they cancelled car insurance without telling me!

[Bernie_the_Bolt]

Insurance cannot be backdated. It can be got around in some circumstances, but usually in those cases, in law, the insurance contract was running anyway and really it is not "backdating". The very idea of backdating insurance goes against the entire point of insurance - covering risk. If it were allowed, we'd all be driving without insurance until an accident happened.

 

I would be interested in seeing an example (preferably real) of where insurance has been backdated.

 

Just to be clear, this is relating solely to motor insurance as required under the RTA.

[sim42]

Can you post the date of the first DD that was refused by your bank. Also confirm when you actually got paid from work (ie what dates were funds available). As far as you are aware was it only one DD that was refused (ie one months payment)

 

Sorry to ask these personal questions, but that information could be quite salient to what I am thinking might be an argument for you to use.

 

Also you now state that your Dad was the policyholder but it was you and your bank that was paying the premiums. OK that changes it slightly, the CIS do not have to notify YOU since you are not the policyhoilder, the onus now shifts to you to ensure that you were insured to drive the car BEFORE you took charge of it.

 

If you answer the points raised above, I'll get my thinking head on.

 

Mossy

 

The insurance was paid by direct debit on the 10th of every month. When the CIS tried to get the money on the 10th July and couldn't they cancelled the policy the very same day. Thats my point - they gave no warning nor any confirmation of cancellation.

Funds where available about 4 or five days later but of course by then the policy was cancelled. It was only one refused DD.

 

Just to be clear the car was owned by my dad with him as policyholder, me as named driver. Dad paid for direct debit but the CIS didn't inform either of us. Mossy you say it was my responsibilty to check I was insured but who could be expected to phone their insurance company each time they use the car - its crazy - you assume your insured unless told otherwise.

 

whats the plan mossy?

[Mossycat]

OK an insurer CANNOT suddenly cease cover without warning, and has a duty to inform the policyholder (in this case) your dad that the policy was about to be cancelled (otherwise there would be a lot of instances like this happening).

 

The CIS are usually pretty good at doing things right (and at doing the right thing).

 

The plan is that you ring (or your dad rings) the CIS head office in Manchester and demands to speak to a senior motor claims underwriter.

 

In the conversation stress that after one refused DD the insurance was cancelled, no 14 day letter of warning, no attempt to retake the DD, and by their own admission they have admitted that the policyholder was unaware of the cancellation and you as a named driver were driving the vehicle believing in good faith you were insured.

 

Give the underwriter a chance to sort it out.

 

If they refuse to do anything, but the above in writing and demand a reply in writing because (and tell them this you will be taking this to the FOS).

 

Post back if you need further advice

 

Mossy

[sim42]

I’ve written a letter to the co-op to confirm that they didn’t send any notification and I’m still waiting for a response.

I know they confirmed they didn’t send a letter over the phone. Is their anyway I can get a copy of that recording, possibly under the data protection act?

I’ve got my ‘special reasons’ hearing next Monday at Kendal magistrates. I know at these things the burden of proof is on me to prove I was driving with the intention of being insured. Any advice on what I should say and what evidence I should bring?

[Mossycat]

Take a copy of the insurance policy and before you go list all the salient dates.

 

Date insurance taken out

 

Date of first direct debit

 

Number of direct debits taken in total

 

Date of failed direct debit

 

State your case clearly, do not rush and do not get emotional.

 

State what you were told over the phone by the CIS and tell them that you are seeking a copy of this and have also written to the CIS (take a copy of that letter too).

 

Summarise by stating that you were driving the car because you fully believed you were insured at the time, insurance works on the principal of utmost good faith and to that end you were driving in good faith that you were not insured. The CIS did not abide by the guidelines of the FSA in regard to informing their policyholder about the cancellation and accordingly unless you had rung them everytime you were about to drive the car (which is totally impractical) there is no way you could have found out that the policy had been cancelled, and whilst you accept that you were driving without insurance there are some extremely mitigating circumstances.

 

Hopefully you will have got a reply from the CIS by then about the letter of indemnity.

 

OK sneaky plan B, ring the CIS again, record it yourself, don't forget to state at the start of the conversation that you may record calls (probably whilst you are on hold or pressing button options), and get a senior manager to comment on this case. Stress it is in Court next Monday, ask the same questions you asked before, and lead him to some answers like 'I was told the last time I rang the CIS that they did not , is that normal, how then do policyholders know the policy has been cancelled. (Get the idea?).

 

Post back on Friday with your final questions or things you need advice on, I say Friday because it will give you time to prepare what you need and organise what you need to.

 

Mossy

[bazaar]

Hi Sim

got to your thread after the PM.

They will always say they 'Tried ' to contact you by phone. They tried that one with my son, I would send them an SAR to make sure you get from them all info they hold on you. It'll cost £10 but if they havent sent a notice to you, this will show up, then you can take them to small claims for your losses as well as reporting them to Ombudsmen etc.

My sons case was this, insurer cancelled policy and said they tried to contact by phone, but had wrong numbers ( This was a lie). So I made son go to office and ask politely for a copy of his policy. An office junior gave him that. so he went to court, showed the policy and it was end of story. However, he should have gone for the jugular then because he actually lost his car.

In the mean time, the insurer's manager has deleted his records, but as I was abroad at the time, my son never chased this up.

good luck

[vusys1]

im confused?

PH is the dad & dad is paying the DD? why would CIS call the named driver about a DD default? surely it would be the PH

 

also,I personally have never heard of a Ins Company calling to inform a PH that their DD has rejected.

 

From my knowledge of the way DD's work is that the Ins company applies to the bank a few days before the collection date to make sure the money is there,if its not a letter is usually sent to the ph to say we will try again a few days later etc,usually about 2 more times,they then issue the cancellation due to non payment if the payment cannot be collected.

 

If the DD instruction was cancelled by the PH the company can cancel the policy back the payment rejection date as some small print states that this in an instruction to can the policy etc.

[Mossycat]

im confused?

PH is the dad & dad is paying the DD? why would CIS call the named driver about a DD default? surely it would be the PH

 

 

Yeah you are confused

 

The PH is the dad but the son pays the DD.

 

According to previous posts anyway

 

Mossy

[sim42]

sorry to be confusing; My dad was paying the DD but the CIS didn't inform either of us.

I know all correspondents would have gone through him and I wouldn't expect the CIS to contact me personally but I expect them to tell one of us!

[breeze1996]

sorry when I missed a D/D payment for insurance they sent a letter that they would apply again 10 days later for the amount.

 

Check your account to make sure they didn't take the money a few days later.

[sim42]

sorry when I missed a D/D payment for insurance they sent a letter that they would apply again 10 days later for the amount.

 

Check your account to make sure they didn't take the money a few days later.

 

No, they didn't tell us that they couldn't get any money out of the account. If they did I wouldn't be in this situation now.

their was money in the account very shortly (about 4 days) after the due date of the DD so they obviously didn't apply again.

 

On another note, can anyone give me more info on these SAR Subject Access Requests.

I hear they are about £10. Do I simply write to the CIS with a cheque?

What do you get and how long will it take?

 

Just an update on my case: Its now been adjoured for another 2 weeks due to strike action at the magistrates. Do you think this will be enough time to get the S.A.R?

 

thanks for your help.

[bazaar]

Hi Sim

If you send an SAR they have 40 days to comply, at the same time, you could ask for their complaints procedure, this should put them on notice that you may go to FOS in the near future, because they did not follow the correct procedure for cancellation

[Beanie1]

Hi, just want to throw a different slant on this and ask a couple of questions. Q1, On what date did CIS cancel your insurance, i know it was from 10th July but when did they actually process the cancellation?

Q2, did you/your dad receive a charge from the bank due to insufficient funds?

[sim42]

Hi guys, been away for a while but I've still been working hard to resolve this issue. heres where i am at the minute;

 

phoned up the CIS yet again the other day, but this time I recorded it. I was a bit sneaky about it. First of all I didn't say who I was; I just acted like a new customer asking general questions. I asked random stuff about courtesy cars, European cover, online discount etc. I then went for the killer and asked about my rights to cancel.

I asked what would happen if they wanted to cancel the policy. They said they have to send a warning letter a massive 21 days before cancellation. They will then send another letter a week before and then normally one once they actually cancelled.

I then explained I had a policy and asked if they sent any of these letters. He put me on hold and came back with what I already knew. He admitted, straight into the sound recorder they hadn't sent any of these letters. I also confirmed they had all my correct details such as address- they did.

I then demanded to speak to a senior at their Manchester HQ. I kicked up a right fuss explaining how much this had cost me, that I could lose my licence and that I wanted to make a complaint.

Anyway, after a while he apologised. I suggested if they could carry on the insurance up until September, thus allowing me to be insured at the time in question.

He said they would consider it if I could prove I had no accidents during this time.

I didn't have any accidents, but how do you prove that? Anyway, it all seemed a bit underhand and I’m wondering if I'm doing the right thing. If I carry on the insurance I’ll have to pay the enemy even more but at least I won’t get any points.

On the other hand, I'll doubt I'll get convicted with this evidence anyway but then I will be able to complain to get my money back.

What do you think? All comments much welcomed

[Monty2007]

I have read this thread with interest and I believe that you have enough evidence to convince the court that the CIS did not follow industry-prescribed procedure (or thier own) in terms of policy cancellation. The phone recording may have been illegally obtained if you did not warn them that you were recording the conversation but if they honour their word and provide cover documentation or a letter to the same effect then you should be okay.

 

As you mentioned above, if you provide other details of your character in support of this then that should also go in your favour.

 

Sounds like a nightmare and I wish you well, hopefully it will be over soon.

[bazaar]

hi sim

have you sent off the subject access request?. This will give you the necessary paperwork to decide to claim against them. Obviously, there would not be any letters showing sent to you regarding the cancellation of policy, Your recording wouldnt stand as it is, because you would have had to advise them that you were recording the conversation at the time.

You need to complain in writing first, get their procedures and follow them. In your complaint you could invite them to pay you for their errors (you'll need to work out what it costs you). Once the complaints procedure is exhausted, then you can report them to the Ombudsman.

 

Then you'll issue a 'letter before action' if you want to go further.

Are you going to court soon?

[sim42]

thanks monty and bazaar

at the beginning i asked if i could record the call so should be okay. I've sent a formal complaint which will be reviewed impartially by the FSA so that should hopefully add weight to my argument. If thats not satifactory then i will go to the obbudsman.

 

bazaar, i sent off the SAR (by recorded delivery) about 10 days ago but they have 40 days in which to respond and i don't think they're in any hurry

 

at last i feel like im getting somewhere.

Edited November 18, 2008 by sim42

[patdavies]

Your recording wouldnt stand as it is, because you would have had to advise them that you were recording the conversation at the time.

 

No you don't. There is no requirement to do so for an individual when recording a personal call.

[BSC]

No you don't. There is no requirement to do so for an individual when recording a personal call.

Since when has calling a business been a 'personal' call?? Sorry but your wrong.

[sim42]

hi guys

just want to drop a new angle on things.

what would happen if i went to court and they accepted my special reasons and i escaped penalty points/fine. Would that still mean however, that i was still convicted of driving uninsured?

if so, what are the implications? would i for example, have to declare this when getting a new car insurance quote and if so would it bump up the price as much as someone convicted with full points and a fine?

 

finally, im now worried this could be put onto my criminal record. I know its a crime but surely its not recorded - is it? After all, i thought speeding was a criminal matter but who hasn't had a speeding fine at some point?

 

can any of you brainy law guys out their shed some light on this.

[patdavies]

Since when has calling a business been a 'personal' call?? Sorry but your wrong.

 

No, I'm not

 

Oftel FAQs

 

 

Can I record telephone conversations on my home phone?

 

Yes. The relevant law, RIPA, does not prohibit individuals from recording their own communications provided that the recording is for their own use.

 

Do I have to let people know that I intend to record their telephone conversations with me?

No, provided you are not intending to make the contents of the communication available to a third party. If you are you will need the consent of the person you are recording.

[patdavies]

hi guys

just want to drop a new angle on things.

what would happen if i went to court and they accepted my special reasons and i escaped penalty points/fine. Would that still mean however, that i was still convicted of driving uninsured? Yes

if so, what are the implications? would i for example, have to declare this when getting a new car insurance quote and if so would it bump up the price as much as someone convicted with full points and a fine? Yes, you have still been convicted

finally, im now worried this could be put onto my criminal record. I know its a crime but surely its not recorded - is it? After all, i thought speeding was a criminal matter but who hasn't had a speeding fine at some point? It is defined as a non-recordable offence; it won't show on a CRB check, etc.

can any of you brainy law guys out their shed some light on this.

 

The 'special reasons' are to not be given any endorsement (penalty points). Such reasons do not remove any conviction or liability for a fine. In fact, the fine may be pitched higher as an alternative to endorsement.

 

I have to say though, it appears to be an open and shut case with no defence nor valid special reasons. This is because the offence is 'strict liability' and intent plays no part.

[bazaar]

No, I'm not

 

Oftel FAQs

 

now now children. . I believe the original intent to record the conversation is to then use it as leverage in a possible claim against the insurer, so strictly speaking you would need to tell them your were recording to strengthen the claimants position

[sim42]

I have to say though, it appears to be an open and shut case with no defence nor valid special reasons. This is because the offence is 'strict liability' and intent plays no part.

 

 

can you expand on this. If this isn't a valid special reason, what would be? The special reasons argument was created for a reason; to allow people such as myself to escape points whereby the situation could not have been practically avoided.

I can think of no clearer example of a special reason. If this doesn't qualify in your book, what would? or do you disagree with the whole 'special reasons' concept cos im afraid you can't make up your own laws.

Edited November 21, 2008 by sim42

[vusys1]

I have written quite a few statements for the Police when they have been prosecuting unisured drivers etc,usually when the plead not guilty etc.And the CPS want statement of events that led to cancellation or invalid insurance etc.

 

Have CIS provided the Police with one?

 

if as you said CIS confirmed they did not send any letters to confirm that they were cancelling your policy (which they are obliged to do) then I dont see a problem.