Agreements 'signed' online

[cosalt]

Hi guys, started a new thread for this as I can see it dragging on !

 

CCA'D MBNA for my wifes card, eventually today got back a copy.

 

It was taken out in Dec 2006 and is an agreement signed online by ticking a box ?

 

Are these agreements vaild ? What was the date the law changed ?

[cosalt]

Just to bump this up again, are these agreements valid ?

[rory32]

It was taken out in Dec 2006 and is an agreement signed online by ticking a box ?

 

Are these agreements vaild ? What was the date the law changed ?

On-line signatures are valid from the 31st of December 2004 under the Consumer Credit Act 1974 (Electronic Agreements) Order 2004.

[flyingdoc]

subscribing

[cosalt]

Great, thanks for that. So effectively any electronic agreement is enforceable, as they are very unlikely to send out a copy document thats incorrect I would have thought .

 

So presumably there is nothing we can do other than try and claim back charges ?

 

We can't afford to keep paying as they are charging 34.9 APR on a balance of C£10K.

 

Any suggestions appreciated ?

[rory32]

So effectively any electronic agreement is enforceable,

No. The agreement still has to contain all the prescribed terms and only on or after 31st December 2004 can an electronic signature be used as a subsistute for an actual signature.

[cosalt]

No. The agreement still has to contain all the prescribed terms and only on or after 31st December 2004 can an electronic signature be used as a subsistute for an actual signature.

 

Ok, surely as the document is printed straight from the pc they would not be stupid enough to send one out that is wrong, they could have ammended it as many times as they like without me ever knowing.

 

Out of interest, do they still have to sign the agreement ? There is no signature or box for them to tick on the the one they have sent us ?

 

Thanks

[cosalt]

No. The agreement still has to contain all the prescribed terms and only on or after 31st December 2004 can an electronic signature be used as a subsistute for an actual signature.

 

Ok, surely as the document is printed straight from the pc they would not be stupid enough to send one out that is wrong, they could have ammended it as many times as they like without me ever knowing.

 

Out of interest, do they still have to sign the agreement ? There is no signature or box for them to tick on the the one they have sent us ?

 

Thanks

[rory32]

surely as the document is printed straight from the pc they would not be stupid enough to send one out that is wrong

You would be suprised at how stupid some companies are in putting together agreements. If they tinker with the document then there is every possibility that they are committing an act of fraud. Most companies would not risk this.

[rory32]

Out of interest, do they still have to sign the agreement ?

Yes they do and if they haven't then the agreement would not be enforceable without a court order. However, if the copy of the agreement is signed by you and contains the prescribed terms then IMO obtaining the court order would simply be a formality.

[flyingdoc]

How do they prove that the "electronic" signature is yours? are there any prescribed features?

[cosalt]

How do they prove that the "electronic" signature is yours? are there any prescribed features?

 

That is what I was thinking, what they have sent is 5 sides of A4 that appear to have all the prescribed terms, however the signature page is on a sheet of its own.

[cosalt]

This is my issue, they may have sent us a document that is technically correct, but how can they prove this is the same as what was read and signed on screen. (I actually signed it for my wife, she knew nothing until the card arrived, nice present !!) So in reality my wife has not signed the agreement, and it is in her name.

 

Probably flogging a dead horse here, but it is interesting nevertheless !

[steven4064]

How do they prove that the "electronic" signature is yours? are there any prescribed features?

The whole document has to originate online and be kept electronically with details of your IP address.

 

Of course, youi can change your IP address by changing ISPs - I'm not sure they thought his through.

[flyingdoc]

Most home users can change their IP address by simply logging off and logging back on again.

However ISP's should keep logs of IPs and time and date so that they can trace back who had what IP address at any given time - not sure how long they maintain those logs though.

[steven4064]

Logging off and on again does not necessarily change you IP address - try it. Changing your router does though.

[flyingdoc]

Lol Im on static IP so mine stays whatever

I think that it depends on your ISP - my mother is on tesco - and merely logging off changes her IP but I take your point.

[tifo]

On-line signatures are valid from the 31st of December 2004 under the Consumer Credit Act 1974 (Electronic Agreements) Order 2004.

 

So this would mean that for applications made before December 2004 and online, the bank would have to provide an agreement signed by the debtor as they normally have to do for a 'paper' application?

 

I ask because i have an online 'application form' as compliance of a s.78 CCA request but this was applied for online in 2000 and doesn't have my signature or the bank's.

[angel_1]

hiya cosalt

 

got to your thread here this eve as i too am still learning all about the electronic online info

 

how have you got on with this one so far

 

im actually awaiting on a sars info for mine now as i got just a very to me it appears as a cut and paste type of job when i asked for mbna to supply my cca ,,,, but now see what the sars turns up

 

also i have subbed to a thread that steven4064

has done on the various cca that are and are not enforceable etc

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/general-debt-issues/162851-consumer-credit-agreements-guide.html

 

Go direct to post 7 for an online one that supports fully executed online agreement - let me know what you think ta

 

laters angel x

Edited March 6, 2009 by angel_1
am back to put link for you to view

[the_shadow]

The whole document has to originate online and be kept electronically with details of your IP address.

 

Of course, youi can change your IP address by changing ISPs - I'm not sure they thought his through.

 

 

Would be nice to see a massive test case on online agreements, They should have attempted to get the MAC address instead of IP as this is physical to the computer you applied from, even then its open to abuse but to use just the IP address to rely on is poor.

 

I'm sure ISPs dont keep detailed tracking of IP's against telephone numbers for too long, it would be interesting to see if anyone could get their details through a SAR against their ISP? whether this would show a log of your online activity:lol:

[steven4064]

I think they keep them for up to 3 years. (I seem to remember reading somewhere). Even MAC address won't do - you can change it on my router and if you buy get a new on or change ISP, it will be different. AS I pointed out before, what if someone were to sign up in your name in the library or internet cafe?

[the_shadow]

I think they keep them for up to 3 years. (I seem to remember reading somewhere). Even MAC address won't do - you can change it on my router and if you buy get a new on or change ISP, it will be different. AS I pointed out before, what if someone were to sign up in your name in the library or internet cafe?

 

[edit] Is it possible to SAR an ISP? I fancy it just as a giggle

 

3 years eh? why has nobody challenged this then? the amount of agreements over the internet that would be invalid would be huge!!!

 

The Mac address is harder to change, it can either be the address of the router that they use (which could be the ISP's / Your's) or the actual ethernet card in the PC(the one I would select) Active X controls can get this from your PC if you use internet explorer as the browser and your security level isnt high enough.

 

I realised that this was still open to misuse but its a far less number than if they use IP addresses.

 

If I was to go to court with an online agreement that relied on an IP address as authenticated I think I'd try the arguement that if the IP address was so secure and so reliable as being "owned" by me then why cant they provide internet banking to my house via this dedicated IP number, why the need for a third party access tool (password calculator)

 

PmW

[Needabreak]

We will need to search the internet etc. I can't see how a tick on a page of paper proves it is your signature. There will be more rules as to how they will have to prove that that tick was done by you at that time etc.

 

Here's a start

The Electronic Signatures Regulations 2002.pdf

 

Is their system certified?

Do they need a separate licence?

How do they prove that the information is reproduced without change, is properly encrypted, and not open to editing?

How do they store such information?

Do they need to do any of the above, if so are they doing it?

 

We should search for legal admissibility of electronic signatures, see if there are any precedents etc.

 

Needabreak

Electronic Communications Act 2000.pdf