Amex - what should I do next? Stay quiet or complain?

[Big Naughty]

Hi everyone, I am one of those anxious people who have been browsing for some while, but this is my first post. The site is great and the help offered to others has been a big inspiration to me in getting my own finances in order, I only wish I had found it a year ago like many others!

 

Firstly I will apologise for the long first post but it has been a long and extremely stressful journey so far and through the advice you all give others I have been able to get quite a long way without needing your direct help. So here goes with my story so far:

 

This time last year I was visiting family for the Christmas holiday when Amex incorrectly and without my permission took every last penny from my personal bank account including the overdraft to pay off my Platinum fee! (I have a number of Business and Personal Amex cards for various reasons, but this was my personal one) This obviously meant that while I was away nothing got paid from the account and all my creditors started phoning an empty house.

 

It wasn’t until I returned in January this year that I realized what had happened. I quickly tracked it down to Amex treating my card like a charge card not the Credit Card, and they admitted it was their mistake but would not put the money back into the bank account. My Platinum card has the Flex Select option on it so I know it is a Credit Card not just a Charge Card. What they agreed to do was put money onto my Flex side of the card to pay that off. To be honest I had so many phone conversations with them I lost track of what was owed in the end and why!

 

I continued to use the card after that no problem. In the course of time though, a mortgage application that I had was withdrawn because this mistake obviously affected my credit score. I checked with Experian and they confirmed that Amex’s mistake had indeed cost me valuable credit score points. I went down to “Extremely High Risk”.

 

When the February and March statements cam from Amex, there were still problems with money moving between the two sides of the Platinum card so they suggested cancelling the card and raising a new account. I did say I didn’t want to do that because they would credit check me and it would lead to further problems. They said it was the only way they could sort the account out so I went with it. I didn’t sign any agreements for the new card and I never used it. The nice Platinum welcome pack came through the post with the ‘free’ luggage tags (tat). Then came the joining fee. Of course I asked them to reimburse me that fee which they did.

 

Everything was going well until I had a letter from them in May saying they were reviewing my Platinum account because of my poor credit score which they had caused and wanted 3 months wage slips and 6 months bank statements which I duly signed and sent off. All normal procedure I thought! Any way, I wasn’t spending on either my Platinum or Gold cards so I thought I am just paying them off so nothing to worry about. How wrong I was!

 

Thirteen days later in May I got a letter from them saying they wouldn’t approve any further spending on any of my Amex cards because I was too much of a risk and to refrain from using any of them. All this time I was making the normal payments and keeping up to date. I did however miss a payment on my Gold Amex card while I was out of the country. It was only £50. For interest they couldn’t work out a direct debit on this card for some reason – ever, and because it was only £50 per month I didn’t worry about it.

 

May, June, July and August statement all came and went without any problems. Still not using the card so debts going down – excellent I thought. In the mean time I had been applying for mortgages again, and through that process I had been advised to contact the FOS to complain about Amex taking the money out of my bank account without my permission.

 

So I had been constructing the letter to FOS when on the 22nd of September the Platinum statement for my Amex card came in the post saying thanks for the direct debit payment and all that but “account now cancelled and has been assigned to our collections department. Please pay the balance shown (£8,000) immediately.

 

There was a number to call. Newmans! You can fill in the gaps. “Don’t worry”….”we will help you”…..”have you got any other credit cards you could put this debt on?” etc etc. Mr. B and Mr. S etc etc … call us back in a month and we will try to put a payment plan together. Like many other threads, this is when you start to think you are alone and panic. Because that’s what they want you to do. As it happens, I didn’t have £8,000 lying around. My circumstances had changed and I am where I am. I did however pay them £600 to stop calling me. When it got to threatening me with Bankruptcy I just laughed. I don’t have any assets you see. I called them back for fun after that!

 

On the 23rd of September (the next day) I had Cancellation Notices for both cards Platinum and Gold, informing me that my they had cancelled my accounts with immediate effect, and that all monies outstanding on the account are now payable in full.

 

I decided to stop paying them, because no agreement with Newmans, and never received default notices for either of the Platinum or Gold accounts (the Platinum had a 'flexi' account attached, so it came under the Consumer Credit Act 1974) as I mentioned before.

 

On the 24th of September (the next day) I had the Overdue Account letters from Newmans for both accounts. I still had no Default Notice.

 

At this point I called the FOS and told them what was going on. I made my complaint formally about the money being taken out of my account etc. They were very interested and wrote to Amex straight away.

 

Newmans contacted me (pestered me) again and wrote to me at the start of November stating I should contact hem as a matter of urgency. They offered me a payment plan. I said I couldn’t pay anything until the FOS had proceeded with the complaint and I had received a Final Response from Amex. They weren’t interested of course.

 

I did receive a letter from Amex on the 15th of November saying they were pleased to have the opportunity to deal with my complaint etc etc. I should get a response in 28 days.

 

I then received an Initial Response letter 2 days later on the 17th saying they thought my complaint was about the cancellation of my accounts and didn’t even mention the money being taken out of my account! I sent this letter along with another complaint form clearly completed stating the complaint was about monies being taken out of my account without my permission. They sent me the copy of the letter they sent Amex, which clearly outlined that the complaint was about the monies being taken out of my account.

 

I sent Amex a letter back clarifying all of this, and said I was dissatisfied with their response and felt a thorough investigation had not taken place. No one had even contacted me about it, and they still haven’t. It was in this letter that I asked them for CCA’s for both accounts. I sent 2 separate Postal Orders and the template from these threads. That was on the 21st of November.

 

Amex wrote back stating they received my letter and the CCAs on the 20th of November. Funny that – dates don’t match up!

 

Newmans continued to pester me even though they knew I was in dispute with the Platinum card. At the start of December I got the “you files have been held pending Copes Solicitors intervention”…”please contact us before 12 noon the following Monday” which was 12+2 days since sending the CCAs out funnily enough! I ignored them.

 

Eight days later I got the Court Proceedings letters form Newmans. They said I had 72 hours to pay up or else!

 

Now – if it wasn’t for all you good people in these threads and the great advice and support you give us, I would have been considering some strange and out of character behavior at this point involving large quantities of alcohol and drugs which would have shocked and upset my family. But due to you all, I remained calm and just ignored them.

 

So to bring you all up to date now and draw my first thread to an end and the questions I could really do with some help on, I received some interesting documents back on the 20th day after my CCA request. I also received a Final response on my FOS complaint which still doesn’t mention anything about the money being taken out of my account!

 

The documents they sent me are:

 

Platinum Card Personal Invitation application dated 21st March 2004

 

Platinum card Extended Payment Option (Flexselect) application dated 18th February 2005

 

Gold Card Application dated 16th May 2002

 

They also sent prints of various standard Ts & Cs for both cards without any signatures on.

 

So as you can see, it’s all a bit confusing. What should I do next is my first question?

 

I have stopped paying them, and I am sure the application forms they have sent me are not Agreements so are therefore unenforceable. Would anyone be able to just check them for me to confirm this please?

 

If that is the case, should I just drop the FOS complaint and walk away?

 

Is there a letter I should send them now saying I don’t recognize any alleged debts?

 

Thanks in advance.

 

 

http://i402.photobucket.com/albums/pp101/BigNaughty/AmexPlatinumapplication.jpg

 

http://i402.photobucket.com/albums/pp101/BigNaughty/AmexFlexselectapplication.jpg

 

http://i402.photobucket.com/albums/pp101/BigNaughty/AmexGoldapplication.jpg

 

 

If anyone knows who Allied or Allies International are please elt me know. They are calling about this now as well.

Edited December 31, 2008 by Big Naughty

[Big Naughty]

Hi there - I am not sure if this post is too long or not, but I can see that many of you are viewing. I am realy stuck with this now and I don't know what to do.

 

Could anyone with some Amex CCA knowledge please look at the attached documents and let me know if they are all in order or not. They seem to just be aplication forms but I know some of those are enforceable.

 

http://i402.photobucket.com/albums/pp101/BigNaughty/AmexGoldapplication.jpg

http://i402.photobucket.com/albums/pp101/BigNaughty/AmexPlatinumapplication.jpg

http://i402.photobucket.com/albums/pp101/BigNaughty/AmexFlexselectapplication.jpg

 

Thanks in advance.

[Desperate Daniella]

Hi Big Naughty,

 

Not certain if I can be of any help, but like you I filled in the 60-second application form though mine was in 2000. I have a thread going and so does intree, and Scabhunter and BRW have both been very helpful.

 

What is on the back of these applications/agreements they sent you? I'm trying to establish if what they have sent as being the back is accurate or not. Like my 60 second application form, yours is internally inconsistent - the Personal Info para on the front page refers to the paras overleaf. The Credit Agreement (which should have the word Card in it in any case) box just refers to the T&Cs being part of the agreement. Were they on a separate insert? in which case they are not included in the body of the agreement. Suggest you look at these threads which have much more very specific info from BRW/Scabhunter. If they did send you any backs can you scan them in and we can compare.

 

I haven't got a scanner so haven't been able to scan in my form yet, but I've seen somewhere else that these forms are supposed to have reference numbers at the bottom which mine don't although yours do.

 

Allied International Credit (AIC) are the nastiest bullies out there (or one set of them). They threaten you with everything: repossession, the lot. I was absolutely hysterical and suicidal after they contacted me and demanded almost £10,000 immediately. I offered about £800, all I could scrape together and they refused to take it and said it was the £10,000 or nothing. At that point I called CCCS who thankfully gave me a reference number. As soon as I gave them the number they backed off. Then several weeks later they rang up saying they would like to accept the £800. I told them it was too bad as I had paid something else. I also told them I had written to Amex for the CCA which arrived a few days later, and it is this that I am trying to work through at the moment.

 

You'll find a lot about AIC on CAG. It was a terrific comfort to me to know that I was not alone in being seriously frightened and that so many people have told them to sod off.

 

Good luck.

 

DD

[Big Naughty]

Thank you so much DD. I realy apreciate the reply.

 

There is absoultely nothing on the backs of the applications they sent me. I scanned exactly as they came through.

 

I will look at the threads you suggest. Thank you. Like you I have been through a range of emotions over this so many thanks for taking the time today to respond.

[Desperate Daniella]

Hi Big Naughty,

 

One of the things I have learned in the 3/4 weeks I have been on this site is that the card companies in so many cases are clearly lying through their teeth about what you/we actually signed up for. I have seen so many threads where any old terms and conditions are supplied, apparently on the back of the original agreements, and in the case of CapOne they have actually sent someone here a supposed back page of an agreement for the early 2000s which is actually dated 2008!!!!!

 

I'm very interested to hear that they are not sending you any apparent Terms and Conditions on the back of any of the three, and I have just noticed that the application dated 03/04 refers to the conditions on the back and front of the agreement, which is different to the other two.

 

I hope someone with more experience than me can give you better advice. I'm sure they will.

 

As you say, there are a lot of emotions here, and it's a real rollercoaster. Personally, I never thought I would be in this position, and I expect that goes for most of the other people here too.

 

DD

[Big Naughty]

Hi DD - they have sent me 2 separate documents dated November 2005 and December 2003 which say they are credit agreements, but neither has my name, address or signature on it. They just look like standard prints.

 

The December 2003 one is for the Gold Card and is apparently covered by the "Consumer Credit Act 1974"? No mention of Credit Card Agreement! Also the date on the application for the gold card is 2002?

 

If I then assume that the November 2005 'agreement' relates to the Platinum card, they have made another error I think because the application form they have sent me is dated March 2004. Even the FlexSelect application is prior to the agreement date!

 

So in summary, what they have sent me for both cards in terms of 'standard agreements' didn't cover the actual dates of application!

 

I am even more confused about what to do now. Should I keep quiet or carry on with my FOS complaint?

 

BN

[Monty2007]

Hi DD - they have sent me 2 separate documents dated November 2005 and December 2003 which say they are credit agreements, but neither has my name, address or signature on it. They just look like standard prints.

 

The December 2003 one is for the Gold Card and is apparently covered by the "Consumer Credit Act 1974"? No mention of Credit Card Agreement! Also the date on the application for the gold card is 2002?

 

If I then assume that the November 2005 'agreement' relates to the Platinum card, they have made another error I think because the application form they have sent me is dated March 2004. Even the FlexSelect application is prior to the agreement date!

 

So in summary, what they have sent me for both cards in terms of 'standard agreements' didn't cover the actual dates of application!

 

I am even more confused about what to do now. Should I keep quiet or carry on with my FOS complaint?

 

BN

 

Dear DD & BN

 

The FOS will not really get involved since this is a Civil contractual matter and they will almost certainly tell you that Amex have fulfilled their obligation to you. Your situation is the same as many others dealing with Amex. They have provided you with an application form in response to your S78(1) request which is pre-contractual and does not contain the prescribed terms, such applications do not conform in form or content to Section 60 (1) of the Act and as such are unenforceable under Section 127 (3) of the Act. You will be aware that the court cannot make an enforcement order unless Amex is able to produce documentation containing all the prescribed terms of the executed agreement(s). These are contained in the Consumer Credit (Agreements) Regulations 1983 (SI 1983/1553).

 

Assuming you are domiciled in England then you should draft a CPR31.16 request since it could be that they have additional documentation that they have not provided under your S78(1) request. They will have to supply this under the CPR request, see:

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/legal-issues/173201-why-you-shouldnt-use.html?highlight=CPR31.16

 

It is worth assuming that they will litigate since Amex have a more predictable process than other OC's. There are a few cases ahead of you so lots of information in CAG. Just keep at them.

[Big Naughty]

Thanks Monty2007 - the FOS complaint was in process before I sent the CCA requests. It is that complaint about them taking monies out of my account without my permission that I now don't know what to do about. I went into detail about that in the long start of my thread.

 

Thanks for the advice about the other section letter to send. I will have a look at that now.

 

Cheers BN

[Monty2007]

Thanks Monty2007 - the FOS complaint was in process before I sent the CCA requests. It is that complaint about them taking monies out of my account without my permission that I now don't know what to do about. I went into detail about that in the long start of my thread.

 

Thanks for the advice about the other section letter to send. I will have a look at that now.

 

Cheers BN

 

You may want to contact your bank and explain that Amex did not have authority to take the funds that they debited. The FOS may well have them refund it, so well worth a complaint.

 

Your thread mentions being defaulted so Amex or their DCA's will continue to pester and then litigate, hence the advice in getting full disclosure of what they have and what they will subsequently rely on it court (if they are daft enough to take it that far). Hence you should undertake a regular Subject Access Request on Amex and their DCA plus follow the CPR31.16 request.

[Big Naughty]

Thank you for that. I will get a template now for the SAR and send one off in the post.

 

I appreciate the help.

 

BN

[Big Naughty]

So - Subject Access Request Letter and 12+2 letter saying they have only sent me application forms in the post and unsigned Ts&Cs. Lets see what comes back.

 

I think this will keep the FOS door open for me as well. Amex haven't resonded to my complaint, and there are a few more days left before the given timescale expires.

 

I am not confident I understand the full implications of sending a CPR 31.16 yet. Some threads say if I threaten court action then it may rule out using the FOS again.

 

Any advice on this would be realy helpfull.

 

Thanks in advance.

 

BN

[banker_rhymes_with]

Hello BN!

 

You've had some good advice from Monty2007, so nothing for me to add to that.

 

If you can, rather than me re-type a lot of bumf that is already well presented elsewhere, I suggest you get reading all of the CAG Amex Threads.

 

There are many in the Amex Forum where your Thread lies, but do also look on the Debt Collection and Legal Issues Forums, as there are Amex Threads in there too.

 

Indeed, read as many other Threads as you can too, because the same issues apply to Amex as they do to MBNA, Capital One etc.

 

Pretty soon I think you will start to get a feel for this.

 

I would not get too excited by FOS, as they are quite pro-bank. However, they may well be in a position to ask Amex to refund the monies they took from your Bank Account, and may suggest that Amex delete any adverse Data in relation to that move.

 

If either of your Cards are Charge Cards only, then they are harder to deal with, as many Charge Cards are not covered by the Consumer Credit Act 1974.

 

Amex are not very good at keeping the Original copies of their alleged Agreements. Or, rather, are only too happy to have Scanned and Shredded them, because that removes any actual evidence of what they were really like.

 

If all they have are copies, apart from that giving them some issues in Court, it also means they can make up all sorts of stories about what would've been on the back page of these now shredded alleged Agreements!

 

How handy for them.

 

So, trust them not. Watch everything they do, and be prepared that they will go hostile on you faster than most bankers.

 

The Subject Access Request is key, so get that off ASAP...preferably before you say too much else to them. That's because you need to try and slip that Statutory Request in without a fuss to see what they send back.

 

Once they are alerted, they may take more care over what they send back in your S.A.R., so get it in ASAP to see if you can get the S.A.R. back sooner rather than later.

 

Once you have your S.A.R. response back, that'll give them less room to play with to invent documents that are compliant. After all, if it's not in your S.A.R. then why not? Coming up with something after S.A.R. will give them a problem explaining why it wasn't in your S.A.R.!

 

Hope this helps.

 

Cheers,

BRW

[Big Naughty]

Thanks BRW. I will wait now and see what comes back from the SAR.

 

I won't do anything about the FOS. Amex have clearly no intention of acknowledging there was any complaint. I will keep that one in my file for now.

 

Regards BN

[Big Naughty]

Ah! Letters from AIC Ltd turned up in the post for both accounts.

 

I had great pleasure in sending the Account In Dispute letter to them!

 

Clearly Newmans admitted defeat - come on!

 

BN