Vehicle title problems! Who owns the vehicle

[austin8]

Hello to CAG

 

I am looking for advise on the "vehicle title"

 

I was having troble selling my car, usnig the standard means (papers, auto trader etc)

 

The only enquire was from a trader offering to sell on my behalf, which seemed to be the best option.

 

I entered a "sale or return contract" with agreed value of £10500. I informed the trader that i had approx £8k of hire purchase outstanding on the car (this is not on the contract). And this needed to be paid before the car was released.

 

The trader is a limited company which i took to be usable, and he agreed to cover the HP before the car was released.

 

I contacted the trader every week for a status, and was allways told the vehicle was not sold. After 3 months i was in the area i decided to look at the car. It was not there!

 

The trader didnot tell me the car was sold, i asked him where was the vehicle and he just stated it was gone! So i asked for payment, got told i would recieve in two weeks, I was sent £300 no letter explaning the differnce, i contatced the HP company, this wasnt paid either!

 

I have been paying the HP all the time.

 

I have since contatced the police stating the car has been stolen (as it had been taken from the finace company without there permission). As the trader sold the car to a thirdparty who insured the car, the police quickley traced the car and seized the vehilce.

 

It appears the trader sold the car for £14000 to the third party (who brought in good faith), who paid by check and recieved a reciept, they did not recieve the V5 form or request a HPI check. (this is what the police have passed on)

 

So who owns the vehicle?

 

The police have been holding the vehicle for over a month now because they cannot decide. The trader has applied for liquidator to wind his company up.

 

If the thrid party ownes the vehicle, is the HP void as that is what the agreement is based on?

 

If i own the vehilce can i sell it? (after settling the HP)

 

in both cases as the trader is in debt and cannot pay, is there a trade governing body that would pay, as they are there to stop such things happening! they failed! they are at fault as well. The trader has done this kind of thing dozens of time before! (yes it true and he can carry on trading, not a criminal in the eyes of the police)

 

How long can the police keep the vehicle. the vehilce can be used and enjoyed by both myself or the third party(who ever owns the rights), why are the police depriving victims?

 

Thatnsk to any replies that come.

[austin8]

Vehicle title problems! Who owns the vehicle

Hello to CAG

 

I am looking for advise on the "vehicle title"

 

I was having troble selling my car, usnig the standard means (papers, auto trader etc)

 

The only enquire was from a trader offering to sell on my behalf, which seemed to be the best option.

 

I entered a "sale or return contract" with agreed value of £10500. I informed the trader that i had approx £8k of hire purchase outstanding on the car (this is not on the contract). And this needed to be paid before the car was released.

 

The trader is a limited company which i took to be usable, and he agreed to cover the HP before the car was released.

 

I contacted the trader every week for a status, and was allways told the vehicle was not sold. After 3 months i was in the area i decided to look at the car. It was not there!

 

The trader didnot tell me the car was sold, i asked him where was the vehicle and he just stated it was gone! So i asked for payment, got told i would recieve in two weeks, I was sent £300 no letter explaning the differnce, i contatced the HP company, this wasnt paid either!

 

I have been paying the HP all the time.

 

I have since contatced the police stating the car has been stolen (as it had been taken from the finace company without there permission). As the trader sold the car to a thirdparty who insured the car, the police quickley traced the car and seized the vehilce.

 

It appears the trader sold the car for £14000 to the third party (who brought in good faith), who paid by check and recieved a reciept, they did not recieve the V5 form or request a HPI check. (this is what the police have passed on)

 

So who owns the vehicle?

 

The police have been holding the vehicle for over a month now because they cannot decide. The trader has applied for liquidator to wind his company up.

 

If the thrid party ownes the vehicle, is the HP void as that is what the agreement is based on?

 

If i own the vehilce can i sell it? (after settling the HP)

 

in both cases as the trader is in debt and cannot pay, is there a trade governing body that would pay, as they are there to stop such things happening! they failed! they are at fault as well. The trader has done this kind of thing dozens of time before! (yes it true and he can carry on trading, not a criminal in the eyes of the police)

 

How long can the police keep the vehicle. the vehilce can be used and enjoyed by both myself or the third party(who ever owns the rights), why are the police depriving victims?

 

Thanks to any replies that come.:grin:

[raydetinu]

The HP company owns the vehicle, but you are its keeper and if the HP company agrees you can sell it and repay the settlement.

I pressume you have been keeping up payments on loan.

You cannot sell it without HP company agreemet!

[austin8]

So why will the police not release the vehicle? How can you speed up the police? They will not say how owns the vehicle!

 

All HP payments have been made, but I informed the HP company, that tomorrows paymant is canceled, and will not be making payments until the vehicle is returned.

 

Any guidance on proving to the police, that yhey should release the vehicle to me?

 

Thanks

[Tawnyowl]

Hi Austin-feel you should try the DVLA FORUM JUST GO UP TO SEARCH AND TYPE dvla in it-theres some clued up people on there who may help-they helped me-good luck Tawnyowl.Maybe if theres a site helper about they will move it there if they feel its the right place.Oh by the way welcome to the CAG-Great place to be.

[patdavies]

Do not cancel your payments on the HP agreement - at best you will only muddy the waters and start off a whole new sidetrack involving defaults etc.

 

The Police should only release the vehicle to the owner - and that is the HP company. It will be for the HP company to prove ownership; you will have to prompt them to claim and collect the vehicle (and then return it to you) and give them the Police details (ie Officer name and station). If the Police are obstructive, then the HP co. may need to get a court order to release the vehicle..

 

The 'new' owner has no claim on the vehicle or you. He must reclaim his money from the dealer.

 

Have you made any written statement to the Police and are they considering prosecution of the dealer?

[austin8]

Hi

 

Thanks for the reply,

 

I have canceled HP payments, the first defaulted payment is today, I suppose 1 missed payment after seven years unfaulted agreement, is not my biggest concern. Having to pay back the money for a car for the next 5 years is, which I my have no right to. And i can still make a late payment.

 

It seems the police are not interested in the dealer, i made a statement, but it is very brief, ie 1/2 page.

 

So how do prompt (HP company) them to claim and collect the vehicle as they dont seen in a hurry either?

 

Thanks

[austin8]

Would the police allow me to inspect the vehicle?

 

If the police are prosecuting the dealer, should the police informed me, or should i ask?

[austin8]

I am looking for advise on the "vehicle title"

 

I was having troble selling my car, usnig the standard means (papers, auto trader etc)

 

The only enquire was from a trader offering to sell on my behalf, which seemed to be the best option.

 

I entered a "sale or return contract" with agreed value of £10500. I informed the trader that i had approx £8k of hire purchase outstanding on the car (this is not on the contract). And this needed to be paid before the car was released.

 

The trader is a limited company which i took to be usable, and he agreed to cover the HP before the car was released.

 

I contacted the trader every week for a status, and was allways told the vehicle was not sold. After 3 months i was in the area i decided to look at the car. It was not there!

 

The trader didnot tell me the car was sold, i asked him where was the vehicle and he just stated it was gone! So i asked for payment, got told i would recieve in two weeks, I was sent £300 no letter explaning the differnce, i contatced the HP company, this wasnt paid either!

 

I have been paying the HP all the time.

 

I have since contatced the police stating the car has been stolen (as it had been taken from the finace company without there permission). As the trader sold the car to a thirdparty who insured the car, the police quickley traced the car and seized the vehilce.

 

It appears the trader sold the car for £14000 to the third party (who brought in good faith), who paid by check and recieved a reciept, they did not recieve the V5 form or request a HPI check. (this is what the police have passed on)

 

So who owns the vehicle?

 

The police have been holding the vehicle for over a month now because they cannot decide. The trader has applied for liquidator to wind his company up.

 

If the thrid party ownes the vehicle, is the HP void as that is what the agreement is based on?

 

If i own the vehilce can i sell it? (after settling the HP)

 

in both cases as the trader is in debt and cannot pay, is there a trade governing body that would pay, as they are there to stop such things happening! they failed! they are at fault as well. The trader has done this kind of thing dozens of time before! (yes it true and he can carry on trading, not a criminal in the eyes of the police)

 

How long can the police keep the vehicle. the vehilce can be used and enjoyed by both myself or the third party(who ever owns the rights), why are the police depriving victims?

 

Would the police allow me to inspect the vehicle?

 

If the police are prosecuting the dealer, should the police informed me, or should i ask?

 

Thanks to any replies that come.

[ukaviator]

Threads merged, please keep to one thread on the same subject..

[austin8]

From the police - the vehicle is owned by the third party?

 

Does anybody know if that make the HP void?

 

The police has told the third party to re register into there name??

 

Thanks

[tinkerbell20]

From the police - the vehicle is owned by the third party?

 

Does anybody know if that make the HP void?

 

The police has told the third party to re register into there name??

 

Thanks

 

 

Well the police are wrong. The HP company is the legal owner

[raydetinu]

They cant re-register it as you still have V5, I hope! contact DVLA and explain situation so they cant get it registered.

You need to discuss this situation with the HP company pronto as they have lost a car? or have they? I pressume they think you still have it and indeed you are responsible for it! As you entered into a contract with the garage, without the HP companies knowledge or agreement, I think they will expect you to keep paying until the matter is resolved.

The HP company will want its money one way or another. If the new (owner) cant register it they cant insure or tax it, so it will have to be resolved one way or another. Looks like a court battle looming!

[austin8]

Police have told the third party to request a V5 from the DVLA, we still have the V5, but if you can by vehilce form the auctions with out a V5, and apply for one later.

 

I have informed the HP company, once we found the vehicle, and got the police to seize it. I spoke agian this morning to them, I dont think they have looked onto the matter.

 

What type of court battle, am I going to have to take the third party to court, to claim the vehicle back, on the behalf of the HP company?

[raydetinu]

My understanding, recent cahanges, that you cannot get an updated V5 without the seller portion of your V5 being completed and attached to the application.

You really must speak to the DVLA.

Another point has or is the Tax due to run out as you will be liable for that as the registered keeper!

I think, now you may to consult a solicitor on this, is that as you entered into a contract with the garage to sell the car, which they did, only they did not give you the money, you may have to sue them! they have your money; the car was not misappropriated or stolen and then fraudulently sold. See what the HP co. says. not good though.

[surfaceagentx20]

In my view the third party has become the owner of the vehicle.

 

My reasoning goes like this:

 

You entered into an agreement with the trader by which he had your authority to sell the car. In coure of time the trader found a purchaser who I understand is a private individual. This individual bought the car.

 

In buying the car, the individual either [1] bought direct from the trader or [2] from the trader as your agent. In terms of law [1] would be a purchase which carried the protection of section 27(3) Hire Purchase Act 1974 and [2] would be a purchase which carrried the protection of section 27(2).

 

The vast majority of the HP Act has been repealed but this section has been retained for the protedction of individuals acquiring cars in good faith for value. You say the third party bought in good fasith paying £14,000.00 for it.

 

Either way, in my opinion, the disposal of the car to this third party who appears to be buying in good faith and for value, is a disposition carrying the protection of section 27.

 

Here's section 27 in all its glory:

 

27. Protection of purchasers of motor vehicles.

(1) This section applies where a motor vehicle has been bailed or (in Scotland) hired under a hire-purchase agreement, or has been agreed to be sold under a conditional sale agreement, and, before the property in the vehicle has become vested in the debtor, he disposes of the vehicle to another person.

 

(2) Where the disposition referred to in subsection (1) above is to a private purchaser, and he is a purchaser of the motor vehicle in good faith without notice of the hire-purchase or conditional sale agreement (the “relevant agreement”) that disposition shall have effect as if the creditor’s title to the vehicle has been vested in the debtor immediately before that disposition.

 

(3) Where the person to whom the disposition referred to in subsection (1) above is made (the “original purchaser”) is a trade or finance purchaser, then if the person who is the first private purchaser of the motor vehicle after that disposition (the “first private purchaser”) is a purchaser of the vehicle in good faith without notice of the relevant agreement, the disposition of the vehicle to the first private purchaser shall have effect as if the title of the creditor to the vehicle had been vested in the debtor immediately before he disposed of it to the original purchaser.

 

(4) Where, in a case within subsection (3) above

(a)the disposition by which the first private purchaser becomes a purchaser of the motor vehicle in good faith without notice of the relevant agreement is itself a bailment or hiring under a hire-purchase agreement, and

(b)the person who is the creditor in relation to that agreement disposes of the vehicle to the first private purchaser, or a person claiming under him, by transferring to him the property in the vehicle in pursuance of a provision in the agreement in that behalf,

the disposition referred to in paragraph (b) above (whether or not the person to whom it is made is a purchaser in good faith without notice of the relevant agreement) shall as well as the disposition referred to in paragraph (a) above, have effect as mentioned in sub-section (3) above.

 

(5) The preceding provisions of this section apply

(a)notwithstanding anything in [section 21 of the M1 Sale of Goods Act 1979](sale of goods by a person not the owner), but

(b)without prejudice to the provisions of the Factors Acts (as defined by [section 61(1) of the said Act of 1979] or of any other enactment enabling the apparent owner of goods to dispose of them as if he were the true owner.

 

(6) Nothing in this section shall exonerate the debtor from any liability (whether criminal or civil) to which he would be subject apart from this section; and, in a case where the debtor disposes of the motor vehicle to a trade or finance purchaser, nothing in this section shall exonerate

(a)that trade or finance purchaser, or

(b)any other trade or finance purchaser who becomes a purchaser of the vehicle and is not a person claiming under the first private purchaser,

from any liability (whether criminal of civil) to which he would be subject apart from this section.

 

x20

[austin8]

So if the third party owns the car, the HP company has to transfer the title?

 

What will happen with the HP agreement, as only they can pass the title, and that would end the agreemnet? Would that pass in a court? Or do i have to pay the finance in full? Or will the trader have to pay the HP? (who is declaring himself bankrupt

 

Thanks for the reply x20 very detailed

[raydetinu]

I really feel for you, quite a mess!

The third party own the car, but you have the V5 so they cant tax it, but you will get the tax or sorn demand. they may have to takke you to court to get the V5?

The HP co. will want the money, as they cant have the car.

You need to contact and resolve with the HP co. and/or get legal advice.

[patdavies]

I really feel for you, quite a mess!

The third party own the car, but you have the V5 so they cant tax it, but you will get the tax or sorn demand. they may have to takke you to court to get the V5?

The HP co. will want the money, as they cant have the car.

You need to contact and resolve with the HP co. and/or get legal advice.

 

No. the new owner simply applies for a V5.

 

As Austin8 is shown on the DVLA system as the RK and not the new owner, then DVLA will write to Austin8 before issuing. If they receive no reply to their letter to Austin8, they will issue the new V5. DVLA will not get involved in ownership issues - they don't care, they are only interested in the RK

 

My understanding, recent cahanges, that you cannot get an updated V5 without the seller portion of your V5 being completed and attached to the application.

No. Otherwise, if you lose the V5, it is lost for ever.... Remember, the V5 is nothing to do with ownership.

 

If the new (owner) cant register it they cant insure or tax it, so it will have to be resolved one way or another.

There is no requirement to even be the RK to insure - you dom't need a V5, As to VED, you only need the V5 number to tax it on-line.

[austin8]

So, now we know the legal owner, will they have to apply to the finance company to become the legal owner?

 

If the finance company give the title of the vehilce away, surly they give away any right to the outstanding finance? As that the purpose of a secured loan!

[surfaceagentx20]

The finance company have not given anything away.

 

The third party acquired title to the car by statutory provision; not by some implied contract between the finance company and the third party.

 

Read sub-section (6) again, which I repeat below:

 

(6) Nothing in this section shall exonerate the debtor from any liability (whether criminal or civil) to which he would be subject apart from this section; and, in a case where the debtor disposes of the motor vehicle to a trade or finance purchaser, nothing in this section shall exonerate

(a)that trade or finance purchaser, or

(b)any other trade or finance purchaser who becomes a purchaser of the vehicle and is not a person claiming under the first private purchaser, from any liability (whether criminal of civil) to which he would be subject apart from this section.

 

x20

[austin8]

So what you saying,

 

1 the new owner is the owner (fair to them, they have done nothing wrong, from my point of view)

 

2 The finace company will take me to court and force me to pay the finance off, thats was spossed to be a secured loan! (not fair, i have done no wrong)

 

3 The trader, has spend the money, has gone into volentry liquidation, will not be allowed to be a director again, get to right all hs debts off (40 other vehicle sold and not paid for!), and have a fresh start.

 

So I have to accept this, and pay the finance off?

[surfaceagentx20]

In a nutshell ,yes.

 

Any claim by the finance company will not so much be about about any wrongdoing, but about their rights and how the disposal of the vehicle in the circumstances you have described and in combination with the Act has resulted in them ceasing to be the owner of it.

 

The claim may be for more than the finance owing on it, though I would expect them to settle for that sort of figure. I say this because there is good evidence that the vehicle in question and which they owned on the day it was sold to the third party had a market value on that day of £14,000.00.

 

I am certain that your involvement in all of this is as a victim too, but the remedy available to you is to pursue the trader, which by all accounts will not bear fruit.

 

People should be extremely wary about releasing vehicles not owned by them and subject to finance, to traders with actual or ostensible authority to sell that vehicle on their behalf.

[raydetinu]

Yep agree you must deal with HP company and come to some arrangement, preferably without them having to go to court.

 

Pat- DVLA will only issue V5 to registered keeper on the existing V5 if lost; you need the seller portion signed to change Keeper; so if you have lost your V5 and want to sell your car you must first get a new one.

[austin8]

The owner is the police, since the last notes,

 

The police still have the vehicle, as if what is said is true, everybody in debt with HP can simply sell there vehicle and the new owner will have the right to the vehicle!

 

No when you purchase a vehilce, it is the purchasers responsability to check the vehicle is for sale, even if buying off a forecourt!

 

If you do not check, and the legal takes the vehicle, theres nothing you can do.

 

Thanks