Hsbc Debts

[cerberusalert]

Because if they cannot produce a copy of it or if they do produce one that's not exactly like yours they cannot take enforcement action.

[julian1968]

So in my mind, the fact that the bank now know I have my original agreement and will not give them a copy put them in a weaker position. Cant produce copy, wont run risk of going to court as mentioned earlier and producing an agreement that isnt the same as mine

 

Thanks again

[julian1968]

Hello again all

 

I have today received a letter from DG Solicitors (photobucket)

 

http://i550.photobucket.com/albums/ii434/urbancolour/Bank%20Claims/HSBC%20Credit%20Card%20CCA/DGSOLS24AUG10A.jpg

 

It seems DG just dont bother to read the letters they receive. They ramble on about my asking for a copy of the original signed agreement ans that they have done all they need to under Section 78. The letter I sent to them dated is clear (at least to me) They have asked for my copy of the agreement (it does not have prescribed terms) I tell them I will not give them sight of this, I also ask them to confirm if they have my original agreement or not (I dont think they have)

 

I also note that DG's letter does not say they will push to collect this debt, rather that they will continue to report to credit ref agencies.

 

Can someone clarify what they mean in paragraph 4, where they will be obliged to put me to strict proof?

 

This seems to be a stand off, for now at least. I would like suggestions as to my next possible step. Could I reply in writing making, once again, very clear my position and the fact that they should not be making entries to credit file, Could I consider the court process?

 

Thanks again for your help

[julian1968]

I have also put together a letter that may be sent, depending on your advice.

 

I used some of Cerberusalert's help with the contents of the same (Thanks again)

 

Please feel free to comment on changes etc.

 

With reference your letter dated 18 August 2010, the contents of which have been noted.

 

I feel there may be crossed wires between both parties, and I once again will attempt to clarify my position.

 

My last letter to your office, dated 19 July did not request that you send my an original copy of my agreement for the above account.

 

Previous letters to your office have clearly stated that I hold my original agreement. Further, I have informed you that this agreement does not meet the requirements of a properly executed credit agreement under the 1974 Act.The document received does not contain any of the prescribed terms as set out in the Consumer Credit (Agreements) Regulations 1983 (SI 1983/1553) Schedule 6 Column 2.

 

Since this document does not contain the required prescribed terms it is rendered unenforceable by s127 (3) consumer Credit Act 1974

 

The absence of a properly executed credit agreement prevents you from:

1)Adding interest to the account

2)Taking any enforcement action on the account

3)Issuing any default notices or registering any default marker with a credit reference agency

This situation is backed by case law from the Lords of Appeal in Ordinary (House of Lords) the highest court in the land. Your attention is drawn to the authority of the House of Lords in Wilson-v- FCT [2003] All ER (D) 187 (Jul) which confirms that where a document does not contain the required terms under the Consumer Credit Act 1974 the agreement cannot be enforced.

 

Since the agreement is unenforceable it would be in everyone’s interest to consider the matter closed and for you to write the alleged debt off. I suggest you give serious consideration to this as any attempt of litigation will be vigorously defended and I will counter claim for all quantifiable damages

 

 

I look forward to your early response

[Guest HeftyHippo]

I would not have revealed that I had a copy of the agreement in the first place, and I would not be discussing its existence now. What matters is the banks failure to send you a copy of the agreement that complies with the CCA.

 

I'm a bit confused because in your first post, you mention they sent you your agreement as part of your SAR so I assume you didn't make a CCA request? But cerbers letter he says " you have sent this document in response to a formal request under Section 78 (1) of the Consumer Credit Act 1974, this statement is now binding on you as per section 172 of the Act." which would not seem to be the case. Unless they have failed to answer a CCA request, they are entitled to enforce the agreement.

 

In any case, turn the discussion back to them and away from what info you may or may not have. Stop answering questions about the info you have, and simply tell them they haven;t sent you a compliant agreement. It is their ability to produce the proper agreement that matters, not whatever you have. Don't let them see your agreement unless court proceedings start and a request to see it is made under Civil Procedure Rules . It is up to them to prove their case, so make them do it. As you have found, they answer the parts of your letter they want to and ignore everything else.

[julian1968]

Thanks Hippo and sorry for the delay in replying

 

I have since Jan 09 (when I first placed the account in dispute with HSBC) sent requests for true copy of agreement under S77/78 consumer credit act (they didnt reply) - Asked for true copies under pre action protocols of the civel procedure rules, again with no reply

 

They seem only willing (or able) to send copies of terms and conditions and a photocopy of a statement.

 

I am unsure of what next steps can be taken.

 

Thanks for your help again everyone

[julian1968]

Sorry to bump here guys, Should I just send a letter simply telling them they haven't sent a compliant agreement and so I consider the matter closed and then wait and see what their next move is?

 

Thanks

[julian1968]

Hello

 

I have been dealing with a matter against the HSBC in these forums for a long while now which seems to have come to an impass with neither myself or HSBC or their solicitors making a move. link to thread here

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?247754-Hsbc-Credit-Card-Cca-Is-This-Enforcable

 

Outline is that I disputed my credit card account on the basis that they did not hold a correctly completed and signed CCA. They have been unable to show this document after many attempts by myself to see the same.

 

Now it is my understanding that without a CCA the bank is unable to enter information re a default onto my credit files. However, they are doing so.

 

I have asked that the bank cease and take back these entries. Their stance is that they dont accept my dispute. Playing games I feel.

 

I am wondering now if I could take action in possibly the small claims court to force the entries to be deleted, this action may also bring to a head that the bank does not have the CCA for my account; as they would have to produce it at court, and so go towards finally resolving the matter of the credit card debt.

 

At this point, I am just looking at options and would like any advice please

 

Thanks

[huggys boss]

Not sure about this one, but will be watching to see what advice you get. There are a couple of defaults on my file where they cannot provide valid CCA's.

[the_shadow]

The ICO's standpoint is that if they can show that a financial relationship has taken place then as they see it the creditor is allowed to mark your file in default of repayments.

 

Also various recent test cases have allowed the creditors to mark your creditfile and not have that labelled as enforcement.

 

S.

[julian1968]

Its been a long while since my last post here (University, work etc) thanks for your replies

 

I have today been reading a little in these forums about the possibiltiy of going to small claims, are you saying this may be unsuitable action in my case

 

Thanks again

[dx100uk]

yep sadly yes

 

the FOS take the same stance as well.

 

 

dx

[julian1968]

Hello all

 

I have now an update on this matter. the file has been passed to Central Debt Recovery Unit (debt collectors) of Worthing, West Sussex

 

The letters state that there is amount due to their client (HSBC) and at first offered a 10%, now 20% reduction in the amount owed for full payment

 

I understand that while an account is in dispute (dispute letters sent as no credit agreement on file, but solicitors for HSBC reject my dispute as they sent photocopies of statement and generic terms and conditions) That while in dispute, a file cannot be passed to any collection agents, is this correct?

 

To my mind I should send letter to collection Co stating account in dispute, should not be with them and I refuse to acknowledge them in this matter or send or wish to receive any further letters.

 

It is interesting however to see the discounts be offered, does tis leave the door open to go to HSBC with my own full & final offer?

 

Thanks for the help wit this again everyone

[Old Cogger]

Bump

[Guest jsa12]

whats posted looks totally unenforceable,i would be very wary of what this group are sending out in some cases its neither accurate or true,does it link to any term and conditions these look to be nowhere in sight.

 

i stopped paying them,there's one thing worse then no agreement is one thats totally different which is what they are doing backed up by threats and one sided correspondence and ignoring dispute letters'.

 

there not not starting "their client" again too i hope.

[julian1968]

Thanks to you both for the replies

 

JSA, I didnt quite understand the last line, can you explain a little more please

 

Thanks

[the_shadow]

Thanks to you both for the replies

 

JSA, I didnt quite understand the last line, can you explain a little more please

 

Thanks

 

DG / Metropolitan and HSBC are all one in the same, different rooms on the same corridor so to speak.

 

S.

[julian1968]

Does this include the Central Debt Recovery people .. bless those little tinkers

[the_shadow]

Does this include the Central Debt Recovery people .. bless those little tinkers

 

I believe they are part of metropolitan so yes

 

S.

[julian1968]

Thanks for your help Shadow

 

So to clarify, do I just continue to ignore all letters regarding this now or send letter to state account in dispute.

 

I would like to end this matter with a full and final offer, and if I am being offered an opportunity (not enough discount right now) should I contact HSBC solicitors direct

 

Im in no rush however as they are adding info to my credit file stating late payments, so right now, whats the point, has the damage not already been done in terms of future credit etc.

[the_shadow]

Thanks for your help Shadow

 

So to clarify, do I just continue to ignore all letters regarding this now or send letter to state account in dispute.

 

I would like to end this matter with a full and final offer, and if I am being offered an opportunity (not enough discount right now) should I contact HSBC solicitors direct

 

Im in no rush however as they are adding info to my credit file stating late payments, so right now, whats the point, has the damage not already been done in terms of future credit etc.

 

Ok, I'm going to be a bit brutal here... but stick with me....

 

What are you hoping to achieve.... you consider the cca to be unenforceable and have stopped paying... did you really think HSBC were going to turn around and say "Shucks ok, we cant obtain judgment in court so you can get away with having spent our customers money and we'll do nothing more about it... thanks for taking that money and spending it and we hope you enjoyed whatever you used it for?"

 

HSBC have the right to mark your credit file for non-repayment and add interest and basically a lot of other things after Carey vs HSBC... the only thing they might struggle with is getting a court judgment without a signed agreement. All this has been clarified by the OFT in their guidance on s77/s78 request responses published last october.

 

As I've said they WILL affect your credit rating for 6 years now... however you might be able to negotiate a full and final with a DCA if they sell it at a lower rate than HSBC will accept and removal of the eventual default but I wouldnt get your hopes up.

 

I think the advice you were given back in and around post 6 was the best... just ignore them for now until they either go away, pass to the next dca or start getting more legal.

 

S.

[julian1968]

Thanks again for your reply Shadow

 

I'm not that comfortable with not paying back money that I spent. However after many letters to HSBC in the first instance, asking for CCA wanting to sort this out, and being ignored, and HSBC playing around over a miss sold Insurance issue.

 

HSBC started to enter info onto credit file rather than deal with the original issue (would have been much easier all round) So this really is just a stand off.

[the_shadow]

Thanks again for your reply Shadow

 

I'm not that comfortable with not paying back money that I spent. However after many letters to HSBC in the first instance, asking for CCA wanting to sort this out, and being ignored, and HSBC playing around over a miss sold Insurance issue.

 

CCA requests are being interpreted rightly or wrongly by the banks/creditors as debtors attempting to get out of credit agreements, unenforceable/enforceable agreements or not.

 

PPI issues are better imho dealt with by FOS after just a couple of letters to the creditors.

 

HSBC started to enter info onto credit file rather than deal with the original issue (would have been much easier all round) So this really is just a stand off.

 

 

Its their best weapon, they know how people love to protect their credit ratings.

 

S.

[julian1968]

I think I will wait to see what happens. My credit rating cant improve now and so I dont see the point of progressing it.

[Guest jsa12]

Thanks to you both for the replies

 

JSA, I didnt quite understand the last line, can you explain a little more please

 

Thanks

 

sorry,as as been mentioned metropolitan and the central debt recovery agency are all part of the HSBC and other posts comment they all people working under these names have hsbc email addresses.

 

metropolitan have a habit of referring to hsbc as their clients when in fact they are all one and in house,only recently there has been an admission in small print at the bottom that they and hsbc are all the same group.