Pmw1971 vs Amex

[the_shadow]

Right I'm going to send the letter below to see what Amex say.. any advice???... I'm not sure whether I'm giving too much away by stating about CCA and Subject Access Request request in the letter but I'd like a stick to beat them over the head with

Dear Sir/Madam,

 

On the 6th Jan I received a letter from yourselves stating that both the APR and minimum payment would increase. The APR was increased from 9.9% to 14.9% for general purchases whilst I assume the balance transfer rate would remain at the 9.9% for the lifetime of the balance. Alongside this the minimum payment was increased from 2.5% to 5%.

 

Realising I couldn’t make the 5% minimum payment proposed I rang the American Express call centre on 8th Jan to speak to an advisor and see what options were open to me. The call centre operative was unsure of what they could do to help and spoke to her supervisor who suggested I leave it until I had missed minimum payments for 2-3 months and then phone back when they could pass me to the “financial difficulty” section.

 

To be honest, this approach is not acceptable, I would rather be proactive in getting this sorted than reactive and receive both late charges and possibly default notices on my credit file.

 

I would like to respectfully ask for the following to happen:-

 

 

• that the minimum payment be frozen at the current payment amount (for avoidance of doubt that is £151.00 this calendar month) until the debt is fully paid.
  
• that the card is closed and no further charging be able to be made to this account.
  
• that the interest is frozen on this account to allow the capital amount to be paid off in a realistic timeframe.
  

 

If these terms are not acceptable then I fear the only course of action to me would be to contact the CCCS and begin a Debt management plan where I’m sure your aware the payments are pro-rata’d and having already filled out an SOA from their website I can advise as only the 3rd largest creditor amountwise you will be receiving less than the amount I’m offering above.

 

I would also seek to see copies of the Credit Agreement under 78(1) of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 and a full documented history of this account via Data Protection rights to see if illegal charges have been applied or PPI applied correctly.

 

Yours faithfully.

 

 

Any help would be most gratefully received.

[Monty2007]

Hi pmw

What you have to realise is that Amex are a completely unreasonable company and any perception that you may have of them agreeing to your pro-active suggestions should be dismissed forthwith. I requested the same back in 2005 and was defaulted after 2 missed payments; you then get passed to a DCA. It is very quick.

 

They will claim that any "introductory offer" that you had was subject to keeping payments up to date, hence now you have (allegedly) breached them they will charge you massive rates of interest. This is of course totally unreasonable, but we are dealing with Amex.

 

Could I ask when you opened the account - also please confirm that it is a credit card and not a charge card

 

You will be able to request your agreement but you will get either (i) a copy of your application form or a copy of a set of terms and conditions or (ii) an agreement that looks like the one you would have signed at the time you opened your account (or both). This will conform to S78(1) of the CCA. You need to then decide or probe further in terms of its enforceability. Amex is likely to litigate after you have been passed around a few DCA's.

 

There are now numerous Amex threads so I suggest that you do read most if not all of them and you will quickly see their limited "box of tricks" in practice. They are aggressive and unreasonable so you need to respond accordingly.

[the_shadow]

Hi pmw

What you have to realise is that Amex are a completely unreasonable company and any perception that you may have of them agreeing to your pro-active suggestions should be dismissed forthwith. I requested the same back in 2005 and was defaulted after 2 missed payments; you then get passed to a DCA. It is very quick.

 

They will claim that any "introductory offer" that you had was subject to keeping payments up to date, hence now you have (allegedly) breached them they will charge you massive rates of interest. This is of course totally unreasonable, but we are dealing with Amex.

 

Could I ask when you opened the account - also please confirm that it is a credit card and not a charge card

 

You will be able to request your agreement but you will get either (i) a copy of your application form or a copy of a set of terms and conditions or (ii) an agreement that looks like the one you would have signed at the time you opened your account (or both). This will conform to S78(1) of the CCA. You need to then decide or probe further in terms of its enforceability. Amex is likely to litigate after you have been passed around a few DCA's.

 

There are now numerous Amex threads so I suggest that you do read most if not all of them and you will quickly see their limited "box of tricks" in practice. They are aggressive and unreasonable so you need to respond accordingly.

 

hi Monty2007 I can see what your saying and have read a few of the other threads.. however I feel it may strengthen my case in the future if the courts/whoever can see that I've done my best to try and resolve the issue.... so I'll send and just wait and see.

 

I applied in Feb 2006 according to my credit file with Experian and it is the Amex Platinum card. I have a charge card with Amex also but thats through my company and I'm hoping that will be kept seperate. I think I applied online so will be interesting to see what comes back as the CCA form.

 

Pmw1971

[banker_rhymes_with]

Hello pmw1971!

 

I agree with everything Monty2007 has said.

 

I applied in Feb 2006 according to my credit file with Experian and it is the Amex Platinum card. I have a charge card with Amex also but thats through my company and I'm hoping that will be kept separate. I think I applied on-line so will be interesting to see what comes back as the CCA form.

 

If you can, I'd try to scale back everything that you are doing with Amex, in case the Business Amex Charge Card is currently a critical tool. Move away from it ASAP by getting another Card elsewhere.

 

If you have a bun fight with Amex over the Credit Card, I doubt they will waste much time pulling the Business Charge Card in retaliation. It could be a Charge Card Monthly Limit Cut, or complete closure.

 

IOW, don't get caught out.

 

Just writing to them will alert them to examine ways to get rid of you as a Customer. They seem to be dumping accounts like mad at the moment, suggesting they are in as much trouble as many other banks (if not more so).

 

My advice is to try and buy yourself some time if you can. i.e. see if you can stretch to find the Credit Card monthly Payments for 3 Months while you re-organise things to try and make sure Amex does not form a key part of your Business and/or Income Generation.

 

If it were me, I'd probably remove the s78(1) CCA Request and Subject Access Request from the above letter, because that will only alert them that you are highly likely to fight them fairly soon. Their thinking being that if you know about such things, then you are planning to fight them anyway.

 

Both issues are your Statutory Rights, but Amex will simply log you as a dead end from that point and will not do anything to help you stay with them. Indeed, they will seek to get rid of you ASAP. That could be to cancel the Charge Card, and ramp up your Interest Rates on the Credit Card to Hoover in as much as they can get from you until you either start fighting them, or until they have inflated the alleged Debt to increase their paper Tax Write Off, or a combination of all.

 

I think you are very wise to draft your letters with a later Court battle in mind. Indeed, that's what I would've recommended anyway had you not mentioned this.

 

Right now, I think you must resign yourself that you and Amex are about to part ways. The key is to make sure you do so on your terms and not on theirs.

 

The Charge Card is probably a dead end in terms of fighting them, as most Charge Cards are not covered by the Consumer Credit Act 1974. Some are, but you'd need to check your Terms very carefully. Look for things that allow you on-going or running Credit, such as Flex Accounts or Cash Advance facilities etc. But assuming the Charge Card is a hard one to fight, the best advice is to scale it down and move the use of that over to something else. Get another Charge Card or arrange an Overdraft and use a Debt Card instead etc. Anything but stay with Amex, because they will probably pull the Card when you are trying to book into an Hotel 400 miles from home and find your Amex Charge Card has been pulled leaving you with a problem (and no accommodation)!

 

The Credit Card won't be all plain sailing, as it sounds like you applied for that on-line. From around 2004 onwards, a mouse click/tick-box was acceptable to execute an Agreement on your part, so you are likely to be more at the mercy of Amex than if, say, the alleged Agreement was based upon a Written Agreement.

 

Anything Electronic can, potentially, be re-created!

 

But the alleged Agreement should be covered by the Consumer Credit Act 1974 and not the Consumer Credit Act 2006. The latter came into force 06/04/2007, so if you did apply for the Credit Card in Feb 2006, then the alleged Agreement should still be covered by the 1974 Act...so things like s127(3) still apply (see the 1974 Act). That means that if any of the Prescribed Terms were missing, a Court cannot enforce.

 

However, the danger is the alleged Agreement was probably Electronic, so I regret that does leave a lot of room for Amex to produce a perfect Agreement. They'd still have to prove it, but it's a lot easier for them than having to present a Written Agreement.

 

Amex tend not to be able to produce Written Agreements, either through stupidity or perhaps because the Original wasn't as enforceable as they would like (I'll let people guess which).

 

Sorry this is not great news, but it may at least warn you how to handle what could soon develop into a problem for you.

 

Cheers,

BRW

[the_shadow]

Just writing to them will alert them to examine ways to get rid of you as a Customer. They seem to be dumping accounts like mad at the moment, suggesting they are in as much trouble as many other banks (if not more so).

 

Thanks BRW

 

I'd already decided to take it out of the initial letter but was planning to send both the s78 request plus a Subject Access Request, After your advice I think I'll stall on them.. I'm not confident that the s78 will show anything but I was hoping that the Subject Access Request would show illegal charges on the account which would poss allow a defence against action if I get the papers in first?

 

I've stopped using Amex completely I just cant afford the repayments from mar 31st onwards so I've got a little time to try and arrange something.

 

Again thanks for the advice, its good to know I'm not the only one fighting the big american bully boys

[banker_rhymes_with]

Hello pmw1971!

 

You left a word out...

 

I'm not the only one fighting the big american stupid bully boys

 

I think Amex are peering over the edge of the toilet bowl at the moment, and know they are close to being flushed away.

 

That would explain their blind aggression and desperation to push their luck with everyone regardless of the weakness of their case.

 

They think aggression is a substitute for having a strong case.

 

But, given the above, don't fight them where they do have a strong case, so dump the Charge Card ASAP.

 

The Credit Card may be different, because it should be covered by the 1974 Act, which can make a difference.

 

Also, if they get really shirty and go for Cancellation/Termination on the Credit Card, there is always the chance that they may make a mess of that. Although given the number of cases they are now fighting where they have indeed cocked that up, I would think they may be trying harder now to get that aspect right.

 

But, when you factor in the stupid element, you never know!

 

Cheers,

BRW

[the_shadow]

Hello pmw1971!

 

You left a word out...

 

 

 

I think Amex are peering over the edge of the toilet bowl at the moment, and know they are close to being flushed away.

 

That would explain their blind aggression and desperation to push their luck with everyone regardless of the weakness of their case.

 

They think aggression is a substitute for having a strong case.

 

But, given the above, don't fight them where they do have a strong case, so dump the Charge Card ASAP.

 

The Credit Card may be different, because it should be covered by the 1974 Act, which can make a difference.

 

Also, if they get really shirty and go for Cancellation/Termination on the Credit Card, there is always the chance that they may make a mess of that. Although given the number of cases they are now fighting where they have indeed cocked that up, I would think they may be trying harder now to get that aspect right.

 

But, when you factor in the stupid element, you never know!

 

Cheers,

BRW

 

Yep I'm hoping they make an error somewhere, I've changed a couple of words in the letter to indicate they can negotiate a deal but I'm not hopeful after reading some of the threads on here.

[the_shadow]

Well peeps... you were right. I've had no response yet and its been 22 days as of tomorrow....

 

so... next is to resend the original letter again tomorrow and alongside it I'm sending a CCA request and a SAR request... probably pointless but I feel better knowing I'm going to keep some pleb busy pulling my records

 

Little victory

[the_shadow]

Well no response to the docs yet but its early days

 

Anyway today in the post I received a new card to sign and use as the old one is expiring soon...... not that I'll sign or register it:|

 

 

Looked at the small print on the back for the attached letter/t&c's and it still mentions repayments at 2.5% and not the 5% mentioned in the letter dated Jan so which takes precedent?

 

Suspect its the letter that states from Mar 1st the repayments will be 5% but very confusing

[the_shadow]

Well today brings a letter in regards my re-sent financial hardships letter... sending by recorded delivery appears to have prompted them into action:)

 

Dear Mr Pmw1971

 

I am writing in reference to your recent letter dated 19th Jan 09 where you informed American Express of your current financial circumstances.

 

We are currently conducting a thorough review of your request and will endeavour to contact you within 14days with an update.

 

Thank you for your patience

 

Lxxxx Cxxxx

Head of Credit Relations

 

Chances of this being genuine?

[Monty2007]

Well today brings a letter in regards my re-sent financial hardships letter... sending by recorded delivery appears to have prompted them into action:)

 

 

 

Chances of this being genuine?

 

They may pass you to RMA or default you. It is very unlikely that they will be as helpful as you will need them to be. You will need a "B" plan.

[the_shadow]

They may pass you to RMA or default you. It is very unlikely that they will be as helpful as you will need them to be. You will need a "B" plan.

 

How quickly can they pass on my account?

 

I've not missed a payment yet... the increase is due to come in on Mar 1st so I'm expecting the next statement to demand the 5% repayment which I cant make, I'll continue making the 2.5% that I can *just* afford until either my situation changes for the worst or they stop me paying it.

[banker_rhymes_with]

Hello pmw1971!

 

Be careful what you say to them, as they'll only bring it up later to use against you.

 

They have no morals, so draft every letter and read it back to yourself and imagine if any part of it could be plucked out and quoted.

 

Give them anything, and they will use it against you.

 

Cheers,

BRW

[the_shadow]

Hello pmw1971!

 

Be careful what you say to them, as they'll only bring it up later to use against you.

 

They have no morals, so draft every letter and read it back to yourself and imagine if any part of it could be plucked out and quoted.

 

Give them anything, and they will use it against you.

 

Cheers,

BRW

 

Thanks BRW... advice Noted.

[the_shadow]

So another day and another american express dollar spent

 

Arrived home to find a nice large brown a4 envelope waiting for me... contained within is one letter from amex, one first page of an agreement, 13 pages of one set of t&c's followed by 5 different t&c's and one internal American express private email that seems to have slipped into my CCA request bundle:eek:

 

Right... to the nitty gritty.. I remember signing this doc... in fact I have the original unprinted/signed in my email system... but why have they only sent me the first page of it, and thats the one without the signature? when the copy I have in my inbox is 4 pages long?

 

Not sure if it matters but the t&c copy agreement that came with the application I printed off and signed isnt the same version as any of the 5 copies they've sent me also.

 

Docs:

Edited April 6, 2009 by pmw1971

[the_shadow]

Well surprise surprise.. a letter from amex saying they havent made a decision yet and will keep me waiting for another 14 days

 

amex letter

 

So call me cynical but I think there are a few of possibilities :-

 

a) Amex are such a caring company they are looking deeply into my financial wellbeing and seeing where directly they can help.

 

b) Amex are stalling me to see if I can actually make the next payment which will be at 5% minimum

 

c) Amex are stalling me to ensure I continue paying after CCA and SAR were sent.

 

Personally I think its B)

 

Well since I made the original offer my wife has lost her job so even if they do reply in the positive I think I'm going to have to withdraw it and offer Pro-Rata payments:-(

[the_shadow]

Ok got some interesting stuff in my SAR today, two application forms...

 

Now I applied online in Feb 2006, I know they sent me an Express application to sign and post back which I did, the front page of that they sent to me as my CCA response. the second page contains the signature but nowhere in the document is a Your right to cancel box. It is in text format but its not directly next to or above the signature box which I believe it had to according to the CCA regs...

 

All pretty academic as this is governed by the online applications regs I take it... although they've not sent me anything showing any web printouts or ip addresses or anything confirming its been raised online.

 

Strange

[the_shadow]

Its nice to feel your not just a name or number with a company....

 

Sent off my letter on Friday withdrawing my offer of payment terms and letting them know I'd be making pro-rata payments from next month...

 

Got two letters from amex, one a customer complaint letter saying we're sorry your not happy and blah blah blah...

 

The other one is below....

 

 

 

 

What makes you think they rushed this out:D:D:D

 

Will have no effect tho, pro-rata payments are all ready calculated and they are getting half of what I offered initially to them... tough luck amex.

Edited April 6, 2009 by pmw1971

[davey77]

Nice, in that you got them to cave in. Feeling left out now as i haven't had a reply yet to my last latter to them.

[the_shadow]

Nice, in that you got them to cave in. Feeling left out now as i haven't had a reply yet to my last latter to them.

 

 

Shame I cant afford it now... they obviously received my letter saying they'd not responded and the offer was withdrawn and then sent a template letter out... Mr Sample:) lovely personal touch.

 

Did you send a pic of the card burning to them?

[davey77]

Oh really. i thought you had added the 'Mr sample' with photobucket.

 

I haven't sent the pic yet. Will do. Need a reply first to find out their stance, then will start demanding loads of cash from them etc.

I'm saving the amex burning pic for a fairwell gift. (They gave me a nice leather bag after all.)

Edited March 11, 2009 by davey77
spelling

[the_shadow]

Oh really. i thought you had added the 'Mr sample' with photobucket.

 

I haven't sent the pic yet. Will do. Need a reply first to find out their stance, then will start demanding loads of cash from them etc.

I'm saving the amex burning pic for a fairwell gift. (They gave me a nice leather bad after all.)

 

think the only thing that hurries them along answering to mail is the threat of less/no money being paid. All my correspondence from them prior to this letter was professional and in properly addressed envelopes... This one came in a handwritten envelope with the obvious template notations found in it

[davey77]

Which is why i haven't heard back probably as i paid the last payment due (before i received the application form agreement). Have no intention of paying further.. perhaps that will get me noticed eh!

 

You do have to worry about their state of mind and workload (NOT) when the envelopes suddenly look hand written and scribbled in a rush. Deadlines perhaps or just a lack of knowledge at joiner level that they have no idea how to write a proper letter.

[the_shadow]

Looks like Amex had the crayons out yesterday and started to write some letters.....

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thoughts please.... I have penned a letter back but have no intention of hurrying to send, I've told them how much I can afford, I've sent them an I&E with total debt owed and worked out the pro-rata payments across my creditors.

 

I specifically like the bit about the internal process for issuing a default... so why should I bother applying then? Oh and the forms I'm to fill out fill three sides of A4... only thing they are not asking for is blood type and my wifes vital statistics!

 

PmW

Edited April 6, 2009 by pmw1971

[davey77]

In my view you have done everything normally required to supply them with information as to your financial health. An I&E sheet is perfectly satisfactory. I'm sure if you rang the National Debtline they would confirm the extra info Amex want is not needed to assess your ability to pay.

 

The main goal of a Creditor (or DCA) is to obtain payment. The secondary goal is to obtain as much information about you as possible (whether it's relevant or not.)

 

"..you are expected to reduce and eliminate any luxury expenditure."

 

And who are they to decide what is, or is not, a 'luxury'. Again, i believe when i called the national debtline they stated i was entitled to reasonable extras and not expected to live on a subsistence level just to suit a money hungry creditor.