Underage Gambling

[RDJ]

I am 17 and have lost over £3,500 gambling on football. I would like to ask whether I have a case for claiming any of my losses back.

 

It first started when I was 15 and used my mother’s credit card to deposit a small amount of money on the William Hill website. I did this with her permission. I deposited more but she didn’t particularly mind this as I created a sophisticated spreadsheet detailing every bet and how I was doing. And I was doing well for quite a while, until I lost about £150 and tried to recover my losses. The result of which was a total loss of £500 before I stopped. This money was paid back from a savings account in my name.

 

A year later I started gambling again using my own money. I did this by transferring cash from my online bank account to a third party company who would then transfer the money instantly into a Bet365 account. To take advantage of an affiliate account that I was running with them, I bet overtime using multiple accounts – most of which were registered to fake names and addresses.

 

I went on to gamble with several other online bookmakers, using different methods to deposit in my real name. Three of the six firms that I gambled with online accepted my Solo card without first checking whether I was over 18, whilst another accepted bank transfers.

 

Only once was I asked for any proof of identification, and that was from the company that I deposited money via bank transfers. I didn’t hesitate scanning in my passport and using editing software to change my date of birth. I emailed this to them and it was accepted straight away. Another bookie, one that I used my Solo card to deposit money into, once asked for a copy of my bank statement to prove that it was indeed my card. I simply emailed them a screenshot of my online bank account.

 

I should point out that during this period I opened up accounts with other firms, but was unable to deposit money with them as they took the issue of underage gambling more seriously and made better efforts to prevent it – such as identity checks on national databases.

 

I stopped gambling in February this year as I thought that enough was enough.

 

Shortly afterwards I decided to write to all six bookmakers in an attempt to claim my money back as I am underage. Most didn’t respond (just locked my accounts instead), but one called my parents and alerted them to what was going on (they didn’t know). The guy promised to bring my situation up at a meeting that he would be attending along with the other firms in April, but he hasn’t responded to my dad’s emails since. I had never planned to try to claim my losses back if I lost at gambling, this wasn’t just some back up for me, and I made that clear.

 

Months on, nothing has happened. However, I have recently gambled again on the World Cup. I did this using my mum’s card with a variety of different bookies, giving her the cash upfront. My mum regrets doing this even though I won money overall, primarily because I was silly and used the bookmaker who had contacted my parents before, who again contacted my parents (only speaking to my mum) when I withdrew my winnings (including initial deposit) as the account had the same home address. My mum was embarrassed and denied giving me permission to use her card to gamble. The guy asked her to get my dad to call him back, to which she hasn’t. As a result, the company has kept my deposit of £90, but has decided not to withdraw any money back to the card.

 

So… can anyone advise me on where I stand in regards to money that I lost in my name, fake names and my mum's credit card, whilst also taking into consideration that with one company I supplied an edited document to verify my identity and age (FRAUD!)??? ()

 

To be honest, although I think the bookies that I used could’ve/should’ve done more to prevent me from being able to gamble with them, I accept full responsibility as I knew what I was doing. But surely, from a legal standpoint, these companies cannot profit from a minor regardless of anything else. However, I do accept that the bookies couldn’t be reasonable expected to prevent me from using them when I used my mother’s credit card to do so.

 

I would very much appreciate any thoughts on the matter.

 

Thankyou!

[welly]

This is my own opinion but I would not follow this up and put it down to experience as you may end up with you in court on fraud charges if you chace the company's involved.

 

It may be that some of them get a slap for it and told to control the accounts a bit better but with the amounts that they make they wont care as long as they get your money.

 

And as your mum let you use her C/C for it as well she can also end up in court as it is Illegal to do so.

 

I'm sure some of the other CAG members will be more up on this and give you advice and have a read round the forums you never know what you may find:)

 

And have you stopped gambling as well? if not it may be best to get some help now;)

 

Good luck mate

[demon_x_slash]

You lied and stole. You lost.

[JonCris]

You lied and stole. You lost.

 

Blunt, to the point but I'm afraid true.

 

I suspect that it the card company find out your mother let you use her card it will be withdrawn & a demand made that all outstanding credit be paid forthwith. She may even be put on the fraud register which will make it impossible for her & any associated name (you, your parents & any other person living in your home) to obtain finance

 

When you registered the card on line not being the account holder you commited an offence as some of your answers you gave must have been untrue.

 

As I recall a gambling debt would not be recoverable from you by the company. Equally I suggest in order not to cause your parents real problems you should tread very carefully & not try & use your age as a means of recovering money you lost. After all it appears these companies did nothing wrong other than they believed who you said you claimed to be.

 

Also & this is the scary bit, if you set up false accounts to get your ill gotten gains you are almost certainly guilty of "Money Laundering" which carries a maximum sentence of 14 years.

 

The best advice I can offer is that if you haven't already you come completely clean with your parents & let them decide what to do next. Also it does appear to me that you have the makings of a gambling addiction & need professional help asap

[Isiris]

Wow something I know what Im talking about....

 

I presume you used an online wallet such as Neteller or Moneybookers to deposit into these bookmaker. You will have depsited into these using a BACS transfer and then depsited into these accounts via said source.

 

Now have a look at this:- Gambler's £158,000 loss on parents' cards | This is Money

 

This is a story of a lad who Lost £158,000 on the internet (It actually was £90k of his mum and dads credit card money he stole).

 

Now people go on and whinge how internet has made gambling easy and the scourge of our society. For my troubles I packed in work 1 year ago and am a professional trader on the internet using exchanges against bookmakers.

 

You DELIBERATELY tried everything you could to get your bets on. You used third party sources to fund your accounts and web wallets to dilute the paper trail. You knew EXACTLY what you were doing and Im sorry, but your mum needs to sit back and look at herself and look where she went wrong, letting her 17 son bet using her account.

 

The bookmakers will do a check to confirm that the card used is registered to the address on the account. If this fails they will then ask for ID. They are taking due dilligance. If you then send in doctored documents, you are then committing, and i say this as an assumption rather than a statement, Fraud, attempting to obtain property by deception and if your mother didnt know about the bets, theft.

 

My advice is, sit back, take it on the chin and pay it back. I would also suggest a trip to your local Gamblers Annonymous. You will see people who have lost everything. Homes, marriages, kids and least of all money. Gambling is an addiction. One medical research actually classed it more addictive than Heroin so you can see where YOU COULD end up.

[Dave J]

I didn't think you came to this thread seeking to be judged so unlike others I won't do that. I would say that anything you did in someones name other than your own the company could not be expected to refund your losses.

 

However, if you made transactions while you were underage in your own name, and funded by your own means then I think you would have some case against the operator. After all they did not take reasonable steps to prevent a minor from funding the account. Check out the gambling regs on the net.

 

This is not advice legal or otherwise.

[RDJ]

Ok, thankyou for your advice, it's all taken on board. I appreciate it, good or bad.

 

[Isiris]

He wouldnt, in my opinion, have any recourse against the operator.

 

When you sign up to any bookmakers site, you click you agree to there terms and conditions and one of the first terms and conditions is, you are over 18. If he has, and he will have, said he is over 18, he has no recourse.

 

I notice you only come and ask how to get your money back when you have lost, not should I give it back when you won.

 

Sorry if I sound a tad aggresive on this subject but it is one I fell strongly on as this is the work i do.

[garyca]

Sorry, but if the roles were reversed and you was £3,500 in profit i'm pretty certain you wouldn't be asking to give it back because of all the deceit.

[RDJ]

Most of you responses seem to be centred around my use of my mum's credit card, and I understand why this is very wrong. Wrong of her and wrong of me. I never expected anything from this as the companies did everything that could reasonably be expected of them.

 

I also would like to point out that I have never been in debt. Everything that I have gambled and lost I can afford. All but £500 of the £3,500 that I have lost was hard money that was mine in my own bank account.

 

However, when I used Paddy Power, Bet Direct and BetFred to gamble, I did so in my own name using my own Solo card. As you all know, a solo card is widely available to under 18's. Only Paddy Power asked for any documents, and that was simply a bank statement to prove it was my card. To these three bookies I have lost over £1,100. Surely, from a legal standpoint, they were negligent to their responsibilities.

 

He wouldnt, in my opinion, have any recourse against the operator. When you sign up to any bookmakers site, you click you agree to there terms and conditions and one of the first terms and conditions is, you are over 18. If he has, and he will have, said he is over 18, he has no recourse.

 

But, surely, as Dave J stepped upon, this is not a reasonable step to prevent underage people from accessing their site, which is their responsibility. I also have accounts with eBay and PayPal – site’s which have the same ‘tick here’ boxes – and I’ve made thousands doing business there (that’s where all the money has come from!). A tick box cannot be considered a worthy way of preventing under 18’s from registering, surely?!

 

Sorry, but if the roles were reversed and you was £3,500 in profit i'm pretty certain you wouldn't be asking to give it back because of all the deceit.

 

Well of course not, that would be crazy!!! I admit to be an individual who will try to get around the system when it doesn’t suit me! Please see that I know for fact that I am morally in the wrong, I’m intelligent enough to know what I’m doing; I just came here to seek assistance on my legal standpoint. I understand that bookies cannot prevent me from gambling if I use my mother’s credit card and her identity, however, when I use my own name and card…

[Dave J]

Isiris,

 

If there is one thing this site has taught me is that terms and conditions are not the be all and end all. If a term in a contract is outside of the law then it is null and void. How can a gambling debt between a minor and a company who has a licence only to provide betting facilities to those over 18 be valid?

 

2.No person under the age of 18 may be registered. (taken from online gambling act 2001)

 

Presuming that all he had to do was lie about his date of birth i cannot see how this constitutes a reasonable effort by the provider to ensure compliance.

[Isiris]

Isiris,

 

How can a gambling debt between a minor and a company who has a licence only to provide betting facilities to those over 18 be valid?

 

 

As you say, A gambling Debt.

 

NO gambling debt is recoverable by law.

 

 

But how would an online company ensure the person is over 18. Ask them to tick a tick box to say he is, which he has. Ask him to provide ID to prove it, which he doctored. Only allow credit cards, which he used his mums in her names.

 

Im sorry, but it seems he is just trying to con the organisation. Like I said, if he was still winning, we wouldnt be having this conversation

 

 

3. Rules for registration

The following rules apply to registration under regulation 2(1)(a) —

1. No person may be registered except on an application for registration

in such form, and containing such particulars, as may be approved by

the Commissioners.

2. No person under the age of 18 may be registered.

3. Before an applicant for registration is registered, he must provide

details of —

(i) his age;

(ii) his identity and

(iii) his place of residence.

 

The above is the paragraph from the Act. My understanding would be, if the applicant entered a date in his Date of Birth that made him under 18, the site would reject his application. I have just tried Bet Direct, betfred and Paddy Power and they do.

[Rich44]

I think online gambling serioulsy needs looking at regardless of the merits or otherwise of this case here it is ridiculously easy to gamble underage on websites and the bookies or online casinos cant say well they ticked this box and thats the end of it it's not good enough. There are lots of ways of checking someones age and a check box isnt one of them

[Dave J]

No gambling debt is recoverable by law of course. But how can it be a valid gambling debt when it is between a minor and an organisation with a bookmakers licence contravening a core aspect of that licence.

 

It's well known in the industry that firms have tightened up the procedures with regard to underage users, but in the past it was entirely possible for someone with a solo or electron card to use online.

 

 

'Three of the six firms that I gambled with online accepted my Solo card without first checking whether I was over 18'

 

They also did not require ID.

 

With regard to your point about a con, i do not believe this to be the case. I'm sure he didn't go into it with the prior intention of reclaiming losses.

 

The Government have decided rightly or wrongly that those under 18 should not be able to gamble, I presume this is because under 18s are not capable of the same decisions as their elders.

 

An online gambling firm turns a blind eye to this, or refuses to dedicate sufficient resources to enforcing it (despite it being an implicit term of their licence). In my opinion the consequence of this to the gambling firm should NOT be to make a profit from said situation but rather to have to surrender all monies made and receive a firm wrist slapping for doing so.

 

I cannot agree that by returning monies owed that any bookmaker would be a legitimate victim of a 'con'.

[alanfromderby]

I would just add the following advice:

 

1) As suggested get in contact with Gamblers Anonymous.

2) Have a chat with Trading Standards, as they will be interested to know how you were able to get past the bookmakers security systems, and how they were able to seduce you into gambling so much money.

 

Whilst number one will be of great benefit to you, number two may help others to avoid getting into the same situation.

 

It is very easy for people to be judgemental in these circumstances, but this is a cycle that is very easy to get pulled into. You are not alone by any means and you will find a great deal of help and support if you seek it out. Hopefully, the bravery you have shown in posting this in a public forum will help you to move forward.

 

All the best.

[JonCris]

Isiris,

 

If there is one thing this site has taught me is that terms and conditions are not the be all and end all. If a term in a contract is outside of the law then it is null and void. How can a gambling debt between a minor and a company who has a licence only to provide betting facilities to those over 18 be valid?

 

2.No person under the age of 18 may be registered. (taken from online gambling act 2001)

 

Presuming that all he had to do was lie about his date of birth i cannot see how this constitutes a reasonable effort by the provider to ensure compliance.

 

The contract with the gambling company is not only unenforcable because he is underage but because gambling debts are not recoverable So if he owed them money they could not recover.

 

The matter of them failing to conduct proper checks or not is I suggest irrelevent at this late stage. Yes they might be critized in a court for their slack methods but that won't mitigate the offence which by all accounts was quite sophisticated & very deliberate

 

According to his own post he didn't just lie about his age did he! He set up false accounts to launder money he was or would have obtained illegaly, which is a very serious offence. The fact that he was using his own money to place the bets does not exempt him from the Proceeds of Crime Act act. The fact that he was transferring/using funds for illegal purposes meant the monies & the deed fall within the act

 

Also I guarantee if he attempts to claim he will cause real grief for his parents particularly his mother as the card company will almost certainley become involved & they will probably cancel her card & demand payment of any outstanding balance.

 

Yes there are a number of legal matters regarding his relationship with these companies which he might win but for his mother it's a lose, lose situation. The effect on her financial standing could be tremendous. He needs to be very careful about causing any further damage & that what concerns me not whether or not he can get one over on these companies for their slack security.

 

I for one are not sitting in judgment on this person but I consider it irresponsible to encourge this person to pursue these companies on the basis that they should have known better when it could have the effects I refer to above.

 

If he intends to pursue this course of action he needs to seek legal advice from a qualified lawyer who I suspect will say precisley what has already been stated. In a nutshell "Don't draw attention to your illegal conduct"

[Dave J]

I'm sorry if i am not making myself clear. I believe that the three firms with which he did not forge any documents and bet in his own name should not be entitled to profit from his losses. I would not suggest any further action be taken where he has forged documents or bet on his mums card.

[Dave J]

'According to his own post he didn't just lie about his age did he!'

 

This is exactly what he did in three cases btw.

[Movingon]

@*

[Isiris]

Im really struggling to understand why anyone can attempt to blame the bookmakers. I am not saying they are angels but, again, WE WOULD NOT BE DISCUSSING THIS IF THE OP HAD WON.

 

The bookies are in a no win situation. A general customer like myself who is made to jump through hoops to open an account just wont do it. There has to be a status quo with regards KYC (Know Your Customer) and ease of use for the site and its prospective customers.

 

Irrespective of his age, he knew exactly what he was doing when he attempted to open his account and stated he was over 18. Just because he isnt 18, does not meen he is not responsible for a crime.

 

I personally would keep quiet about it and not ruffle feather. Remember, while they are in competition with each other, they will share information about you if they believe a crime has been commited, and I think you have commited 3 and your mum 2.

[caro]

Well of course not, that would be crazy!!! I admit to be an individual who will try to get around the system when it doesn’t suit me! Please see that I know for fact that I am morally in the wrong, I’m intelligent enough to know what I’m doing; I just came here to seek assistance on my legal standpoint. I understand that bookies cannot prevent me from gambling if I use my mother’s credit card and her identity, however, when I use my own name and card…

 

Intelligent enough, maybe, but legally you are a minor and your parents responsibility. I have kids your age so I don't want to judge, and where your Mum has given permission it seems that she is in the wrong, as she should not be allowing you to use her card.

 

Your parents could try the companies where you used your own card, on your behalf, and I think AlanfromDerby is on the right lines with Trading Standards and GA.

 

One other word of caution. If you are making a lot of money on ebay I hope that you are keeping good records of your income, as income is subject to Income Tax, and the authorities look out for people who make a lot of money there.

 

You are clearly a very bright young man(?). Why don't you channel your intelligence in a more productive and legal way. I don't know if you are working or studying but I think you have a bright future. Seems to me you could do very well in legitimate business with your enterprising ideas.

[Dave J]

The bookies are in a no win situation.

 

Of course they are and should be, if they allow people under the age of 18 to gamble then they should not be able to profit under ANY circumstances. I'm fully aware of KYC procedures and the current courses of action they take to prevent under age betting.

 

But, once again this was not the case in the past. They neglected it and should pay the full price as a result.

[Isiris]

They have not allowed someone who is underage to gamble. They have asked his age, he has said he is 18 or over and they have accepted his application.

 

If he had deposited and then been asked for ID he would have only provided fake documents to support his application which he admits to having had done in the past so no preventative measures by the bookmakers would have prevented him losing as he would have worked his way around it.

 

I have worked in bookmaking/gaming/gambling environments for over 17 years and unfortunately, there is always someone out to make a cheap buck with some [problem] or another and the jo public just say, oh its the bookie, they deserve it/can afford it. Well I dont subscribe to that. They are running a legitamite business and as part of the online application, he has had to say he is over 18.

[JonCris]

'According to his own post he didn't just lie about his age did he!'

 

This is exactly what he did in three cases btw.

 

Yes & that's what I'm saying He didn't JUST lie

[monkey_uk]

They have not allowed someone who is underage to gamble. They have asked his age, he has said he is 18 or over and they have accepted his application.

 

If a minor went to a pub and attempted to buy alcoholic beverages, when asked her age, if she said 18, and the barman served her, even though she is only 16, does this make the establishments and possibly the barman immune from prosecution? No, it doesn't. It'd be a bit of ammunition to aid his arguement, but IMHO and in my experiece, it wouldn't stand up in court.

 

If she produced a fake proof of age, then this is a different matter.

 

The same principle, IMHO, applies in this case.

 

 

---

 

The OP really needs to get this problem sorted out. He won't think it is a problem, he will think he has it controlled, but the temptation will ALWAYS be there. Yes, you've only lost money that you had (and for a kid, that is a lot of money to have, but that is beside the point, fair play to him!) but think about what you COULD HAVE done with that money...bought a car...part of a deposit for a house....and so on...

 

 

When te temptation is there, no matter what the odds, and where it is a "dead cert", just remember how you'll feel when you lose. You will lose.

 

You are almost certain never to see a poor bookie, and trust me, I know ;-)

 

Best of luck to the OP in doing whatever he feels is right.

 

We shouldn't be judging him, I might or might not agree with what he is trying to do, but what he's doing his is parrogative, so lets just do what we do best and help him in any way we can hey?!