Help me Please! Nat West taking court action

[Bincrunched]

Just wanted to say hello to all, i've been reading the threads which i've become addicted to doing! Had problems with Nat West after banking with them for 34 years some goodtimes (in the old days!) some not so good! Now i'm in big trouble!

We employed a builder to extend our home to accomodate my invalid mother. He pulled our home apart and when we began to ask questons about the quality,materials and workmanship he walked out and left us in a derelict state. No bathroom, bannisters or kitchen to speak of!

The original contract sum was for £52.000 thereabouts we had paid him £43.000 approx. £30,000 courtesy of a Nat West loan in 1997. Now owing £18,000.

Forgot to mention it cost us ANOTHER £54,000 to another builder to put it right and complete the work!!!

In 2007 had back injury at work, so could not contiue working.

Early part of 2008 finally got the builder to court. Everyone told us no chance of losing we had more than enough evidence to support our claim, of approx £70,000. Wrong!! we lost to put icing on the cake the wise judge kindly awarded us 100% of the costs amounting to around £150,000. A complete travesty! We couldnt continue the payments to the loan, so N W are now taking legal action and I feel that i've been **** on from a great height!! What now? desperate! Can some kind persons offer any help before I lose the rest of my hair and sanity!!

 

[AndyOrch]

Hi Bincrunched and welcome to Cag

 

You certainly have had a bad run.If you can post the P.O.C of the claim or type verbatum ,less anything personal and the amount involved we will take at look.

 

Regards

 

Andy;)

[Bincrunched]

Hi Andy,yep I've had a dreadful time of it! but I'm sooo grateful that you have taken the time to read my thread to try to help me

The P.O.C's as follows:

 

The Defendant (D) held the accounts as listed below with the claimant ©

D failed to pay the sums due to C when demanded and the sums that remain outstanding under the respective accounts are listed below

 

Account Number Debt balance

xxxxxxxxxxxxxx xxxx.xx

xxxxxxxxxxxxxx xxxxx.xx

 

In addition C claims interest persuant to section 69 of the County Courts Act 1984 at the rate of 8.oo% per annum from xx/xx/08

to payment, both before and after judgment.

Number

(That's it verbatum)

Thanks!!!

Edited November 17, 2008 by Bincrunched
spellings

[AndyOrch]

Hi again

 

Ok firstly is the claim from CCBC (Northampton)?

Secondly you need to send the following to the Claimants Sols requesting information

 

Dear Sir,

 

Re: (Claimant's name) v (Your name) Case No:

CPR 31.14 Request

 

On (date) I received the Claim Form in this case issued by you out of the (Name) County Court.

 

I confirm having returned my acknowledgement of service to the court in which I indicate my intention to contest all of your claim.

 

[Prior to the issue of proceedings I had delivered a request for the production of the agreement mentioned in the Claim Form and on which you rely. That request was ignored][delete if no such request was delivered]

 

Please treat this letter as my request made under CPR 31.14 for the disclosure and the production of a verified and legible copy of [each of the following / the] document(s) mentioned in your Particulars of Claim:

 

1 the agreement. You will appreciate that in an ordinary case and by reason of the provisions of CPR PD 16 para 7.3, where a claim is based upon a written agreement, a copy of the contract or documents constituting the agreement should be attached to or served with the particulars of claim and the original(s) should be available at the hearing. Further, that any general conditions incorporated in the contract should also be attached.

 

 

2 the default notice*

 

3 the termination notice*

 

4 [any other documents mentioned in the Particulars of Claim]*

 

* delete if not mentioned in the Particulars of claim.

 

 

You should ensure compliance with your CPR 31 duties and ensure that the document(s) I have requested are copied to and received by me within 7 days of receiving this letter. Your CPR 31 duties extend to making a reasonable and proportionate search for the originals of the documents I have requested, the better for you to be able to verify the document's authenticity and to provide me with a legible copy. Further, where I have requested a copy of a document, the original of which is now in the possession of another person, you will have a right to possession of that document if you have mentioned it in your case. You must take immediate steps to recover and preserve it for the purpose of this case.

 

Where I have mentioned a document and there is in your possession more than one version of that same document owing to a modification, obliteration or other marking or feature, each version will be a separate document and you must provide a copy of each version of it to me. Your obligations extend to making a reasonable and proportionate search for any version(s) to include an obligation to recover and preserve such version(s) which are now in the possession of a third party.

 

In accordance with CPR 31.15© I undertake to be responsible for your reasonable copying costs incurred in complying with this CPR 31.14 request.

 

If you require more time in which to comply with this request you must tell me in writing. You must tell me before the time for compliance with this request has expired. In telling me you require more time you must tell me what steps you have taken and propose to take in order to comply with this request and also state a date by when you will comply with this request. In addition your statement must be accompanied with a statement that you agree to an extension of the time for me to file my defence. Your extension of time must be not less than 14 days from the date when you say you will have complied with my request and you must state the new date for filing my defence.

 

If you are unable to comply with this request and believe that you will never be able to comply with this request you must tell me in writing.

 

Please note that if you should fail to comply with this request, fail to request more time or fail to agree to an extension of time for the filing of my defence, I will make an application to the court for an order that the proceedings be struck out or stayed for non-compliance and a summary costs order.

 

I do hope this will not be necessary and look forward to hearing from you.

 

yours faithfully

 

 

Send spl delivery retain proof print name

 

Thirdly I would request a copy of both agreements seperatly to the above CPR via a CCA sec 77 request.See templates library and enclose a £1.00 PO x2 and again spl delivery retain proof Letter N from memory.You will have to do this seperatly for both accounts.

 

Just confirm which Court and post if you are unsure.

 

 

Regards

 

Andy

[Bincrunched]

Hi Andy thanks for being there!

 

Nat West Claim was in July 08 I didn't know about CAG then and I was still reeling from the results of the court case against the builder May/June 08.

 

I panicked and put in a counterclaim for charges not knowing what else to do!

Story goes: N.West (Shoosmiths) issued claim against me on 29 July 08

 

I sent an Acknowledgment of Claim received and processed by the court on 11 August 08

 

My Defence and counterclaim was submitted on 29 August 08 (Defended all claim)

 

The Court (yes it was Northampton! how did you know?) wrote to me on 1st September 08 acknowledging receipt of my Defence and to tell me that they had served my Defence on the Claimant.

 

The Court also said that the Claimant must contact the court within 28 days after receipt of the Defence, after that period had elapsed,without contact, the Claim would be 'Stayed'

 

That's all Iv'e heard!! but I'm terrified of what's going to happen now. I can't sleep through worry about what they will do next. Should I still send them the letter you kindly posted?

By the way I think I tipped your'e scales! hope it was ok never done this before so please forgive my ignorance!

Again many thanks

[Bincrunched]

Hi Andy,

Nat West Claim was in July 08 I didn't know about CAG then and I was still reeling from the results of the court case against the builder May/June 08.

I panicked and put in a counterclaim for charges not knowing what else to do!

Story goes: they issued claim against me on 29 July 08

I sent an Acknowledgment of Claim received and processed by the court on 11 August 08

My Defence and counterclaim was submitted on 29 August 08 (Defended all claim)

The Court (yes it was Northampton! how did you know?) wrote to me on 1st September 08 acknowledging receipt of my Defence and to tell me that they had served my Defence on the Claimant.

The Court also said that the Claimant must contact the court within 28 days after receipt of the Defence, after that period had elapsed,without contact, the Claim would be 'Stayed'

That's all Iv'e heard!! but I'm terrified of what's going to happen next. I can't sleep through worry about what they will do next. Should I still send the letter you kindly posted?

By the I think I tipped your'e scales hope it was ok! never done this before so please forgive my ignorance!

Again many thanks:-)

[AndyOrch]

Hi Bincrunched

 

Thanks for the rep:) and kind comments

 

Ok your case`as been stayed this basically means no response from

the Claimant within the 28 days.A case may remain stayed weeks, months even up to a year.The claimant will have to pay to revive said case and can do this anytime they wish to proceed with the claim.

I would help if you can post up a copy of the Defence/CC you submitted so I can see what you refuted/counter claimed.

Irrespective of the above I think it would advisable to request the above I have already advised as this will assist in any revised Defence should this be required.

I know it would appear that we are backtracking a tad but we need to establish that they have followed proceedure and have in effect terminated the agreements correctly.

If you have DNs /termination notices or any CCAs already I would advise you post these up also less your personal details.We need to establish that the DNs are valid as also the agreements, before planning your next move.I would also check if any penalty chages have been levid to said accounts also via your statements if in your possession.

 

I trust the above is of help

 

Regards

 

Andy

Edited November 18, 2008 by Andyorch

[Bincrunched]

Hi Andy, thanks for your response, I left the defence to my partner:rolleyes: bad move!

The Counterclaim for: reclamation of default charges applied to my account.

Reasons for Counterclaim: Do not believe the charges reflect the true cost to Natwest. I have been unlawfully deprived of money.

 

As far as the defence is concerned, although we have ticked the box to defend all the claim it does not appear that we have actually submitted a proper defence. I wouldn't know how to begin to put one together:confused: We waffled on about Unfair Terms under the Consumer regulations and unfair charges. I think this was all done in haste as they had only given us 7 days:confused: I have not received a DN or a Termination of our agreement.

I no longer receive bank statements as they stopped sending them in November 2007.

Not very good at this, please forgive my ignorance!

Thanks again for your help and interest

Bincrunched

[AndyOrch]

Hi I would assume then because of your CC that the case as been stayed pending outcome of the OFT case.

Send the above CCA and CPR Request as advised ASAP and then you will be prepared for any lift on the stay and be in a position to submit any revised Defence based on the contents requested above once recieved.

 

Hope thats of help

 

Regards

 

Andy;)

[Bincrunched]

Hi Andy,

 

I took out the Loan with Natwest in 2000 to sort out the mess that 'Bodge the Builder' left us in. Do you or anyone out there know if the CCA 1974 still applies to the loan? even if it is in excess of £25,000? I heard somewhere, that if the loan exceeds that amount the CCA part 5 does not apply!

 

My agreement is quite sparse and is not even called an 'Agreement' but an 'Advice Of Borrowing Terms' with No actual terms included.

 

Thanks for your it's much appreciated!

[AndyOrch]

Hi Bincrunched

 

In post 1 you state you took the NW loan 1997 above you state 2000 can you confirm?

Can you post a copy of the agreement less personal details?

Have you recieved a Default note /termination notice prior to litigation? If so again post a copy less personal details.

Ok with regards to the CCa 1974 limit of 25k

there was abolition of the upper limit of £25,000 for CCA-regulated loans, due for implementation in April 2008.If they have issued a DN under the terms of the CCA 1974 then they have also issued the claim due to the same terms also but would like to see the " Agreement"

 

Regards

 

Andy

[Bincrunched]

Hi Andy,

 

Thanks so much for coming back to me! Yeh it seems looking at the papers, that I had a loan in 1996 carried over from 1995 of approx £10K

I think that was cleared in around 1997.

Then another loan of £30K 1999 for the building works was agreed by Natwest subject to conditions; security at a min level of 150% of the borrowing. But they seem to have put 2 facilities on the one agreement. 1st being: Overdraft

2 being: £30K loan

They then revised the agreement in 2000. I received 'Advice of Borrowing Terms' in April 2000 telling me that April's AoBT replaced February's 2000 AoBT although I dont recall receiving one for Feb 2000. I did not make use of the monies till 2000.

In 1996 Natwest charged me £30.00 arrangement fees

In 1999 £600.00 A Fees + security fees of £70.00

In April 2000 another £100.00

I don't know about Feb 2000.

It seems that every time a letter was revised they made another charge:x

I appear to have both copies of April 2000 agreement which leads me to believe that I didn't send them back. Neither do they have any security, somehow It didn't get there!

I will attempt to post the Agreement:confused:

In answer to your question re: DN & termination notices, I have not received either of these.

 

I'm really grateful for the interest youv'e taken in my probs

Thanks again!

 

Bincrunched & crunched & crunched................

[Bincrunched]

Hi Andy tried to post copy of the agreement hope it works!

[AndyOrch]

Hi Bincrunched

 

Nothing appeared except the Guest watching everytime you post.Be carefull you are being watched

 

Regards

 

Andy

[Bincrunched]

Hi Andy you must think I'm a real Plonker I'll try again!

NW Doc1.doc

NW Doc2.doc

NWdoc3.doc

[AndyOrch]

Hi Crunched

 

Was the loan secured or unsecured i notice the stocks shares under assets?

From what you have posted they are no way to be considered Agreements CCA1974/6 or whatever.Did you ever sign an agreement and what security did you offer if any?

 

Regards

 

Andy

[Bincrunched]

Hi Andy,

 

Well the loan was supposed to be secured! at least that was NW's intention against some shares (now long gone!) again thanks to Bodge the builder! But no-one ever chased them up!

 

I had to sell the shares to pay for new builders to sort out the huge mess we were left in by Bodge.

 

I made my payments to NatW regularly till my accident. They didn't want reasons for lack of funds or discussions, they just wanted the funds

 

Well, it's truly difficult to give blood when other vampires got there first!

But your'e right it doesn't appear to be much of an agreement.

What do you think?

[Bincrunched]

Andy

I didn't sign any other type of agreement, in fact I don't believe I even signed this one! because I have 2 identicle copies neither are signed

[AndyOrch]

Well if thats the case then this is what i think as happened.They have issued the claim on the understanding that you would not defend and therefore gain judgement by default.Then they would go for the Charging Order to secure the secured debt properly vis a vis the CCJ make sence? :confused:The fact that you did Defend stopped them in their tracks hence the stay and no response.

I would advise you again to send what I have advised, it could be with the threshold being changed on unsecured debts that they have tried their chances in passing this off as an unsecured debt and passed it through the SCT Court.

They have to be able to produce an Agreement to be able to enforce it bottom line full stop.lets put them to proof and give them a run for their money. (dont sign the requests print name only)

 

Would you agree?

 

Andy

Edited November 19, 2008 by Andyorch

[Bincrunched]

Andy

 

You make complete sense and I will take your advice!

but can you explain what you mean by 'threshold change on unsecured debts?' and what is SCT court?

 

The more I learn the more confident I become, so yeh, I'd like to give them a run for their money 'literally'

Hey thanks Andy, I don't feel quite so desperate now! still worried but not desperate.

[AndyOrch]

Andy

 

You make complete sense and I will take your advice!

but can you explain what you mean by 'threshold change on unsecured debts?' and what is SCT court? there was abolition of the upper limit of £25,000 for CCA-regulated loans, due for implementation in April 2008.A change in the CCA 2006 Regs.SCT = Small Claims Court

 

The more I learn the more confident I become, so yeh, I'd like to give them a run for their money 'literally'

Hey thanks Andy, I don't feel quite so desperate now! still worried but not desperate.

 

 

I would be feeling quite confident with the knowledge you have not signed anything

 

Regards

 

Andy

[Bincrunched]

Andy

 

I thought SCT might mean Small Claims Court but wasn't sure because of the amount being over £5000

 

Thanks for the info your assistance is invaluable!!

will keep you posted! ;-) may need a bit of help if I get stuck with the letter, hope thats ok?

 

kind regards

 

Bincrunched, feeling bruised but not so battered now!

[Bincrunched]

Hi Bincrunched back again! Andy followed your advice re: sending CPR 31 request to Nat West. They have not responded and are now out of time, any ideas on what to do next? I've had confirmation that it was delivered.

Sorry it's taken so long but sadly there's been a zillion other problems to deal with!

Hope you can help!

many thanks Bincrunched

[Bincrunched]

I received a letter from Nat West telling me that they had

'Misfiled the agreement & despite searching for it were unable to locate it' then they say that,

'They have insufficient detail to enable them to recreate the agreement with the required degree of certainty this course of action requires.'

They go on to say that 'If I decide not to meet my obligations under the loan as they fall due, they will be unable to take steps to enforce repayment of the loan.'

They further say

'You should continue to meet your obligations under the agreement bearing in mind that the agreement isn't void, it remains valid and my continuing default will be reported to the CRA's.' S.77(4) only prevents them from pursuing recovery of the debt through the courts.'

They end by telling me to contact them to arrange repayment! (yeh right):grin:

[Bincrunched]

Not happy with the idea of leaving this situation in limbo I decided to pass a copy of their letter to the court.

I have now received a letter from their solicitors asking me to consent to their discontinuing the case!

I'm very suspicious as to why they want my consent to discontinue! have they got something up their sleeves?

I did put in a counterclaim for my charges, if I consent to discontinue the case does anyone know how that would affect my counterclaim?

I really need some help on what to do now,

Andyorch, anyone please help!!