Help! Nationwide Debt Recovery NOTIFICATION OF INSTRUCTION TO PROCEED help needed!!!

[ODC]

How old is the account. It seems strange that Littlewoods aka NDR would have anything resembling a valid CCA

[Guest forgottenone]

Yeah, I know. Unfortunately, they got me to refinance the account ... last year ... or it would have turned 6 this year. I can repost a blank copy of what they sent me ... just to make doubly sure? Apart from that, is it too late to SAR for charges? And should I now be expecting a CCJ?

[Guest forgottenone]

In fact, will need to dig it out again, but will repost it soon ... there was something about it looked 'wrong' but couldn't put my finger on it. I know a few here said it was 'enforceable' but think time to get another opinion ... in case anything is missed. It seemed to have the prescribed terms, but ... on the basis of what many are saying here related to Littlewoods eg 'valid CCA' will make sure this time.

 

I should also say that, I only refinanced because Littlewoods never explored any other options ... like they would anyway, of course ... at the time, before I even began to look up consumer advice back then; I didn't know what I could do etc. Just relied on what they told me ... know better now of course. And again this year, they've tried to refinance it ... even tried to trick me into saying 'yes' on the phone ... . ... armed with more knowledge that time I never fell for it. Ended up me telling the person concerned to get lost. Slammed phone down.

 

If nothing else I have learned DCA's are thoroughly deceitful.

[Guest forgottenone]

Okay, try again. Also for the possible benefit of another user unable to scan their own if it helps them. This is an exact *blank* copy of what was sent in response to my CCA request. Which is apparently enforceable. I have a some further questions which have just been jogged whilst scanning them regarding some of the wording, will point those out further down:

 

 

 

This part was on a separate sheet eg not overleaf.

 

 

Bringing me to my questions regarding this section particularly:

 

 

With relevence to bullet points *unable to highlight as it's scanned* 2, 4, 5

 

Unless I got this totally wrong, I was under the impression this would either be unlawful/against OFT guideliness for fair collection of debt? Point 5 for example? I thought any creditor could not charge you any fees for transferring to a DCA? Or have I misinterpreted this? I know I am clutching at straws here ... looking for anything on this CCA which may mean it's unenforceable. If possible.

 

Also, whilst it refers to default fees eg late payments, these are not mentioned in the actual CCA itself. I thought they had to be? Yet, underneath it says I have to contact them to get these details. Not exactly easily accessed then, ie written in to the CCA upfront?

 

Presently, they are charging £12 per missed payment which appears on each statement. Statements now come from NDR directly, look like they have been produced on photocopied BW paper. But the exact amount is not mentioned anywhere on the CCA. Does it need to be?

 

If I am correct - and I don't begin to assume I am but, like I said, being very hopeful, clutching at straws - in the wording in the KEY INFORMATION section can I remind them of this, what info would I need to do so?

 

And does the fact that there is a separate sheet mean it's not all 'contained within the four corners' of the CCA? Again, apologies if I am clutching at straws but getting desperate now given more recent activity.

 

Thanks very much in advance to anyone who can help.

Edited July 14, 2008 by forgottenone

[Guest forgottenone]

Okay, rejigged the size a little as were too wide and gone out of focus slightly.

[Guest forgottenone]

Anyone? Just living in hope ... which is literally all I have right now.

[ODC]

I cannot see the prescribed terms anywhere

[Guest forgottenone]

Ah, so was I right?? My suspiscion? It wasn't correctly drawn up? If not, then that means they haven't supplied as requested? Sorry, if am jumping the gun.

 

Edit - gotta go. Just got hit with massive chest pain. Will read tomorrow.

[Dipply75]

After reading through what they have done I would seriously consider making a complaint about the loan being mis-sold. They sold you a loan to pay of arrears you were struggling with (am I right?) - they are not allowed to encourage further borrowing to pay of a debt, and it is this exact argument that I got the bank to clear my mis-sold loan.

 

If thats right, send the SAR and make a complaint to Littlewoods themselves first and exhaust their official complaints procedure - then send it to the FOS.

 

I should still have the letter I sent to the bank which seemed to rattle them as it may help, which BTW did not rely on the whole bank charges argument, it was a mis-selling complaint. They got me to take a new loan to pay off a debt, made me think I had no other choice. In the end they wiped the new loan and applied any payments I had made to the old loan and we took it from there.

 

Really hope ODC can point out flaws in the agreement cause I just don't know about that sorry!

[Guest forgottenone]

Just sneaked back upstairs, can't stay off here lately, especially late at night ... passed off, as usual, get them a lot lately but that was pretty bad. Anyway, hi D75.

 

Yes, you are correct re 'struggling' and being sold another, with a LARGE whack of interest bearing charges up front almost doubling what it was originally. I remember reading something about that in the OFT guidelines one day, was never sure how to go about using it.

 

Your letter would be fantastic. However, as I don't want to give them forewarning etc ... would you be able to PM it me? I can try and repay the favour one day if I can help. Will also SAR them.

[Dipply75]

You are now a CAG addict lol, but thats cool, me too!

 

No repayment ever needed, stopping these muppets doing this to folk is all I need. Will dig it out and send to you no probs. Don't get me wrong, they still tried the "but at the end of the day, you signed and you are responsible for your own borrowing blah blah" but i just kept repeating THEIR responsibilities, the law and guidelines and challenged them to confirm in writing that they complied with all - for the FOS etc, they backed down.

 

Apart from that, you ok?

[Guest forgottenone]

So, these prescribed terms, then? My time limit for the Default was up today.

[Guest forgottenone]

Think I found my answer on another thread ...

 

The prescribed terms specified in Sch 6 are as follows:

 

* amount of credit – see Q8.

 

* credit limit – see Q8.5

* repayments – see Q8.9.

* rate of interest – see Q8.6

 

From what I can see of the copy in front of me they are there.

 

Amount of Credit

Duration of the Agreement

Total Amount Payable

Repayments

APR 39.9%

Edited July 15, 2008 by forgottenone

[babybear39]

Report them to TS and the OFT for breaching guidlines by sugessting you pay by credit card:

 

Physical/psychological harassment

2.5 Putting pressure on debtors or third parties is considered to be oppressive.

2.6 Examples of unfair practices are as follows:

a. contacting debtors at unreasonable times and at unreasonable intervals

b. pressurising debtors to sell property, to raise funds by further

borrowing or to extend their borrowing

 

SAR to reclaim any charges.

[ODC]

Think I found my answer on another thread ...

 

The prescribed terms specified in Sch 6 are as follows:

 

* amount of credit – see Q8.

 

* credit limit – see Q8.5

* repayments – see Q8.9.

* rate of interest – see Q8.6

 

From what I can see of the copy in front of me they are there.

 

Amount of Credit

Duration of the Agreement

Total Amount Payable

Repayments

APR 39.9%

Did they actually quote any figures for these

[Guest forgottenone]

Hi, went out so back in now. Blanked out the figures in case they could ID me from them. Decided on plan of action. Will SAR them, cos there's gonna be a hefty whack of charges on this account ... going back six years at various times when payments were missed ... which, unless I got this wrong, are included in the balance from the original account excluding the interest they added up front so either way those charges are part of that figure ... whether I am right or not would need more advice ... but the account as it was previously was almost all made up of charges through missing payments, not regularly but here and there. Which in that case, I'd imagine at least half that figure or possibly more would possibly vanish if I claimed them back.

 

So, hypothetically then, would that mean I could still SAR for 6 years statements or would that just be from when the new loan was taken out?

 

Then, will wait for D75 ... who I am more than grateful to because my head's such a mess right now with other worries, finding it really hard even to put together a letter when I don't normally. And argue that as well.

 

Oh, and report them TS, OFT.

[Guest forgottenone]

Actually, been thinking again ... going back to the default charges. And the fact it doesn't given any eg rate/cost per, and you've got to ask the creditor separately. Shouldn't they actually be written in to the agreement ie £12 per missed payment, letter issued? Purely in order to be seen acting fairly so the person signing the agreement can see up front what they are? Also, saying they can more or less change them when they like by using the terminology 'variable' so ... they could charge me £12 one day, next time may be some ridiculous amount of £100 for late payment. Seems to be they are 'hidden' charges? As not specified in the agreement. If I got that utterly wrong, am barking up wrong tree etc.

[ODC]

All the figures should have been on the agreement

[Guest forgottenone]

Including the late fees? Well, certainly aren't if so. Is that something I could use here? And would it come under 'prescribed terms?'

[ODC]

Send them this

 

Dear Cretins,

 

 

Account no xxxxxxxxxxxxxx

ACCOUNT IN DISPUTE

 

 

Re: my request under the Consumer Credit Act 1974

 

 

Thank you for your letter dated **********, the contents of which are noted

 

You attention is drawn to the fact that this account is subject to a serious dispute. On xx/xx/2007 I requested DCA NAME supply me a copy of the credit agreement covering this account pursuant to the Consumer Credit Act 1974 section 78. To date DCA NAME have failed to comply with my request and have totally ignored my written reminders sent via recorded delivery of this fact. Without production of the said agreement I am unable to assess if I am indeed liable for any alleged debt to you or DCA NAME, nor does it give me any chance to evaluate whether any original agreement was ‘properly executed’ as required by the Consumer Credit Act 1974

 

 

For the avoidance of any doubt I have included section 78(1) and 78(6) of the Consumer Credit Act 1974, which states…

 

78 Duty to give information to debtor under running-account credit agreement

(1) The creditor under a regulated agreement for running-account credit, within the prescribed period after receiving a request in writing to that effect from the debtor and payment of a fee of [£1], shall give the debtor a copy of the executed agreement (if any) and of any other document referred to in it, together with a statement signed by or on behalf of the creditor showing, according to the information to which it is practicable for him to refer,—

(a) the state of the account, and

(b) the amount, if any, currently payable under the agreement by the debtor to the creditor, and

© the amounts and due dates of any payments which, if the debtor does not draw further on the account, will later become payable under the agreement by the debtor to the creditor.

(6) If the creditor under an agreement fails to comply with subsection (1)—

(a) he is not entitled, while the default continues, to enforce the agreement; and

(b) if the default continues for one month he commits an offence.

 

 

 

Clearly as no agreement was supplied on request, this in no way complies with the requirements of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 and I now draw your attention to section 78 subsection 6 which states If the creditor under an agreement fails to comply with subsection (1) he is not entitled, while the default continues, to enforce the agreement;

 

Clearly this is a situation as described in s78(6) Consumer Credit Act 1974 and the debt is unenforceable at this time. In addition, I draw your attention to section 127 (3) Consumer Credit Act 1974 which states

 

127(3) The court shall not make an enforcement order under section 65(1) if section 61(1)(a)(signing of agreements) was not complied with unless a document (whether or not in the prescribed form and complying with regulations under section 60(1)) itself containing all the prescribed terms of the agreement was signed by the debtor or hirer (whether or not in the prescribed manner).

 

This is backed by case law from the Lords of Appeal in Ordinary (House of Lords) the highest court in the land. Your attention is drawn to the authority of the House of Lords in Wilson-v- FCT [2003] All ER (D) 187 (Jul) which confirms that where a document does not contain the required terms under the consumer credit act 1974 the agreement cannot be enforced.

 

 

To clarify s61(1) states

 

(1)A regulated agreement is not properly executed unless—

 

(a) a document in the prescribed form itself containing all the prescribed terms and conforming to regulations under section 60(1) is signed in the prescribed manner both by the debtor or hirer and by or on behalf of the creditor or owner, and

(b) the document embodies all the terms of the agreement, other than implied terms, and

© The document is, when presented or sent to the debtor or hirer for signature, in such a state that all its terms are readily legible

 

In addition the prescribed terms referred to in section 60 CCA1974 are contained in schedule 6 column 2 of the Consumer Credit (Agreements) Regulations 1983 (SI 1983/1553) and are inter alia: - A term stating the credit limit or the manner in which it will be determined or that there is no credit limit, A term stating the rate of any interest on the credit to be provided under the agreement and A term stating how the debtor is to discharge his obligations under the agreement to make the repayments, which may be expressed by reference to a combination of any of the following—

 

1.Number of repayments;

2.Amount of repayments;

3.Frequency and timing of repayments;

4.Dates of repayments;

5.The manner in which any of the above may be determined; or in any other way, and any power of the creditor to vary what is payable

 

 

Therefore based upon the Consumer Credit Act 1974 this debt as it stands is unenforceable and should this proceed to litigation, a court is precluded from making an enforcement order under section 127(3) unless a true copy of the signed agreement is produced.

 

At the point where this account entered into the default situation as described in s78 (6) CCA 1974 no other charges are allowed to be added until such time as DCA NAME become compliant with my request. As DCA NAME are still not in compliance with my request I insist that the following takes place with immediate effect

• All charges levied since ******** 2007 be removed from the account and further charges cease until such time as ******* comply fully with my original request or such time as a court makes an enforcement order
  
• All entries which refer to missed payments be removed from my credit file
  
• All collection activities by your company cease with immediate effect until ******** comply with my request from ********* 2007 or such time as a court makes an enforcement order
  

In addition, I draw your attention to the Office of Fair Trading’s guidance on debt collection

 

The OFT guidance which was issued July 2003 (updated December 2006) relating to debt collections and what the OFT considers unfair, I have enclosed an excerpt from page 5 of the guidance which states

 

2.6 Examples of unfair practices are as follows:

 

h. Ignoring and/or disregarding claims that debts have been settled or are disputed and continuing to make unjustified demands for payment

 

What I Require.

 

I require that you send me a true copy of the executed agreement as required by the Consumer Credit Act 1974. If you are unable to supply the requested documentation because no such agreement is in existence I require written clarification as such.

 

I require that you comply with my request within 7 days of the date of this letter. I will not correspond any further with you until I either receive a copy of the requested documents as laid down in section 78(1) CCA 74 or clarification that such agreement doesn’t exist. I am advised that should you persist in pursuing this debt ignoring the above information you will be in breach of the Administration of Justice Act 1970 section 40 as well

 

No other correspondence will be accepted

 

Should you attempt litigation it will be vigorously defended and the failure to supply documentation under the CCA 1974 is a complete defence to any legal action and your actions will be vexatious and unlawful

 

 

I trust this out lines the situation

 

Regards

[Dipply75]

Haha, letter is excellent ODC, think I may have to use that one myself.

 

That letter should put NDR in their place then you can start your complaint direct to Littlewoods. Will pm you today

[Guest forgottenone]

Wonderful, ODC. You're fantastic. Will get that off soon as I can. Thanks, again, D75. One more thing, although may not matter ... the copy of the agreement they returned was signed by me ... or appeared to be ... but, not by them, as the signature on the copy is clearly an reproduced/electronic one. But, guessing that won't matter, really without every prescribed term being included.

[Guest forgottenone]

Just realized I may have confused everyone inadvertently in my thread here. Just to clarify, Littlewoods sent me back what appears to have been signed by me ... eg the CCA, a blanked out copy I posted here of course ... so, even though I have signed whatever this document is ... if not properly executed/worded ... it doesn't matter regardless? As what I signed wouldn't be considered 'valid' without those terms eg default figures written in?

 

Not doubting anyone, please don't think I am, but wasn't sure if I made myself clearer than I should; just been reading back through the thread and it kind of darted about between DN's and then the CCA they supplied. And I forgot to mention I had signed what they returned ... which was also a copy, not the original BTW. Apparently, after reading CAG, they don't have to send the original to me? But, how do I know in that event it hasn't been copied onto the document? Just thinking through some other things. Cos it was an obvious photocopy, fax even printed off a server somewhere. Just double checking before I send that letter.

 

You'll have to excuse me, just my health gets in the way ... really badly currently ... of what I need to communicate, say.

Edited July 16, 2008 by forgottenone

[Guest forgottenone]

I know the answer *I think* here just want to be sure about the relevent sections from the OFT guidelines eg psychological harassment, also breaking the law by claiming to be able to or threaten to send a debt collector without an appointment or court order.

 

Not CCAd this account with NDR, but will be doing now. Essentially, they threaten to issue a Statutory Default Notice within 14 days ... and the usual 'we will whip you until you bleed, you will never obtain credit again for 6 years, we are your masters, can do what we like, say what we like' and just make sure they go on to say:

 

'Once we have registered this default you will NEVER *in UPPERCASE, get a grip NDR! cos I do not give a damn whether I see your bloody catalogues, encounter your company again for the rest of my life!* be able to trade with us again; well, screw you, then, NDR, er, Littlewoods ... you have created and worsened this debt for me by refinancing it! Like the conniving, little merchant bankers you really are! You have lied, you have misled, you have ignored every thing I have sent to you.

 

Underneath is where I need advice on what to say to them now:

 

Further action to recover this debt may result in the following:

 

A DEBT COLLECTOR VISITING YOU AT YOUR HOME

 

COURT PROCEEDINGS MAY BE ISSUED

 

ALL COURT AND SOLICITORS FEES WILL BE CHARGED TO YOU

You can prevent the above by paying the total amount due of £xx.xx immediately

 

OR

 

Contact us to discuss your reasonable *unreasonable then, in your case NDR! pay me for the phone call, I will gladly call you, not!*

 

Call us on *number* immediately if you wish to discuss repayment options.

 

Er, didn't you just say that above NDR???

 

Oh, these people are comedy jokers right nough when they say at the bottom:

 

If you are experiencing financial difficulties contact us for appropriate advice.

 

By now I have spat out whatever I had been drinking with laughter. I will not be contacting you at NDR for advice, thanks very much! Done that, you lied, tried to get me to refinance again, nearly doubling the amount. Go screw yourselfs you pack of hyenas!

 

Anyway, I will be CCAing them very soon ... but is there anything I can reply with or is it worth be bothering TBH? I know they are violating the law, OFT guidelines on merely threatening me with debt collector visits.

[fuzzybobble]

Send them this........

 

Dear Sirs,

Please be advised that I am only prepared to communicate with you in writing. OFT rules and regulations clearly state that you can only visit me at my home if you make an appointment and I have no wish to make an appointment with you. There is only an implied license under English Common Law for people to be able to visit me on my property without express permission; the postman and people asking for directions etc (Armstrong v. Sheppard and Short Ltd [1959] 2 Q.B. per Lord Evershed M.R.).

Therefore take note that I revoke license under Common Law for you, or your representatives, to visit me at my property and if you persist in sending “doorstep callers” to my home, you will be reported for harassment and be liable for damages for a tort of trespass. You would also be liable for conspiring in a tort of trespass by acting in defiance of my instructions and sending someone to visit me nevertheless.

Should it be necessary, I will obtain an injunction.

Yours sincerely,