Underwriting Sheet - Using CPR31.16

[42man]

If you are attempting to get the Underwriting Sheet, the only possible way forward is to use the CPR 31.16 as outlined in this thread - http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/legal-issues/173201-why-you-shouldnt-use.html

 

· details of any agreements between lender/broker/packager, written or unwritten, in relation to commissions or any other payments

· Underwriting sheet or other such document recording any commission (or other) payment made to an intermediary or packager

 

This cagger did win as a result of taking the non compliance with the CPR31.16 - http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collection-industry/165349-smt37-morgan-stanley-goldfish-3.html#post2119750

 

Be advised that if it is returned and there is no figure on the sheet it has probably been deleted, in which case you can order them to confirm that it is a true copy, and possibly inspect the original....

[42man]

You are entitled to the data contained within a document if it falls within certain filing systems under the Data Protection Act a good case to see this is in Ezzias vs Welsh Ministers

 

Under CPR 31.16 you are entitled to the copy of the actual document

[heliosfa]

So what would be the first stes to getting the underwriting sheet? do we just send them a letter requesting it?

 

As for the "evidence" i am guessing that we would need to provide the request and details about other instances of secret comissions?

 

H

[42man]

This is a work in progress......I need it verified by a higher authority...!!

 

Civil Procedure Rules 31.16

 

Dear Sirs

 

Account number

 

I write with regards to the above account with your organisation.

 

I respectfully request that you provide me by return a true copy of the underwriting sheet or any other documents showing any commissions paid by you to the broker or by the broker to you. I require this as I have reason to believe that there may be undisclosed commissions.

 

Obviously if the agreement is improperly executed I would be entitled to ask the court to consider the agreement and make a declaration of the rights of parties to the agreement.

 

I must stress this request is NOT made pursuant to section 78 Consumer Credit Act 1974 but is made pursuant to the Civil Procedure Rules ( Pre action protocols and Part 31.16) and therefore only a copies of the original documents in its unaltered form will suffice in these circumstances

 

I do not view this as an unreasonable request given that by supplying the document which I have asked for it will allow me to assess if my case has merit and will help to resolve matters possibly without the need to involve the court and will undoubtedly save costs on both sides

 

I look forward to your reply and would ask for a response by 4pm on XXXX Date ( Give 21 days to respond)

 

Regards

[landy_alert]

Hi 42man,

 

We specifically asked for a copy of the Underwriting Sheet or other document showing commission in our SAR, but what we received was an A4 sheet with details of our income, property value, other mortgage plus lots of other figures relating to these etc but absolutely no reference to commission etc. In their accompanying letter they refer to this document as the 'Underwriting details'. Now I don't know whether this is what an underwriting sheet would look like if there WAS no secret commission, or whether they have deliberately sent us something different assuming we wouldn't know what it should look like (which we don't!). We did pay a disclosed commission to the broker, but this isn't mentioned on there as far as I can see either.

 

Regards,

 

Landy x

[postggj]

42 Man

 

Ime Glad We Think Along The Same Lines

 

The Usual Crap From A Certain Insurance Co Is Bog Off

 

Corporate Sensativity

 

Only A Disclosure Order Through The Courts Would Force Them To Release This Data

 

We Are In Need Of A Cast Iron Template In Law To Use

 

Go For It

[42man]

Postggj is spot on in saying that only a court order will reveal these details.....Landy, they haven't sent you the underwriting sheet !!!

[heliosfa]

This is a work in progress......I need it verified by a higher authority...!!

 

Civil Procedure Rules 31.16

 

Dear Sirs

 

Account number

 

I write with regards to the above account with your organisation.

 

I respectfully request that you provide me by return a true copy of the underwriting sheet or any other documents showing any commissions paid by you to the broker or by the broker to you. I require this as I have reason to believe that there may be undisclosed commissions.

 

Obviously if your organisation has paid, or has been paid, an undisclosed commission, I would be entitled to rescind the contract or seek other remedies.

 

I must stress this request is made pursuant to the Civil Procedure Rules ( Pre action protocols and Part 31.16) and therefore only a copies of the original documents in its unaltered form will suffice in these circumstances. I reserve the right to seek a court order for your compliance should you refuse.

 

I do not view this as an unreasonable request given that by supplying the document which I have asked for it will allow me to assess if my case has merit and will help to resolve matters possibly without the need to involve the court and will undoubtedly save costs on both sides

 

I look forward to your reply and would ask for a response by 4pm on XXXX Date ( Give 21 days to respond)

 

Regards

 

Just a bit of tweaking to remove the CCA stuff 42Man. Still needs to be checked by a Guru though

 

H

Edited June 12, 2009 by 42man

[42man]

I'm on it HFA...!!

[heliosfa]

I'm on it HFA...!!

 

 

oops, sorry, I meant I had already tweaked it for you

 

H

[jon_boy75]

hi...i would just need to change the wording for a default notice request, right?

[frettful38]

When you make a request for the Underwriting-Sheet using the CPR31.16 rule does this only apply to CCA requests under £25k or can this method be used to send to Financial Institutions (Loan Companies) secured loans over £25k?

 

If the loan companies i.e are unregulated can a borrower still make this request of the underwriting sheet to their loan provider?

 

thanks for any response or help regarding the above questions.

[42man]

You can use it, it is nothing to do with the CCA74.....

[frettful38]

Thanks 42man,

[42man]

Just adding this - Imageview Management Ltd vs Kelvin Jack - interesting case referred to me as it involves a conflict of interest, fees (brokers and loan companies) and fidiciary duties....

[frettful38]

You can use it, it is nothing to do with the CCA74.....

 

Hi 42man, another question regarding using the CPR31.16, can you use this to request your Subject Access Request too or not?

[postggj]

The Sar Is Under The Dpa

 

It Would Be The Ico For Non Compliance

[frettful38]

Thanks postggj,

[landy_alert]

Hi everyone:)

 

I was wondering if I could use CPR 31.16 in the following situation -

 

I have an issue where M&S Money are refusing to refund some charges which they say were incurred as a result of legal action being taken against Mr Landy. We received no court papers relating to this.

 

Having done a SAR there were no copies of any documents relating to legal action, only a note that his account was being referred to litigation in July 2008. In November 2008 we repaid the account in full and closed it. If he had been taken to court surely there would have been notification of some kind?

 

Would it be possible to use CPR 31.16 to find out if any legal action was ever started against Mr L, and if so what do we need to ask for?

 

M&S have offered to refund some charges and it is my intention to file at court for the full amount, so would be using this as a pre-action protocol, but obviously don't want to do so until I am certain we are entitled to reclaim them all!

 

Landy x

[Sparkie1723]

You can make a CPR31.16 request but the other side does not have to anything about it at all .they can and do ignore it..........but once you have made it they cannot produce any more documents to use against you after the date of the request..........the thing about this CPR 31.16 is that you can ask the Court to make an order for specific disclosure......that is to say if you want a specific document .you can force it to be produced under this CPR Order, the problem under this CPR is that it is a very tight CPR............. you must give exact and precise instructions about what you want and why you want it it ...Courts are not too forthcoming in making such an order that is why you must be precise and to the Book ..............believe me I've used it once before...and it is a tight one. .............Cost me £85 for the application for the order to be made.

sparkie

[postggj]

Sparkie

 

Whats The Court Fee For An Enforcement Order Ref Non Compliance With A Cpr Request

 

 

SORRY 85 QUID

 

 

HOW LONG DID YOU HAVE TO WAIT FOR THE ORDER

Edited December 31, 2009 by postggj

[landy_alert]

You can make a CPR31.16 request but the other side does not have to anything about it at all .they can and do ignore it..........but once you have made it they cannot produce any more documents to use against you after the date of the request..........the thing about this CPR 31.16 is that you can ask the Court to make an order for specific disclosure......that is to say if you want a specific document .you can force it to be produced under this CPR Order, the problem under this CPR is that it is a very tight CPR............. you must give exact and precise instructions about what you want and why you want it it ...Courts are not too forthcoming in making such an order that is why you must be precise and to the Book ..............believe me I've used it once before...and it is a tight one. .............Cost me £85 for the application for the order to be made.

sparkie

 

Thanks for that Sparkie:D

 

Trouble is, I'm not really sure what doc I should be asking for in this case.........I suppose my first thought was that by sending a CPR 31.16 request (if I knew what doc I needed, lol!) to M&S, this might call their bluff into increasing their refund offer, without me actually having to apply for the court to force compliance. By the sound of it maybe I'd best leave well alone!

[Sparkie1723]

HI landy.

If you read CPR 31 in full you will see that it is a stiff CPR

If you make an application under CPR31.16 for a specific document(s) to be produced and they say they have not got it ........and you find out later they have .....then it IS OFF to prison for someone without any doubt whatsoever.

 

If a judge does make an order under 31.16 and later finds out it was not obeyed he/she is not a very happy person

[landy_alert]

Thanks Sparkie - will add 'reading the full CPR 31' to my list of things to do/New Year resolutions and will make sure I'm fully aware of what I'm doing before I take this any further;)

[frettful38]

Thanks Sparkie - will add 'reading the full CPR 31' to my list of things to do/New Year resolutions and will make sure I'm fully aware of what I'm doing before I take this any further;)

 

 

That's me and you both landy:D