to send it forthwith. Make your letter a formal complaint, They then have up to 8 weeks to resolve it. If they don't, complain to the OFT, Trading Standards, the FOS and your MP.

 

 

 

Hi all,

Just quoted Silverfox's recent reply to an ongoing scenario with Sainsburys Bank - I have now worded out (with great help from those on here ) a reply and would really appreciate if you guys would read over such to see if it all is OK before I post it off - I've done it as a Formal Letter of complaint so just wondering if I've covered all?? thanks.

There's a link further back on the thread to an upload of the letter they sent me mentioning someone else's name etc, so here is letter I am sending in reply, does it make sense??:-

 

Formal Complaint – Letter Before Action

29th June 2009

Dear Sirs,

Re: Acount No

 

On 2nd April 2009 I made a formal request for a true signed agreement for the alleged account under the Consumer Credit Act 1974 Sections(s)77-79 with a £1.00 postal order.

 

It was signed for on delivery by a member of your staff on the 3rd April 2009. On the 21st April 2009 you sent me a photocopy of terms and conditions.

 

You then sent me a letter dated 22nd May 2009, (copy enclosed), this letter refers to a Mr Mohammed M*********t, a name that is unfamiliar to me and a person unknown to me. It also states that it was enclosing a copy of the original signed agreement, however nothing was enclosed with this letter.

Therefore you have failed to comply with my request.

 

The document that you are obliged to send me is a true copy of the executed agreement that contained all of the prescribed terms, all other required terms and statutory notices and was signed by both your company and myself as defined in Section 61(1) of Consumer Credit Act 1974 and subsequent Statutory Instruments. If the executed agreement contained any reference to any other document, you are also obliged to send me a copy of that document.

 

 

As you may be aware, failure to comply with this request within 12 working days renders the alleged debt UNENFORCEABLE in law. Furthermore you should be aware that a creditor is not permitted to take ANY action against an account whilst it remains in dispute. These limits have expired.

 

The lack of a compliant credit agreement is a very clear dispute and as such the following applies.

 

* may not demand any payment on the account, nor am I obliged to offer any payment to you.

* may not add further interest or any charges to the account.

* may not pass the account to a third party.

* may not register any information in respect of the account with any credit reference agency.

* may not issue a default notice related to the account.

 

Therefore this account has become unenforceable at law.

 

Consequentially any legal action you pursue will be averred as both UNLAWFUL and VEXATIOUS.

 

Furthermore I shall counter-claim that any such action constitutes unlawful harassment.

 

Please note you may also consider this letter as a statutory notice under section 10 of the Data Protection Act to cease processing any data in relation to this account with immediate effect.

 

This means you must remove all information regarding this account from your own internal records and from my records with any credit reference agencies.

 

Should you refuse to comply, you must within 21 days provide me with a detailed breakdown of your reasoning behind continuing to process my data.

 

It is not sufficient to simply state that you have a ‘legal right’. You must outline your reasoning in this matter and state upon which legislation this reasoning depends.

 

After taking advice, I am also of the opinion that your continued pursuit is in violation of the Administration of Justice Act 1970 section 40, Protection from harassment Act 1997 section 3 as well as breaching a number of the OFT Collection Guidelines.

 

I reserve the right to report your actions to any such regulatory authorities as I see fit.

 

You have 14 days from receiving this letter to contact me with your intentions to resolve this matter which is now a formal complaint.

 

I hope that you will enter into a sincere dialogue with me about this matter and I am writing this letter to you on the assumption that you would prefer to do this than merely respond with standard letters and leaflets.

 

I would appreciate your due diligence in this matter.

 

I await your rapid response.

 

Yours Faithfully

[clemma]

Looks good to me

[sharmar]

Hi All,

I have started a new thread for the Sainsburys CCA saga so I will devote this thread to the Bank of Scotland saga herewith.

 

The account has been in dispute since last May and I received a default notice from B of Scot on 25th June last, giving me until 9th July to remedy. I have not responded to this as advised on the threads and this timescale would make the default notice invalid as it only allowed 14 days in total.

 

I have not yet, as of today, received any termination notice and charges are continually being added to the account.

 

In August I have received several letters from 'Albion Collections Ltd' - I dont know if they are part of or connected to Bank of Scotland?

 

In the beginning of September, a company called 'Power to Contact' came to my front door and left a card requesting I contact them within the next 24 hours. I was out briefly at the time, but a neighbour saw a chap standing outside and writing a note. I was surprised that they did doorstep calls and not sure how to respond to this or where I should go from here with the account?

Anyone know who Albion Collections and Power To Contact are? and if they are debt collection agents does this mean my debt has been sold on- even if the account is in dispute?

[silverfox1961]

I do believe that Albion are part of HBOS.

Power to Contact are a tracing agency.

 

Send Albion a copy of this:

 

http://www.consumerforums.com/resources/templates-library/86-debt-collectors/590-letter-used-when-a-dca-threatens-a-doorstep-visit-.html

 

and keep a copy by the door should anyone turn up again. Just hand it to them and politely slam the door If they persist, ring the police (not 999)

and say you are being harassed by some dodgy geezer.

 

fox

[sharmar]

Thankyou Silverfox!

 

Letter in post today!