Help - Parking Charge from PPC in Scotland

[scottish_mark]

The case quoted involved parking tickets issued on private land, the driver clocked up a number of them - he refused to pay stating the word fine was a penalty and therefore not permitted.

He offered them 10pounds fee as that is how much they charge for a permit on old signs but not 30 as the additional 20 was a penalty and not permitted.

The court considered this and found that he had agreed to the 30 charge by parking by his actions of parking and he was aware of the signage.

 

In Scotland cases in lower courts are normally closed and unless someone tells the newspapers or smilar then they are not likely to be reported on, whereas cases in a higher court because they are binding are referenced

I understand a similar situation happens in England and Wales.

[scottish_mark]

sorry one addition, each fine was 30 and first one issued in 2001.

 

I read most companies charge approx 60, with inflation, I would suspect a court would prob agree it was reasonable.

 

The case also makes it clear that the amount claimed does not have to be the loss (if this were the case the sheriff principal would have only awarded 10 per ticket)

 

It should be noted that there were no questions that the signage was clear, if the signage was not clear or not present I feel this case would have gone the other way.

 

I don't think it matters how many tickets were issued, this could have bearing on the chances of someone taking it to court in the first place but not the legal issues.

[lamma]

and still no slew of PPC wins in scotland based on this case from almost four years ago. If it was as you portray then there would be a slew of them. And PPCs on every corner trying to cash in.

It ain't happening is it.

 

the QED thing isn't going away at all - still (still) ((still)) (((still))).

[scottish_mark]

sorry don't what happened there, I don't know how to delete the duplicate .. Admins please can you do

[scottish_mark]

I dont know of a way in Scotland to find that out as they will all be small claims and the list not public.

 

Is there a way in England to find it in those courts, if so let me know as there must be similar in Scotland.

 

There may be hundreds of wins, there may be hundreds of losses.

[scottish_mark]

... They are public but not advertised, you know what I mean

[lamma]

I don't know what you mean - although you do seem to be leading 'an inference' while also abstracting from verfication. As such it is clearly fallacious.

None have made it here - or any where else on the net that is findable. With all those cases posted on multiple forums about PPC invoices.

Plenty of threads about PPCs in scotland not getting their invoices paid though - despite this single case you quote as being the 'legal references'.

So much for the slam dunk.

ahh, perhaps by 'not advertised' you mean 'invisible' or 'redacted from reality'.

 

The QED thing isn't going away at all still (still) ((still)) (((still))) ((((still))))

 

If it walks like a duck and quack like a duck it very probably is a duck

.

 

No Sale.

[scaniaman]

scottish mark, sorry, but your original thread didn't say that it was the McPhail guy you were referring to. I didn't realise that they had made him up to a QC either. Went on to google and read thread on the case in question and now understand better where you are comming from. It's 20+ years since i crossed swords with Mc Phail and he is a fair adversory.

The google page raised two questions in my mind viz: McPhail had previous knowledge of this guy through a court case involving a branch of DSS. Didn't think he would have wanted another case involving the same bloke. Just about wet myself when i read other story on google:- Both parties he had had problems with(court action) eventually finished up as his employers ha ha . See his cv.

Footnote:-You may not appreciate my attitude or terminology in replys, but for reasons i can't print, when i hear/see the words edinburgh and law in the same sentence, my mind conjurs up a picture of a man in a pin-striped suit, wide lapels and a soft hat. This figure supports an automic machine gun and stands on the running board of an old American car.

[scaniaman]

Update. I received a garbled message late afternoon from local TSO. Apparently, some Dundee victims arranged a meeting with the "Ticketers" to discuss situation. Ticketers failed to show up. TS are supposed to have contacted Central Ticketing HQ, who have as yet failed to reply.

RUMOUR:-TS officers have supposedly visited old mill site to view situation. When away from car they too were ticketed. !!!Ticket disposed of in bin. Two men, in separate cars, went to site at 7am to hand over keys to other employees.away from cars for a matter of minutes---both ticketed.

[lamma]

to be clear - are these CPS tickets you are referring to ?

[scaniaman]

lamma, these are Parking Charge tickets. The sticky envelope they are in has a yellow background with a black and white police style checkered centre square. Inside this square is printed, in heavy black writing, PARKING CHARGE. Underneath this is "Unauthorised removal or interference is an offence, photographic evidence taken." Trust this answers your query.

A long awaited reply from CAB arrived today. They say that the "Contract" argument is the best option to go for, as the harassment one is at present only normal proceedure in the collection of money. Both CAB and TS think that completely ignoring these people is still the best solution, until, in the unlikely event, that they iniciate court action.

[lamma]

answered.

with that wrapping there are several other Acts that TS/OFT/Police should be interested in. Not east the Fraud Act 2006.

[scaniaman]

Perhaps so lamma, but try getting police/OFT to act!! I am presently involved with oft on a holiday [problem] project. In every letter I receive from them, the first paragraph is mainly taken up with what they WON'T do. They say they can't/won't act for the individual, but will consider investigation if several individuals complain about same firm/problem. Have asked on previous threads how others are responded to by organisations that you mention---NO replies!!

[scaniaman]

lamma, can you please expand on what other Acts could be followed apart from Fraud Act1966. Thank you.

[lamma]

there is a whole list of them, how many depends on what is the paperwork.need to see it all to comment.

 

rs TS an OFT - check out the list statutes they are oblidged to consider, they are listed in word documents the TS website. TS/OFT often hide behind 'individual v group' response story. thats why everyone should complain to TS/OFT every time. then ask TS/OFT how many PPC complaints they have received in the last year/period. And complain to AA/RAC/IAM if you are a member and insist they write to TS. Same goes for the snowball affect with these orgs.

re the police, no good talking to a front desk bod, you need need to politely insist on seeing and inspector and then lay it out for them and make sure they know this is an official complaint and that you want a crime number. if you really want them to take note then take a solicitor with you.

Edited May 19, 2008 by lamma

[scaniaman]

Latest update:- but firstly thanks very much lamma. May I ask if you are resident in Scotland or England. There appears to be signifigant differences between laws in each country that pertain to this parking problem.

Correction from previous thread, viz meeting was between victims/tennents and landlord. landlord failed to turn up. Dundee TSO are to phone CT head office again on Thursday as no reply to first call.

VIP:- The police may have to be brought into this matter yet. One of the victims received a TEXT message from CT debt recovery outfit asking what was happening about money for parking fine.

WHO GAVE OUT VICTIMS MOBILE NUMBER and Forename???(dvlc??). Whoever did this must have seriously infringed the Data Protection Act.---Other victims beware!!!

[lamma]

AIUI PPC tickets have the same legal status in Scotland as they do in England - and no clamping option or course !

fraud Act 2006 covers scotland. if on doubt on coverage of a statute (which is wise) check on statutelaw

 

what are the differentiations you have in mind ?

[scaniaman]

lamma, the first one that springs to mind is The Administration of Justice Act 1970(sec 40) on harassment. Not applicable in Scotia. According to CAB, harassment of debtors is not a specific offence here!! The other is The Malicious Communications Act(postal equivalent of telecommunications Act), again not applicable here unfortunately.

[lamma]

Fraud Act 2006 section 2 should be enough haven't seen any PPC paperwork ever that didn't misrepresent.

 

never had need to look for the scottish equivalents of those Acts (if they exist) sorry.

[pin1onu]

lamma, the first one that springs to mind is The Administration of Justice Act 1970(sec 40) on harassment. Not applicable in Scotia. According to CAB, harassment of debtors is not a specific offence here!! The other is The Malicious Communications Act(postal equivalent of telecommunications Act), again not applicable here unfortunately.

Scania, No not more verbal diarrhoea. :grin:

 

As you've said you can't get at them specifically under the AJA or Malicious Communications.

 

I've done a little bit of digging into Scottish Debt Harassment laws/protection. I found this link on the National Debtline which may offer some other avenues to persue. Unfortunately there is not a lot of specific legislation like AJA, Malicious Communications Act that you can use in Scotland.

 

They mention specifically the 1997 Protection from Harassment Act. You need to get an order and or an interdiction via a private action.

 

If they are phoning you Section 43 of the Telecommunications Act 1984 (making menacing calls).

 

They also suggest contacting Trading Standards and if needs be the OFT.

[rory32]

The reason that section 40 of the Admin of Justice Act, etc does not cover Scotland is that Scots Law (and offences under Scots Law) is predominantly based on common law - rather than statute as in England.

 

Offences such as harassment etc. are covererd by such common laws as breach of the peace and more relevant in this case the common law of threats. There are two classes of threats: the first includes threats to "burn a man's house....to put him to death, or to do him any grievous bodily harm, or to do any serious injury to his property, his fortune, or his reputation." There is a completed crime in such cases as soon as the threat is made, for example, by posting a threatening letter. The second class comprises all other threats including threats of violence not amounting to grievous harm.

[scaniaman]

pin1onu, can't understand your fascination for things "Scottish" but it is most refreshing to see that you can post worthwhile info instead of your previous verbal diarrhoea. Keep it up. (spellchecker on duty tonight)

Rory32:- Many thanks for that info, I did know some of it. The main problem with these sites is that there can be volumes of knowledge available, but info on Scottish law is a bit thin on the ground, especially if one tries to find equivalent legislation which is relevant in the respective countries.

The general consensus of opinion seems to be "totally ignore these PPC tickets, and any follow up letters" unless the PPC does in fact raise court action, then of course you must reply.

[pin1onu]

pin1onu, can't understand your fascination for things "Scottish"

Scania,

Its simple I hate the PPC's and the scams they pull. There have been a few queries about Scottish law. I'm reasonably good at researching things, so if I can find anything to help posters in Scotland beat these scumbags and put an end to their bullying tactics then I'm prepared to spend a bit of time doing it.

[scaniaman]

Great stuff Pin1onu. TS didn't phone today,but expect to have report on what Central Ticketing said in response to TS enquiry. Again, there are stories going around that CT are making certain dispensations for visitors to the Dundee site. This means that they still haven't got the message that these tickets are not worth the paper they are written on.

If you like digging up scams, then try Vacaciones Wide Plus, Majorca.

They [problem] £1000s from UK holidaymakers to supposedly join an exclusive holiday club. Outfit actually run from Isle of Man. See www. holidaywatchdog.com or complaintsboard.com Full story and video on Holidayclubtales.co.uk - Beware the scratchcard touts when on holiday.. Maybe you could even get something going on this site. We beleive that all we can do now is to warn as many of the public as possible not to entertain touts. We also advise people of various methods to try and get their money back. Been very interesting over the last year.

[scaniaman]

Hi all, How about a wee bank holiday brain teaser for all you legal eagles?

I think it's well established that the Malicious Communication Act is irrelevant in Scotland. But what is the position if an English Registered company, HQ in England, Writes a malicious letter in England and posts it in England. Does English law prevail, or the laws in the recipitants country???