MBNA SAR Request

[Guest HeftyHippo]

hmm. bit of a strange thing that. MBNA are generally quite consistent in that they issue a DN (which usually doesn't give enough rectification time) and then sell the account a week later.

 

They seem to have done differently here.

 

I was going to say "If you are sure you have documented evidence that the account was SOLD (not handled, passed to etc) a 3rd party"

then simply write and accept the closure of the account.

 

But, in the last few days I've seen a thread that debates if a creditor can sell the account and the contract. Some say yes, as long as the buyer runs the account according to the original agreement. Others say no, if they sell the account, it is closed, the contract ends and cannot be run by someone else.

 

So, to recap and clarify your situation, MBNA sold the account. Were you informed by virtue of a Notice of Assignment from MBNA either before or after the sale date? Did Experto write to you and explain they were acting for Varde or anyone?

 

Have Experto stated the basis for their business with you? Ie, have they stated the agreement will continue as it was, or have they given any indication in any way that there is any form of pre-existing agreement that you are both bound by? Or, as I suspect, is it a case of you owe money to someone (either Experto or Varde), and we are attempting to get an agreement from you about how you will repay it?

 

If the former, they are laying claim that they are continuing where MBNA left off, and administering the old agreement. If the latter, the old agreement ended and they want a payment plan. (this is to settle the position as to whether a debt can be sold but the agreement continues with the buyer)

 

It would be immensly helpful if you scanned the letters (no personal details) and posted them so we can see.

 

If there is no indication that the agreement is being run by Experto, and that the debt was sold, then as that happened before the Default Notice, then MBNA did as they always do and unlawfully terminated the agreement. You can simply write and say

 

"Thank you for your letter of zz where you confirm the sale of the debt to Experto on xx.

 

Under the circumstances, I accept the sale, and consider the Credit Card agreement between us is ended. Thank you for being so nice and assisting me blah blah"

 

No need to use technical jargon about contract recision, repudiation etc. Just make it clear the agreement is ended and there is no business between you. That will buy you time. If they get a hint they have screwed up, they may react and come up with some excuse that the agreement continues - admin error, confusion about account numbers etc

 

If a month or 2 goes by and then Experto are told the legal facts, its a bit late for them to be saying there was error. Just my personal preference to avoid a whirlwind of excuses and contradictions. Get the acceptance in, wait. After a while, in a confused manner, asking why theyre still going on about something they relinguished their rights to

 

The other thing about waiting, is that it's commonly thought that DCAs get debts on sale or return for 6 months or so. After 6 months if they don't think they'll make a profit from the debt, they hand it back (Geewez commented on it earlier)

 

If you tip them off straight away, they hand the debt back to MBNA. If you wait, they may decide to confirm the purchase and it gets much harder for them to claim admin errors etc. (its difficult for them to convince anyone they've been sending the same wrong letter by mistake for 8 months about them owning the account and preparing to take you to court, and only realise they dont own the account because you point out that MBNA screwed it up and in doin so repudiated the contract so that Experto cannot pursue the balance. It looks transparent)

 

In effect, they take a loss on the deal before they realise they bought a pile of rubbish. If more DCAs took bigger hits, maybe all debts would be handled and documented better as not doing so would make DCAs reluctant to touch them apart from those who are stupid to buy debts that cannot be pursued or those who operate in such margin conditions that they actually want to buy such debts at such a low low price. Eventually creditors might realise that just like a car with a full service history and looked after properly is worth more to a buyer than one that hasnt been looked after and has no documentation, a debt with all the paperwork in order sells for more than one without because missing paperwork or paperwork wrongly issued lowers the chance of recovery

 

I assume you did the prelims and checked out the validity of the MBNA agreement in the first place? Many are not.

Edited April 25, 2010 by HeftyHippo

[Stagparty]

Thanks for that HH, that's a pretty Hefty response! Thanks for the time you took replying.

 

I'll try dealing with your questions, but please excuse me if I miss any or misunderstand your questions.

 

Firstly I'll give you the time lines and what happened.

 

1. Early 2009 I got into trouble financially and contacted CCCS and was advised to offer token payments.
   
2. Contacted creditors (including MBNA)
   
3. MBNA wanted more than the token, I couldn't afford it so they got the token payment only.
   
4. MBNA passed it to RMA who were equallu unsuccessful - they can't have what I don't have
   
5. Made formal complaint to MBNA and it was brought back in house.
   
6. In Sept 2009 I was offered a greatly reduced full and final settlement (approx 65% discount, leaving 35% payable). I couldnt afford this.
   
7. In Sept 09 I sent the £1 CCA request. I took the account out on 1 April 2007, applying over the internet. They sent the info 6 October.
   
8. 23 Oct I got a letter from Experto saying that Varde had "bought the interest of MBNA in the above referenced account including the outstanding balance. Consequently Varde is now the legal owner of the account. Under the terms of the assignment Experto has been assigned by Varde to recover any and all outstanding sums"
   
9. I wrote to Experto saying "I don't recognise the account number - who are you" and kept sending the monthly token payment to MBNA
   
10. I've never had a proper response from Experto.
    
11. I got a DN notice dated 25 January 2010 from MBNA with a remedy date of 12 February sent by UK mail (debatable whether or not it is compliant on a date basis too)
    
12. I got a letter from MBNA 30 Jan saying my data may have been compromised by RMA so called and they told me the account "had been sold to Experto 17 October" - I have this call recorded.
    
13. Feb 2 - got a letter from Experto thanking me for agreeing to repay my account with them. I wrote and complained at their misrepresentation as I have never communicated with them about payment, let alone agreed to pay them anything. (I've had 3 or 4 of these letters and made a formal complaint. The 8 weeks is now up and I have had no response so the FOS is probably my next point of call)
    
14. 24 February - got letter allegedly from MBNA (It's printed on MBNA letterhead) saying that "the outstanding balance due under the above account has been assigned to Experto". It was posted from Experto's address. Note also that Experto's letter dated last October said it had been assigned to Varde and Experto assigned to act for Varde)
    
15. Kept paying my token payment to MBNA with the letter wording carefully changed to "payment against any lawful and genuine arrears"
    
16. Got letter from Experto thanking me for agreeing to repay my account with them! And that the first payment is due in April as agreed with their Account Manager. (I've never spoken to them to agree anything, so it adds weight to the FOS complaint)
    
17. Got letter from Experto saying they may have been corresponding using an "internal" reference number (Ie the Charge Off one allocated by MBNA) and clarifying the number to use going forward.
    
18. Got response to 2nd SAR request which clearly shows account sold to Experto in Oct 2009.
    

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The letters from Experto say they are appointed by Varde to collect any and all amounts outstanding. Therefore they are not extending the facility to me that MBNA did (in other words they are not continuing to support the account).

 

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The SAR says the account was Sold to Experto. Experto say they have bought the account, including the balance. MBNA's letter (written by Experto) says the balance has been assigned to Experto.

 

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Experto bought the account in mid October 2009, so the 6 month "return period" is now over.

 

_____________________________

 

 

Therefore if I've read your response correctly - a letter to MBNA saying "I accept your termination of the account following its sale to Experto/Varde in October and the DN issued by yourselves in Jan 10" would be appropriate?

 

If this is the case, what is the best response to Experto? "You've bought an account which was terminated unlawfully?"

 

Thanks in advance for your help

 

SP

[Guest HeftyHippo]

your scenario seems pretty standard viz a vie experto's 'purchase'. In my case, Experto said Varde had bought the interest, and they acted for Varde, whilst MBNA said they sold it to Experto. Experto also referred to MBNA as their client...... confused? is it any wonder out economy is in such a mess? would a car company who couldn't work out if its products should have 4 wheels like the design said, or 5 according to marketing get such financial help from the Government? No, such incompetence would be allowed to go bust and thus end the incompetence, but here we have 2 institutions that can't even agree what happened and what the agreement they had actually was?

 

It is possible that your debt was sold back to MBNA, just to confuse things.....

 

Ok, what to do?

 

first decide what your objectives are - to decide who owns the debt? Then what? Fight it on terms of validity? Procedures? Make token payments?

 

What you do is decided on your objectives.

 

What I would do, and I don't think it harms you is to write to a top honcho at MBNA and ask for a definitive answer.

 

You can say quite honestly you are confused because Experto say Varde own the interest, MBNA say Experto own the debt. How can you deal with the problem when there is confusion.

 

Ask for clarification on who bought the debt from MBNA - Experto or Varde (my guess is experto), when, and the balance.

 

You can say that you believe that MBNA have sold the debt as they said, but are unclear as to who it was sold to. You can then also say that under the circumstances you have no alternative but to accept that the relationship and agreement between you and MBNA has ended, and you accept it, but need to clarify the owner.

 

That accepts the repudiation, and gets you information about ownership and puts you in control. Play dumb until it suits you - once a head honcho says things, it will be different for them to persuade anyone that a clerical error lead to him being given the wrong info. No need to say anything technical or legal until you have the info. As for experto. Get the info first. Decide what your legal position is, then decide what to do. I haven't heard anything from Experto since January. When they do surface I will be telling them that MBNA repudiated which I accepted as soon as I could establish the facts for certain via their head honcho, and that they should recalculate the amount owing. Once they admit that, and do it, I will hit them with something else.

 

 

Head honchos:

 

Ms Gail Powell

Vice President

MBNA Europe Bank Ltd

PO Box 1004

Chester Business Park

Chester

CH4 9WW

 

Ms Alyson E Mulholland

Company Secretary

 

 

 

BARNES, ANNETTE MARIE

 

GREENE, MICHELE SYLVIA

LAMANTIA, ROBERT WILLIAM (only Director's position)

O'DOHERTY, IAN JOHN SULLIVAN

 

Personally, I think these things can come under the role of Company Secretary, so you could write to her. RW Lamantia is also a good bet because he only has one Director position, suggesting he is at MBNA full time (Ms Greene has 21 appointments, so how long she is at MBNA is anyone's guess)

 

Or you could cover options, and write to the Sec, Lamantia, and maybe a busy director like Ms Greene. I am sure the latter has a PA who will forward your letter to the approriate person who will give you a knowledgeable response. You could write to several...

 

Tactics? Well, don't appear too knowledgeable. If they think youre just a dumb prat they'll spell it out to you.(which makes it hard to explain as a mistake later on)

 

You could head your letter 'complaint' but that may mean it gets filtered to the complaints dept, so maybe better to include the words "I wish to complain therefore... " a few lines down. Its clear its a complaint, but wont easily get filtered.

 

You could 'complain' about anything you like - that they made a mistake in telling you they sold it to Experto on xx/xx when in fact they sold it to Varde. That they appointed Experto to act for them but told you they sold the debt..... ANYTHING that forces them to state the exact position. Make an assertion, then invite them to confirm it in advance of a complaint to the FoS and other relevant bodies. If you ask them to confirm or deny, they have to otherwise they give you grounds for complaint. My guess is that they will quite gladly explain the facts to you, and won't be so slow to do it.

 

Why bother? Well, between them, MBNA and Experto have managed to completely contradict each other. What you don't want is for them to say to a judge later on, that although they were incompetent, miscommunciated, and got the paperwork completely wrong, which was caused by them never having sold off so many accounts in one go, it doesn't mean that they lost any rights. Because they wrongly told you they had closed the account, but never actually did, they didn't repudiate and the debt still stands as it was.

 

maybe I'm too cautious, but they got everything wronf, maybe it wouldnt be too hard to convince a judge theyre just stupid, but being stupid doesnt prevent them collecting on the debt.

[Stagparty]

I took an MBNA card back in 2007. It was an electronic application. When I activated the card I was sold PPI, although no mention was made of the potential problem of me being self employed (even though it was clearly stated on the application as I have the print out as a result of asking for a SAR) and also the potential problem of pre existing medical conditions.

 

I don't recall ever getting a copy of the insurance T's & C's.

 

Approx 18 months later MBNA decided to increase the APR on my card by about 15%! So I called them to cancel the PPI. During that call I was offered other, cheaper policies which would better suit me. I declined the offer, cancelled the PPI and effectively ended the card by choosing not to accept the APR increase.

 

I have since experienced financial hardship and MBNA have since sold my account to Experto (although I am yet to receive this in writing from MBNA) and then MBNA sent me a Default Notice about 3 months later! Therefore they clearly unlawfully rescinded the agreement.

 

I'd be really grateful if someone could help by answering the following questions:-

 

1. On the face of it, do I have a case for claiming the PPI was missold?

2. Does me cancelling the insurance have any bearing on it?

3. Does being offered other cheaper insurances affect it?

4. How does the account being sold to Experto affect it?

 

Thanks very much for your help!

 

SP

[Stagparty]

I forgot to add in the above, when I got the SAR back from MBNA I requested transcripts of the telephone conversations for the sale and cancellation but was told they only keep the calls for a fairly short length of time and so they weren't available.

 

Does this matter at all?

 

Thanks again everyone in advance of your help!

 

SP

[Stagparty]

Could someone please give me some help about this? It really would be most appreciated!

[moose73]

Send your prelim letter now, asking for the PPI part back. Use the letters in the templates on here. Believe it or not, MBNA seem to be better than others at refunding mis sold PPI! probably due to the trouble they have been in already.

I was in a similar position to you, and MBNA refunded without much argument really. They did send me the cheques and not the DCA.

Bear in mind it will take quite along time. I had 2 with MBNA which I started in Jan 2010. One has jst been settled in full, the other is still ongoing.

[Stagparty]

OK - I wrote to MBNA and included the magic words "formal complaint".

 

I have now had their final answer that the account was sold to Experto last year. They have not spotted that the DN wasn't issued until this year.

 

I have been making regular token payments to MBNA but my letters have stated that the payment is to be set against any lawful and genuine arrears so I think I have protected myself from a claim that the agreement has endured as prior to the termination the letter just said "here is this months token payment".

 

It transpired MBNA haven't actually read the letters and have just sent the payment to Experto.

 

So am I right in thinking I now write to MBNA and accept the unlawful termination of contract on the basis that a DN wasnt issued until months after the account had been sold and terminated?

 

Also I guess I need to write to Experto - has anyone any suggestions as to what to put in this letter, it's not a situation I have experienced before so any guidance for wording would be appreciated.

 

Thanks everyone

SP

[Guest HeftyHippo]

no need for special language you just haveto make it clear that you accept what they have done.

 

"with reference your letter informing me that you closed the account on XX/XX/XXXX, I write to inform you that I accept the closure and now regard our relationship as ended."

 

Don't let on why, or your reasons, just make it clear that as far as you are concerned, its over between you. Put a bit in that your letter should be passed to whoever appropriate.

 

Send it recorded.

 

As for Experto? Let them wait. Let them come to you, expend some energy and money etc and wait for MBNA to get your letter, record it, circulate it, etc.

 

In a month or two, if you feel like it then you can tackle Experto.