Help - Parking Charge from PPC in Scotland

[pin1onu]

Hi all, How about a wee bank holiday brain teaser for all you legal eagles?

I think it's well established that the Malicious Communication Act is irrelevant in Scotland. But what is the position if an English Registered company, HQ in England, Writes a malicious letter in England and posts it in England. Does English law prevail, or the laws in the recipitants country???

The MCA covers the act of sending. Destination is not mentioned.

 

(1) Any person who sends to another person—

(a) a letter or other article which conveys—

(i) a message which is indecent or grossly offensive;

(ii) a threat; or

(iii) information which is false and known or believed to be false by the sender; or

(b) any other article which is, in whole or part, of an indecent or grossly offensive nature,

 

IMO the complaint would need to be made in country where the offense occurred (England) and the case, I would suspect, need to be heard there as well.

[patdavies]

I concur.

 

The only possible defence might be that the company concerned actually travelled to Scotland to post the letter.

[lamma]

In that event I would argue strongly that the sending started in England.

 

the method of sending is not covered either - ergo it isn't restricted to Royal Mail.

[patdavies]

In that event I would argue strongly that the sending started in England.

 

the method of sending is not covered either - ergo it isn't restricted to Royal Mail.

 

I defer to m'learned friend and withdraw the proffered defence m'lud.

[scaniaman]

Right gals & guys, the posting thing need not worry Central Ticketing as they have an office in Edinburgh.

Got letter tonight from people fighting Lidl car parking "fines". What I didn't know was a wee bit of law concerning cctv cameras. As is common knowledge, only the Driver of the offending vehicle is answerable for these charges, and cctv cameras are allowed to film REG No. They are NOT Allowed to film driver, without his/her permission, as this is an offence against the Human Rights Act. Hopefully this snippet of info may help someone who's face etc has been captured on camera. It may be worth while for anyone who has been advised that they have been caught on cctv, to ask to see tape!!!

[TaxedAndConfused]

They are NOT Allowed to film driver, without his/her permission

 

Wouldn't this render any CCTV, e.g. those used outside shops (inside may be different) completely useless ?

[battyboomboom]

It would also make photography of anyone in the street illegal - which it most certainly is not.

[TaxedAndConfused]

Going back to the original post my friend who got a ticket in Scotland went with the "take it up with the driver" approach - she genuinely wasn't driving that day.

 

She ignored the threats of financial and social armageddon which followed and nothing further happened. Its been all quiet for almost a year.

 

If the law on this element (contract is not proven with the RP) is different in Scotland the PPCs don't seem to up on it either.

[auldain]

Re TaxAndConfused's thread, does anyone know where the registered keeper stands legally if they were not the driver on the day the "offence" occurred (in my case TPS Ltd photographed the car in a Lidl CP). Lots of " you should be ok" statements of the forum but nothing definitive. Can Scottish law or case law be quoted for my peace of mind. Also will the English based TPS Ltd have to take its action in Scotland where the "offence" occurred, or can they have their action heard in an English court and if successful enforce it in Scotland?

[pin1onu]

Also will the English based TPS Ltd have to take its action in Scotland where the "offence" occurred, or can they have their action heard in an English court and if successful enforce it in Scotland?

I think this answers will answer your question

 

This is taken from the OFT guidelines.

"Those contacting debtors must not be deceitful by misrepresenting their authority and/or the correct legal position."

 

This includes:

 

• claiming to work for the court or be a bailiff or sheriff officer;
  
• implying action can be taken that is not legally possible such as implying they could take your property;
  
• using a business name or logo that implies they are a government body;
  
• implying that court action has been taken against you when it has not;
  
• implying not paying your debt is a criminal offence; and
  
• threatening to take court action in England if you live in Scotland or the other way around.
  

Source NationalDebtLine.co.uk/scotland fact sheets - harrassment

 

From that I would read they must seek to enforce in Scottish courts if the breach occurred in Scotland. Despite the fact they are based in England they would be expected to abide by Scottish law. A good example of this is that despite some of these companies clamping cars in England they cannot do so in Scotland (you lucky people) as this breaches existing Scottish case law.

[scaniaman]

Auldain & T&C. I got the info from a company who is representing LIDL. Apparently LIDL have got rid of TPS because of all the hassle with customers. (Auldain, I suspect you were done in LIDL Arbroath???) There was an article in the Arbroath Herald about this a while back. Cannot say anything about cctv cameras in other situations. Will try and rake out another website with the LIDL details on it.

[TaxedAndConfused]

Re TaxAndConfused's thread, does anyone know where the registered keeper stands legally if they were not the driver on the day the "offence" occurred (in my case TPS Ltd photographed the car in a Lidl CP).

 

There isn't a thread for this, I came here and to Pepipoo read loads and we just did used a standard letter from Pepipoo I think. She didn't really want stuff up on the web which is fair.

 

They are basically trying to say you have a contract with them because your car was photographed, ticketed or whatever. Their argument is that like local council tickets it is the keeper who is ultimately responsible except that in our (CAG) view it isn't because the PPC argument relies on a contract, and you can't be held to a contract unless they can prove you were there - and usually they can't.

 

The proof really is in the souffle. If they (PPCs) were confident of their case they would take all those dastardly motorists to court and claim their cash but they don't. They know if they do that and lose their business model basically ends.

[lamma]

exactly - if they were on a sure fire winner they would take every case to court as it would be money in the bank for them. but they don't do they.

 

there are more weaknesses in the PPC case that just proving who the driver is. several more..

[scaniaman]

Sorry, this is best info i can get at present.www.arbroathherald.co.uk/CAMER...F_IN.3901067.jp

Pepipoo website.---Fightback Forums. Parking and Decriminalised Notices. Go to page 2 then scroll down to No. 35 SCOTLAND.

T&C. don't worry about registered keeper. I am not RK of my car. Contract:-If someone drives a vehicle on to private land eg private car park, there is said to exist a contract. This contract is between the DRIVER of the vehicle and the land owner. However, the landowner may discharge?/dispone? his responsibility to a third party, ie A private parking company. The transfer of responsibility must be by way of a proper signed agreement between landlord and PCP firm. This is the jist of the position,but not phrased in legal terms im'e afraid.

Briefly, the terms of the contract is that the land owner or his representative, can only demand payment for loss of income/profit. For example, if you park up in Lidl's car park(taking last empty space at the time) and do not enter the shop to transact business, and at the same time a LIDL customer can't get parked, and go elsewhere to shop, they can only charge what that punter would have spent in LIDL store. How they know the amount is beyond me as I never know how much I will spend in any store until I get to the till!! This £85 fine caper is pure bollocks.

Edited May 26, 2008 by scaniaman

[scaniaman]

I have been contacted by two victims and asked questions I can't answer, so can anyone give factual advice please.

1.As far as County/City planners are concerned, does a retail outlet over a certain size have to provide customer parking, and if so, is there any %age of the spaces that must be designated for disabled?

I tried our local county planning office--EVENTUALLY got to speak to someone---100% evasive!!!

2.One for Dundee lawyers perhaps? Given all the info on these web sites, by what legal statute?/law can Da Vinci charge for parking on the open air sites previously operated by Ninewells Hospital, especially the disabled ones in closest proximity to the main hospital entrance?

Tip for disabled-- if someone has made a short visit to hospital and have lots of time left on ticket, they may be kind enough to offer ticket to new arrival (top scottish criminal). If you accept this ticket, make sure that hand over is done with absolute discretion as I have been told that cctv cameras may be watching you. Better pretend to visit pay machine, Which may or may not work anyway.

[lamma]

as a thought experiment.

In the circumstances that scaniaman describes if the exchange of ticket is paid for even if it only a token amount such as 2p hasn't the parking ticket been purchased and so the parking paid for. No longer a transfer but a sale.

 

I suppose it would depend on exact wording on machine and ticket. I

know places where the wording is such that a 2p sale fulfills all said terms.

[scaniaman]

TERROR--PLEASE HELP NOW.

Wife's hit the bottle and Im'e on Vallium. (instead of viagra)

This morning my worst nightmare came to being. A white envelope with UKMAIL in bold letters where stamp should be, was in amongst post.

On opening, I collapsed on chair as it was a letter from ccsCOLLECT, a debt collection firm from Thornton Heath, Surrey. They have been instructed by Central Ticketing Ltd to collect £143. (didn't say what for). If entire amount is not paid by Friday 6th June, this could lead to court action and the amount will increase to £277.13 to cover judicial expenses. Interest may be added?!! Please note that if a decree is awarded in favour of CTL, this will affect credit rating, and be detrimental to future applications for credit. ONLY PAYMENT IN FULL WILL BE ACCEPTED. Contact us now on 0845 632 9690.

Proper detachable bank giro form at foot of letter.

What should I do???

Can you legal eagles out there please inform me (under Scots law) if there is an offence of "Demanding money with menaces"??

[Barnsley Boy]

scaniaman,

 

don't know what to say to you in your time of trouble - you must be bricking it.

 

probably off topic but some of us south of the border would be very interested in the viagra for vallium exchange scheme that you appear to be proposing.

[TaxedAndConfused]

Scaniaman - from reading pepipoo for a while the next response from you is to send an account in dispute letter which gets rid of the DCA and sends it back to the parking company.

[Zamzara]

No need to worry about this at all, it's the next standard step in the process. A debt collection agency has no additional powers.

 

No need to do anyhting, but you could report them to trading standards for the attempt at intimidating you.

[Barnsley Boy]

Proper detachable bank giro form at foot of letter.

 

Scaniaman,

 

I appreciated from your previous postings that your expressions of TERROR were ironic, hence the flippancy of my last posting.

 

It does seem ill advised for the PPC to issue details of their own bank accounts. What is to stop an irresponsible person filling out direct debit mandates in the names of random charities using the names, account numbers and sort codes on any PPC bank giro forms that they may have to hand. This would be a reprehensible act as it would cause administrative confusion to the PPC concerned.

[scaniaman]

Thanks all,--BB, the bank details are for collection agency, not CT. (sorely tempted to ask you for full details on how to do this)

T&C. Thought about this move, but several posters advise to completely ignore all letters except court summons. Also, by replying, it confirms to them that I received demand. No demand letters have yet been delivered by "Recorded Delivery" or any similar system. (Im'e away to Spain for summer to assist son renovate his house!!!!) See what i mean?

ZAM. Local TS been advised of story to date, but will phone them about this last demand.

[patdavies]

[

It does seem ill advised for the PPC to issue details of their own bank accounts. What is to stop an irresponsible person filling out direct debit mandates in the names of random charities using the names, account numbers and sort codes on any PPC bank giro forms that they may have to hand. This would be a reprehensible act as it would cause administrative confusion to the PPC concerned.

 

A commercial bank account can be set up to not allow direct debits.

[scaniaman]

Zamzara, Contacted TS today. Bloke there said they had no powers to do anything to these debt collectors. Asked about law regarding "demanding Money etc." Told this is police matter!!!! In this part of the country, none of the "Official Bodies" seem willing to help in any way.

[scaniaman]

Hi again, anyone have detailed knowledge on how Post Office works? It has occcurred to me, what would position be if i saw local postmaster & said not to deliver letters with certain markings on them. I rather think I know the answer but on the other hand, what if able to meet Postie every morning and refuse delivery of such envelopes? Would it be a case of "Return to sender"?