Fangio v's MBNA etc

[Fangio of the nineties]

Right, I CCa'd all odf them, the 12+2 has paassed, and i've not heard a dickie, other than the endless collection calls and a note from capone that my I+E form was "not adequate"... what is my next move ?

 

Is it now time for the account in dispute letter ?

 

FOTN

[silverfox1961]

Hi FOTN,

I'm hoping you sent all your CCA requests recorded delivery

 

There is a mixed view on what to do next. Some people say that the DCA now knows the A/C is in dispute and we shouldn't have to remind them but as you've had more demanding letters I'd send the A/C in dispute letter.

Just a side not. don't bother sending I+E forms. They have no right to them at all.

 

fox

[Fangio of the nineties]

Sadly i only have proof of posting.(good enough for the courts)...the attatched cheques have not yet been presented...I would intent to send the dispute letter recorded delivery though...

 

FOTN

[fedup74]

Have you got access to dispute letter?

[silverfox1961]

What's good for the courts do not nescessary mean good for the DCA. They can (and often do) say they never received the letter. Most DCA's have total contempt for the law unless it suits them.

Things you could do:

1) keep checking that the postal orders have been cashed.

2) send the A/C in dispute letter but I suspect they will write back saying they haven't a clue what you're on about.

3) write off the amount you have already spent and start again but this time send recorded delivery as then you will have proof that the letters have been delivered.

 

The golden rules when dealing with DCA's

Recorded delivery-every time

Never speak to them on the phone.

Never sign your letters-just print your name

Always ensure in CCA requests that you state that the £1 is the statutory fee and not to be used for any other purpose.

 

 

fox

[Fangio of the nineties]

Ta for that, i think i've seen a template letter but a link would be useful...I think that a rec delivery dispute letter is sufficient for now ... but is it worthwhile combining this wit a SARN request too ?

 

FOTN

[silverfox1961]

One SAR request:

 

Data Protection Act 1998

Subject Access Request

 

Dear Sir/Madam

 

ACCOUNT NUMBER: xxxxxxxxx (or multiple numbers if more than one account)

 

Please supply me with all data that you hold on me. This includes in particular, but is not limited to, the following:-

 

1. The original signed, executed credit agreement and any terms and conditions that applied to the account at the time of default and at the time the account was opened.

2. Transcriptions of all telephone conversations recorded and any notes made in relation to telephone conversations by your company, or by any previous creditor

3. Where there has been any event in my account history over this period which has required manual intervention by any person, I require disclosure of any indication or notes which have either caused or resulted in that manual intervention, or other evidence of that manual intervention in relation to my account formerly held with ORIGINAL CREDITOR.

4. True copies of any notice of assignment and/or default notice or enforcement notice that you or the original creditor sent me, with a copy of any proof of postage that you hold.

5. Documents relating to any insurance added to the account, including the insurance contract and terms and conditions, date it was added and deleted (if applicable).

6. Details of any collection charges added to the account; specifically, the date it was levied, the amount of the charge, a detailed financial breakdown of how the charge was calculated, and what the charge covers.

7. Specific details of the fees/charges levied by any other agency in respect of this account and a detailed breakdown of said fees/charges and what each charge relates to and on what date said fees/charges were levied.

8. A genuine copy of any notice of fair use of my data as required by the Data Protection Act 1998

9. A list of third party agencies to whom you have disclosed my personal data and a summary of the nature of the information you have disclosed.

10. Copies of statements for the entire duration of the credit agreement.

 

I enclose the statutory maximum fee of £10. You have 40 days in which to comply.

If there is specific information which you require in order to satisfy yourself as to my identity, please let me know by return. However, please note that the above address is the one which you normally use to communicate my private business to me and which you have hitherto found to be acceptable.

 

Yours faithfully,

 

 

print but don't sign your name

 

 

you send that to the OC not the DCA

 

fox

[fedup74]

Here you go- the dispute letter- just take off the bit about them signing for it and add that you have proof of postage. Does it say delivered on the royal mail track and trace? You don't necessarily have to have a sig. as long as it says it was delivered. You should send the SAR request if you want to see what charges they have added. Hope this helps:)

 

 

In Dispute

 

Ref:

 

Dear Sir/Madam

 

Thank you for your letters of xx/xx/xx and xx/xx/xx, the contents of which have been noted.

 

You have failed to respond to my legal request to supply me a true copy of the original Consumer Credit Agreement for the above account.

 

On the **DATE** I wrote to you requesting a copy of the credit agreement and other information under the Consumer Credit Act 1974 (Sections 77-79).

 

On **DATE** a member of your staff signed for delivery of my written request and I have an electronic proof of delivery showing their signature and the date.

 

To date you have failed to comply with these requests in any way, whether by confirmation of receipt of the request or by supplying the requested documents.

 

These documents I requested should be readily available as proof of your legal right to collect this account under the Consumer Credit Act 1974.

 

In my letter of the **DATE** I made a formal request for a copy of the signed, executed credit agreement for the above account under section 77(1) of the Consumer Credit Act 1974. In addition a full statement of this account should have been sent to me detailing all debits and credits to the account.

 

Furthermore, you are aware that the Consumer Credit Act allows 12 working days for a request for a true copy of a credit agreement to be carried out before your client enters into a default situation.

 

This limit has expired.

 

As you are no doubt aware section 77(6) states:

 

If the creditor fails to comply with Subsection (1)

 

(a) He is not entitled , while the default continues, to enforce the agreement.

 

And

 

(b) If the default continues for one month he commits an offence.

 

Therefore this account has become unenforceable at law.

 

You have failed to comply with a lawful request for a true, signed copy of the said agreement and other relevant documents mentioned in it, failed to send a full statement of the account and failed to provide any of the documentation requested.

 

Consequentially any legal action you pursue will be averred as both UNLAWFUL and VEXATIOUS.

 

Furthermore I shall counterclaim that any such action constitutes unlawful harassment.

 

Please note you may also consider this letter as a statutory notice under section 10 of the Data Protection Act to cease processing any data in relation to this account with immediate effect.

 

This means you must remove all information regarding this account from your own internal records and from my records with any credit reference agencies.

 

Should you refuse to comply, you must within 21 days provide me with a detailed breakdown of your reasoning behind continuing to process my data.

 

It is not sufficient to simply state that you have a ‘legal right’; You must outline your reasoning in this matter and state upon which legislation this reasoning depends.

 

Should you not respond within 14 days I expect that this means you agree to remove all such data.

 

Furthermore you should be aware that a creditor is not permitted to take ANY

Action against an account whilst it remains in dispute.

 

The lack of a credit agreement is a very clear dispute and as such the following applies.

 

* You may not demand any payment on the account, nor am I obliged to offer any payment to you.

* You may not add further interest or any charges to the account.

* You may not pass the account to a third party.

* You may not register any information in respect of the account with any credit reference agency.

* You may not issue a default notice related to the account.

 

I reserve the right to report your actions to any such regulatory authorities as I see fit.

You have 14 days from receiving this letter to contact me with your intentions to resolve this matter which is now a formal complaint.

 

I would appreciate your due diligence in this matter.

 

I look forward to hearing from you in writing.

 

Yours faithfully

[Fangio of the nineties]

 

 

 

Friends.... just recieved these back thru post...they are clearly application forms .. but

do they constitute a CCA ?

Are the enforceable ?

whats my next move ?

 

All opinions gratefully recieved...

 

FOTN

[silverfox1961]

morning,

sadly the images are far too small to see clearly.

can you use photobucket and upload them from there and we can then see them.

If you need help, just shout.

 

fox

[Fangio of the nineties]

photobucket ?

[silverfox1961]

Photobucket is a free site where you can upload pictures from your computer to their website and then paste a link onto your replies on the forum and it puts the picture up much larger so that the experts can look and say whether it's valid or not.

 

I stole this from fuzzybobble so all credit to him:

 

It seems tricky at first, but is fairly simple really.

 

1, Scan your DCA letter/whatever you want to show on the forum.

Ideal setting is 100dpi as it's closest to computer monitor display resolution.

 

2, Save the scanned image as a jpeg

Step 2.5 Edit out any personal information, barcodes or any other comments, notes or markings around the edge of the document. Never change the original document you received

2.5, Load the saved image into MS Paint. (comes free with Windows.) Use the pain brush or spray can to remove/paint over any personal info, such as name, account number, address, etc. Also remove any barcodes, as some DCAs may be able to identify you from these.

 

3, Create an account on Photobucket.

 

4, Once you have a Photobucket account, you'll find on the main webpage little box where you can upload photos. Click the "upload image" box and then tell it where on your hard disk you saved your scanned jpeg. It will then upload the image to Photobucket and it will show you thumbnails of the images you have uploaded. Under each image there are links that you can copy and paste.

 

5, Copy the IMG link below the image you want to put on the forum. Then reply to thread on CAG. Right click with the mouse and select "paste" from the little menu that pops up.

 

6, You'll then get some text appear in your message that looks a bit like this.

 

 

When you submit the reply, the text will change into the image you uploaded onto photobucket. The text you copied and pasted is just the information the forum needs, so it knows where to find your photo and display it in your message.

 

 

Courtesy of Fuzzybobble

------------------------------------

 

Give it a go

 

fox

[Fangio of the nineties]

Does this work ? doc 172 front and rear of mbna doc...374 same from all &leicester..

 

 

 

The point seems to hinge on the contents of Doc 3 it seems to me...and to whether these constitute the prescribed terms, It's pretty much the same stuff as in doc 1 and similar to many cca's i've seen on the site... this is where it deals with

 

interest

credit limit

and charges..

the balance of the t&c's (para's 4-19) are refferred to as in a sepasrate document.. but it seems to me that this is their attempt at including the prescribed terms within the application form..

 

any thoughts ?

 

Edited December 31, 2008 by Fangio of the nineties
clarity

[fedup74]

Hi FOTN:) Images 1 & 3 where the terms and conditions are- totally added on to that document- note that the T&Cs are legible- the rest of the doc is unreadable. They only have your application- no prescribed terms that can be related to your signature- totally unenforceable IMHO.

[Fangio of the nineties]

Thanks fedup, I bthink you may well be right.

docs 1 and 2 are front and rear of the same document (apparently)...as are 3& 4... certainly they seems to have been copied from the same sheet as a ghost of the front appears reversed on the rear ... on both..

 

however, in both cases the terms are on the back..I believe that they must be contained within the "4 corners of the agreement"..not neccesarily on the same page .. but between the start and the signature box... they are not .. so i think the agreement fails here..

 

also with the MBNA one.. the t &c's fail the legibility test.. thye copy they sent me is no better than the scan..

 

all the documents have slightly different "codfe numbers" on the f & R... the ones which start DPAL 04/03 001 etc...

not sure what this means.. but i would have expected either a code on the front or matching numbers...different numbers on the same document can only lead th confusion . it seems to me ...

 

anyone any thoughts ?

 

Still need to consider whether these docs actually contain the prescribed terms...

 

FOTN

[Fangio of the nineties]

Ah... Fedup i see what you're getting at.. sorry the t&c s are on the back.. what else you can see is the ghost of the image of the front that has been thru a copier..

[Falcokeith]

Just Subbing.

FOTN i think your right we are both after the same thing, not avoiding debts just getting them fairer and more manageable

[guzzleguts]

Hi fon

 

1& 3 WHAT A TOTAL PASTE UP IMO.

 

GG

[landy_alert]

Does this work ? doc 172 front and rear of mbna doc...374 same from all &leicester..

 

 

 

The point seems to hinge on the contents of Doc 3 it seems to me...and to whether these constitute the prescribed terms, It's pretty much the same stuff as in doc 1 and similar to many cca's i've seen on the site... this is where it deals with

 

interest

credit limit

and charges..

the balance of the t&c's (para's 4-19) are refferred to as in a sepasrate document.. but it seems to me that this is their attempt at including the prescribed terms within the application form..

 

any thoughts ?

 

 

Hi FOTN,

 

I was just wondering how you had decided to proceed with this as I have just come across your CCAs and noticed that your second one (A&L) is virtually identical to the one received in response to OH's MBNA CCA request.

 

The section pasted(?) onto the reverse is exactly the same and we had also had the same thought that the two sides were not originally part of the same doc. However other Caggers have told me that they think it is enforceable:eek:

 

I would be very interested to hear if you have had any further thoughts etc!

 

I have a thread with pics of OH's CCA in the MBNA forum.

 

Regards,

 

Landy x

[Fangio of the nineties]

I'm still trying to dispute the cca response, though they are ignoring that and continue with the letters and 'phone calls.

I was intending to write and ask them outright to confirm the following.

1. whether they still in fact held the original document, and if they did why it is not possible for them to send a legible and complete copy of it.

2. If they do not still hold the original document, how can they satisfy me that this is a true copy of it, bearing in mind that there seems to be nothing to show that the two pages are related to each other let alone the original..

 

havn't done it yet, but it's on my mind.. so far as i can see then their reply will be binding on them.. I suspect though that they'll refuse to co-operate and insist that they've sent all that they're required to... to my mind that will show me they are on a sticky wicket and have nothing that will stand up in court..

So far as i am aware, copies of cca are not enforceable .. they will need the original... If there is this much hassle in getting a copy of the original (rather than what is obviously a copy of a fiche or a copy of a copy) then i suspect that they're stuffed..

 

I'll keep you posted..

 

thanks for the interest... i've had a quick look at your thread, but i'm not really learned enough to offer you an opinion... other than from what i've seen the unconneced t&c's appear to fail the legibility test..

 

good luck

 

FOTN

[landy_alert]

Hi FOTN,

 

Thanks for having a look at my thread:D

 

Like yourself we were thinking of challenging them to prove that what they have is an exact, unaltered copy of the original and that the two sides of the document they have presented as one did originally start out that way. I've seen other Caggers' threads where they have contemplated asking to go in person to view the original, but as you say they are more than likely to wriggle out of letting you do that and I don't know if anyone has actually had any success with this. At the moment OH's account appears to have been assigned to a DCA who are threatening him with court etc, so we will probably have to do something sooner rather than later.

 

All the best - have subbed to this thread so will be able to follow your progress.

 

Regards,

 

Landy x

[Fangio of the nineties]

can't imagine that any of them will allow a visit for a personal inspection...and it seems to me that they only like going to court when they think their claim will not be defended.

 

If they really did have the original docs then i can't see why they wouldn't just say so, and produce a decent copy..

the fact that they don't do that suggests to me that they don't have their house in order and will have to rely on threats to succeed.

Just for a second... put yourself in their shoes... what would you do...

 

The only other explanation is that the dept chasing the dept don't actully know whether or not they do still hold the paperwork and are trying to bluff it out until another dept produces it ...or not..

 

we'll see... might be helpful to know from other caggers whether they can succeeed in court with only a "copy" document..

 

FOTN

[landy_alert]

can't imagine that any of them will allow a visit for a personal inspection...and it seems to me that they only like going to court when they think their claim will not be defended.

 

If they really did have the original docs then i can't see why they wouldn't just say so, and produce a decent copy..

the fact that they don't do that suggests to me that they don't have their house in order and will have to rely on threats to succeed.

Just for a second... put yourself in their shoes... what would you do...

 

The only other explanation is that the dept chasing the dept don't actully know whether or not they do still hold the paperwork and are trying to bluff it out until another dept produces it ...or not..

 

we'll see... might be helpful to know from other caggers whether they can succeeed in court with only a "copy" document..

 

FOTN

 

Yep, I know what you mean - you can just imagine hoards of Caggers turning up to MBNA towers to view their agreements - the staff would be so inundated they wouldn't have time for all those calls they love to make, lol:D