*** PLEASE HELP - Is My CCA Enforceable? ***

[A+]

Hi everyone. Sorry, i have a CCA response here, and its the first time i have had a reply to my CCA request other than letters saying they don't need to provide one! I have scanned ALL contents of the envelope, which are below: the three sheets which were enclosed, the first is covering letter, the other two are reduced photocopies...

 

Basically, before i negotiate a settlement (and hopefully get a LOT of charges taken off beforehand) i wondered if someone with a very experienced eye could look over the pics below and advise if this is a valid CCA request being honoured by creditor?

MANY thanks to all of you, this site is a Godsend for me and many others.

 

 

[PGH7447]

Sorry but it looks good to me, In would now sar egg and get the statements to see if any charges have been applied

[A+]

Thank you. Hopefully there is a letter template for SAR so will have a look first as i know nothing about SAR requests.

Just out of interest, is there any guidance on the forum about negotiating settlements with creditors, i.e. methods to succeed in getting as low as possible as settlement figure? I have to say that since i own NOTHING and would happily be bankrupt if i could afford it (and have tried pushing them to taking me bankrupt in the past!) then i think i have a fairly strong footing for a good deal cos i simply don't have much money, what i will have to settle will be loaned from family, and hence i may prefer bankruptcy. Thanks again

[PGH7447]

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/letter-templates/155529-r-subject-access-request.html

[harlequin10]

Hi

 

I received exactly the same CCA from Egg that was sent to me by ARC (Europe) Ltd I found the following thread helpful:

Zubo v Egg

I sent a letter to ARC saying that the original terms and conditions were missing and that the account was still in default.

 

Today they sent me a letter saying that they will instruct solicitors to issue a County Court Claim against me if the amount remains unpaid. They are also offering me a substantial discount as full and final settlement but they dont say how much.

 

Like you I dont really know what to do!!!

[A+]

Hi Harlequin, thanks so much for posting here. Its great when someone has exactly the same situation. i will try to find that thread you mention. i am totaly inexperienced at this, but the speed and manner of the letter (after 4 years of threatening letters, i get a good feel for the tone of letters!) just has me convinced they are sneaking something past me without noticing. although if the experts here say it IS enforceable then i will have to believe it, however much i don't want to! I just want everything to be 100% CONCRETE and CERTAIN before i borrow money from a relative and pay it to a billionaire

[robcag]

Hi aaa....

 

I've read elsewhere on the forums about EGG agreements being enforceable, however there may be a small ray of hope.

 

Just my non-expert opinion; the terms contained on the 'first' page of the agreement contain all the prescribed terms in itself, but I cannot see any statement on the signature page which makes a reference to the T&Cs overleaf or elsewhere, thereby linking the signature page with the page containing the prescribed terms.

 

Unless EGG still have the original document (which may only be ascertainable by going to court) which shows the two sheets side by side, or possibly each side of 1 piece of paper, then it would seem there is a good chance that what they have produced is unenforceable.

 

As I say, thats just my view so it may be worthwhile getting a more expert view from someone else on this site.

 

Good luck

Rob

[Having_A_Knightmare]

Just my non-expert opinion; the terms contained on the 'first' page of the agreement contain all the prescribed terms in itself, but I cannot see any statement on the signature page which makes a reference to the T&Cs overleaf or elsewhere, thereby linking the signature page with the page containing the prescribed terms.

 

Very good point robcag I agree with you.

Looking at the quality of the agreement it possibly may be a microfish copy as well.

 

Also Egg have not sent the main T&C so theyu are still in breach of 78(1)

 

HAK

[banker_rhymes_with]

The dark black borders around the edges of the Copies do suggest these are indeed Micofiche Scans.

 

Any Photocopier that did that would be off for a Service or the great Photocopier Grave Yard in the sky.

 

Cheers,

BRW

[robcag]

The dark black borders around the edges of the Copies do suggest these are indeed Micofiche Scans.

 

Any Photocopier that did that would be off for a Service or the great Photocopier Grave Yard in the sky.

 

 

Hi BRW

 

OK, not a photocopier, but my flat-bed scanner does that also if using paper of a smaller size (even A4) than the scanning area, unless I 'crop' the scan area in the scanning software, or crop afterwards in image-editing software.

 

Just pointing out that black borders can also appear for legitimate reasons .

 

Cheers

Rob

[A+]

Hmm, thanks very much to you all. Now then, where do i go from here? I am not asking you, i know i must decide myself, but i could really appreciate some help in making that decision.

I have various options...

 

1. Settle after charges deducted

2. Claim its not enforceable and hope they offer a low settlement and go for that

3. Claim its not enforceable and go to court to get a chance to see the original (whether i would or not i don't know) and take a slim chance on the document being insubstantial to enforce.

4. Bankruptcy

 

Option 4 is my personal favourite as i have nothing and any funds for a settlement would be borrowed from my sister which i don't want to do. The problem is i can't afford to go self made bankrupt so may need to push them into forcing it on me. Maybe i should just call their bluff and tell em to take me to court, and hopeto see the original CCA.

Any advice or thoughts on what others would do in the same situation?

Thanks again

[banker_rhymes_with]

Hello Robcag!

 

Just pointing out that black borders can also appear for legitimate reasons

 

Agreed it's possible, thanks for pointing this out. However, most Photocopiers and Scanners have white lids to stop exactly this, so black edges are not that common. That's unless the lid is up or raised, say, when Scanning a thick book or fat pile of papers. If the lid is off the Scanning Bed, then the Scanner's Light goes out further before it bounces back and is read by the Scanning Head. Thus, it captures an image in effect, rather than the item immediately on the Bed...it sees darkness and as a result you can get a grey to dark edge.

 

But most Scanners/Photocopiers are designed to try and avoid that by having a white lid, and even if the lid were well off the Bed, most decent units would capture an image of the lid that would look grey. Try Scanning a pencil with the lid up, and you may see what I mean, you'd see the Pencil, and a grey background that might even capture some of the room depending on the ambient light in the room.

 

The above Documents look to be thin sheets, so you'd assume any lid would be flat against the paper being scanned. You'd not normally see a thick black border if Scanned or Photocopied, whereas you do tend to see this on Microfiche Scans.

 

To stress, I did say suggest, I did not say that they are Microfiche Scans for certain. But they do look like it as far as I can tell. The black borders are very dark indeed.

 

There is something else very odd, the 1st page is using a different Font or Typeface to the 2nd Page. The 1st is a Sans Serif, the 2nd is mainly Serif, i.e.:

 

Sans Serif = Verdana

 

Serif = Times New Roman

 

The Serif is the little tails you see on each character, that are absent on a Font like Verdana. Sans Serif just means no-Tails! The 1st Page is all Sans Serif, the 2nd page is mainly Serif, with some Sans Serif at the bottom.

 

Again, these are just observations. But it's further doubt these two Pages are directly linked to one Document.

 

If they don't have the Original, then even more doubt creeps in...a lot of doubt in fact!

 

Any advice or thoughts on what others would do in the same situation?

 

I'd probably go for a S.A.R - (Subject Access Request) to see what that produces. Also, keep reading on CAG, as there are many similar Threads and you can see what others have done in the same basic position.

 

Cheers,

BRW

Edited October 15, 2008 by banker_rhymes_with
Clarity on Sans Serif = No Tails!

[A+]

Thanks Banker, love your username!!!!!

I read all that interesting post, and notice a very heavy black border on mine too, so considering letting them take me to court just to see if they have the original and if so, that the signatures are in the right places. Just out of interest, what would it mean if it was a 'microfiche'? Sorry this doens't mean anything to me.

[banker_rhymes_with]

Hello ax13!

 

If they did send you a Court Claim, then it could be wise to be ready to hit them straight back with CPR 31.14...to pin them down in terms of declaring what they really have in their possession before they even get to Court.

 

You should read this Thread to understand that:

 

Getting Them To Reveal Their Vitals. Using CPR 31.14 to Your Advantage

 

Just out of interest, what would it mean if it was a 'microfiche'? Sorry this doens't mean anything to me.

 

It's a way that Documents can be Scanned and usually reduced in Size to save space. A bit like the manual Car Parts systems that Garages used to use, where they had their Parts Guides on A5 Size Film, that they then read via a big Magnifying Box. Those details are near impossible to read by eye, as they are so small.

 

Thankfully, someone sold the idea to gullible bankers with too much money on their hands, and who were too lazy to file simple Paper documents!

 

So, a lot of bankers elected to Scan to Microfiche and then shred their Paper Agreements.

 

That seemed like a good idea until it was pointed out to them that they have a duty to keep all live Agreements for around 5+ Years after the Agreement ended to comply with Anti-Money Laundering requirements.

 

Likewise, most decent Judges would need to see an Original Agreement if it was based on a Paper Document and Signatures. CPR PD 16 7.3 mentioned in the above Thread also states that Original Agreements should be brought into Court.

 

The bankers have reacted to their mistakes by trying to gloss over it, and use their financial might to try and get past this. Various ways including using expensive Barristers to hood-wink half asleep/compliant Judges, putting pressure on weak Politicians to dismantle areas of the Consumer Credit Act, such as the scrapping of s127(3) for Agreements affected by CCA 2006 or later, and exploiting the s77-79 issues to generate cobbled together true copy agreements that are almost anything but.

 

The bankers also like to hide behind the copy issue by introducing other copies that they claim were part of the original. After all, if they can get one copy to be accepted, then they may as well bundle any other copies with it if they make the 1st Copy into something a blinkered or biased Judge will enforce.

 

On the right day, with the right Judge and with the right Barrister and with a weak Defence and inexperienced Litigant in Person (LiP), they have been known to get away with this.

 

But, stick to your guns, and make them aware that you will want to see the Original if this ever goes to Court. If they have it, and it is enforceable, then they may win...that's provided they have also Defaulted and Terminated the Agreement lawfully, and provided they have not conducted a campaign of Harassment that could result in Compensation that wipes out the Debt.

 

I regret you have a lot to read on CAG to get a full handle on this, and you must also be aware that there is a lot of luck in getting a fair minded Judge on the day. But, if you do your homework, and plan how you will handle them even before they reach the Court Claim stage, that is half of your battle won for you.

 

I hope this helps. By far the best advice I can give is to get reading, and chase up any Threads that may relate to your own situation.

 

Cheers,

BRW

Edited October 14, 2008 by banker_rhymes_with
Typo.

[A+]

BRW, so sorry about my username. I tried 5 different ones (all fairly normal and not obscene!) but the forum kept rejecting them, so i held down the A key for a while and submitted it, it accepted and here i am under a stupid username!! I don't think i can change it, but if i can i will!

 

THANK YOU so much for your detailed post. That was so very kind of you to spare your time like that. Having read it though, it sounds very much like one of those situations where unless i can afford a good lawyer (which i can't) or unless i find time to read thousands of posts (which i really can't as i am working 14 hours a day unpaid at present, long story!) then i think i am out of luck. Having said that, i intend to fight this with what little knowledge i have and WILL read everything i can find time to read. Thanks for the tip on CPR 31.14 whatever that is. I will definitely look into that, because i believe this is a microfiche copy and if so, i bet they havent got the paper one, and i would be prepared to go to court just to see!

Considering i have another 10 creditors to go through with this (though one has given up already and ceased to pursue - HOORAY!!!!) - i feel i will fall down in simple lack of time available to educate myself to your incredible level, but as i said, i will do my very best to do so.

 

Thank you so much

A+

[banker_rhymes_with]

Hello ax13!

 

Don't be down heartened, that was not my intention at all, and I hope nothing I have said has undermined your confidence.

 

Keep posting, as that is the key strength of CAG. Share your concerns and banking problems, because others can and will jump in to advise from their own experience.

 

Their thousands of hours of reading will come to your help, and in time, your own experience may then help others down the line.

 

Even if it is only for an hour a day, try to find the time.

 

Start 10 Threads (if you have not already done so!), one for each Creditor, and use your Threads to keep track, and make sense, out of the problems you must face.

 

Your Tactics will evolve, and as you resolve one, that will help with others.

 

Whilst it may be nice to have a Lawyer, all that you need is here. The key from now on is to use what limited spare time you have wisely.

 

Good luck, I'm sure you will get the help you need right here on CAG.

 

Cheers,

BRW

[robcag]

Hi BRW

 

I have to say that was a lot of excellent helpful advice to aaa.... and all within a few posts (12,14,16)!

 

The reason I added my explanation about the black borders is because that is what my scanner does as it has a thick black 'padding' added to the inside of the cover. However it is an old AGFA SnapScan 600, several years old now, but highish spec when I bought it!

 

 

BRW, so sorry about my username. I tried 5 different ones (all fairly normal and not obscene!) but the forum kept rejecting them, so i held down the A key for a while and submitted it, it accepted and here i am under a stupid username!! I don't think i can change it, but if i can i will!

 

 

Hi aaa....

 

I have a feeling that it is possible to change your username (although I could be wrong) if you ask a site helper.

 

BRW has given you some good advice, so best wishes if you decide to follow it. Play them at their own game and there is a good possibility of beating them!

 

Cheers

Rob

[banker_rhymes_with]

Hello Rob!

 

The reason I added my explanation about the black borders is because that is what my scanner does as it has a thick black 'padding' added to the inside of the cover. However it is an old AGFA SnapScan 600, several years old now, but highish spec when I bought it!

 

Many thanks for that, as it is good to discuss the issue and understand how black edges can differ and be explained in various ways. The thick black borders, however, do tend to suggest a Microfiche Scan. But you are absolutely right that people must not see a black edge and think that automatically means Microfiche.

 

I have a feeling that it is possible to change your username (although I could be wrong) if you ask a site helper.

 

I can say from experience that a User Name can be changed! Mine was because my first one was just a little too rude about bankers, and they asked me to change it. We agreed BRW was just rude enough without being too rude!

 

 

Another User I know of also had their User Name changed, as I think they had used the Registration of their Car, and later realised it was too easy to identify them, so it was changed.

 

I don't think the Site Team want to keep changing User Names, but I am sure they will do so in ax13's case, as it's a name that was almost certainly created out of frustration!

 

Indeed, how about changing it to AX13!

 

 

Cheers,

BRW

[jo5ephedward5]

did they comply with any other aspect of the CCA - i.e deed of assignment etc etc

[cbd13]

friendly bump and cheeky request! could someone check my thread on Amex (no one visiting at mo) and advise on my CCA? thank you!

[A+]

Thanks both of you, any idea who i should send a message to to ask about this? I don't know who the site helpers are.

Thanks again

[banker_rhymes_with]

Hello ax13!

 

I don't know who the site helpers are.

 

That's easy, just go to the Site main Forum page here

 

Then scroll down to the bottom, and you will see all the CAG Users that are logged in and on-line. The Site Team are the ones in Orange.

 

Click on one of them, and you should be able to send them a Private Message (PM) to request a name change.

 

Cheers,

BRW

[A+]

P.S. just to keep you all updated, i am going to fight this even though i may lose. I WANT TO SEE THE ORIGINAL. There are several issues which although are not strong points, i feel they are enough (given my desperate situation) to let this run its course and let them spend time PROVING they have papers in hardcopy.

 

1. Signature dates - pre-approved but subject to further checks? Strange if you ask me

2. Black border - if it IS microfiche, i am a winner i think (correct me if wrong) - as CCA stated, "true copy of original"

3. Ts and Cs not included

 

These three things don't make me sure of anything, but i think its enough to warrant needing to SEE that they have the originals, now to find out how to see them without going to court, BRW mentioned something about CPR above, so gonna check that out now and see where this road goes

THANKS TO ALL OF YOU SO MUCH, will keep you posted

[A+]

Thanks for name change advice. Doing that now too. Cheers everyone, esp BRW

[robcag]

..... BRW mentioned something about CPR above, so gonna check that out now and see where this road goes ...

 

This would be something you would do if a court claim is issued against you, and the quicker you react the better, so worth bearing in mind.

 

Cheers

Rob