CL Finance CCA

[Lopez12]

Need to send CCA request to CL finance for GE/Debenhams account opened in 1984.

 

Have 2 addresses for them:

 

PO Box 166, Cleckheaton, BD19 4WN and

 

Kingston House, Centre 27 Business Park,Woodhead Road,Birstall,Batley,

WF17 9TD

 

 

Which one should I use ?, any help appreciated,

Thank you

[Docman]

The Batley address is the registered office for CL Finance Ltd and therefore it is the address that the company must accept service of any legal document or letter.

 

I would send the CCA request with a £1 postal order to Batley by recorded delivery. That will meet any legal requirment. If you wanted for your request to be actioned, I would also send a copy without any cash to Cleckheaton.

[Lopez12]

CCA with £1 postal order sent to the Batley address by recorded delivery

 

Thank you for your help

[Lopez12]

Reply received from CL Finance, with a photocopy of the original Debenhams application form from 1984. Sent a suitable letter back to them.

 

Yesterday received another copy of the same application form with a terms and conditions sheet that is obviously not the original as it says GE Capital on the bottom.

They also sent a few statements from 2005 .

 

Any recommendations please.

[Lopez12]

Would this letter be suitable ?

 

Thank you for your recent letter dated 31st March 2008, the contents of which are noted.

 

However, the reply received by me does not fulfill your requirements under the Consumer Credit Act 1974.

 

The Act demands that I be supplied with a true copy of any properly executed credit agreement that exists in relation to the above account. I may ask for this on demand providing that a fee of £1.00 is paid. This fee was sent with my original letter, dated 26th January 2008. Upon receipt of the original request the specified account legally entered into disputed status.

 

My request remains outstanding.

 

So far you have sent 2 copies of a pre-contractual application form and a photocopy of a terms and conditons sheet that is obviously not the original as it has the wrong company name on it.

 

As you will know, under the Consumer Credit Act 1974, a judge is not permitted to make any enforcement order unless the creditor can provide a true signed copy of the original credit agreement. This means that unless you can produce such an agreement, this alleged debt is not enforceable in law.

 

You had until 15th March 2008 to provide me with the true copy I requested. After that date you entered into default of my request. Whilst the account is in dispute, you are not permitted to ask for any payment, nor am I obliged to offer any payment to you. Furthermore, whilst the dispute remains, you are not entitled to charge any interest on the account, nor make any further charges to the account. Additionally, you are not entitled to register any information on this account with any credit reference agencies (or any third party).

 

To register information with a credit reference agency, you must have written consent from the data subject to collate and share such information. This consent is given in the form of a signed credit agreement, so until you produce such an agreement, you may not do this.

 

The requirement for consent to share data is a clear requirement of the Data Protection Act 1998. Any such attempts to share my data without my consent will be met with a complaint to the Information Commissioners Office.

 

The time limits, which are laid down in the Consumer Credit (Prescribed Periods for Giving Information) Regulations 1983 are clear. You must supply an executed credit agreement within 12 working days of a proper CCA request. If you fail to comply with a legitimate request the account enters a default situation and if you fail to comply after a further 30 days you commit an offence.

 

Therefore you have 7 days from receiving this letter to contact me with your intentions to resolve this matter which is now a formal complaint, otherwise your conduct will be reported to the Office of Fair Trading, the Financial Ombudsman and Trading Standards. Any investigation undertaken by them may affect your ability to hold a consumer credit license in the future.

 

To sum up, I will not be making any further payments to you until you provide me with the document I have requested. Should you not have any signed credit agreement in relation to this alleged debt, please confirm this in writing to me.

 

I would appreciate your due diligence in this matter.

 

I look forward to your reply.

 

You are welcome to use the fax number shown above.

 

Thank you to Curlyben and others for the template

[42man]

Can you scan up what they have sent you ? (cross off any personal details, account numbers etc)

[42man]

I am pleased to see that you confirm this as a true copy of the original agreement executed by yourselves on the 26th July 2007.

 

As you must realise this agreement does not conform to sections 60(1) and 61(1) of the Consumer credit Act and is therefore unenforceable under section 127(3) of the same act.

 

You had until (date here) to provide me with the true copy I requested. After that date you entered into default of my request. Whilst the account is in dispute, you are not permitted to ask for any payment, nor am I obliged to offer any payment to you. Furthermore, whilst the dispute remains, you are not entitled to charge any interest on the account, make any further charges to the account or pass the account to anybody else. I would also like to note that as from the (12+2 working days + 30 calendar days) it becomes a criminal offence.

Please note you may also consider this letter a statutory notice under Section 10 of the Data Protection Act to cease processing any data in relation to this account with immediate effect. This means you must remove all information regarding this account from your own internal records and from my records with any credit reference agencies including any defaults. Should you refuse to comply, you must within 21 days provide me with a detailed breakdown of your reasoning behind continuing to process my data. It is not sufficient to simply state that you have a ‘legal right’, you must outline your reasoning in this matter and state upon which legislation this reasoning depends.

 

Should you fail to respond within 21 days, I will expect that this means you agree to remove all such data.

Also please take note that if you are trying to use documents which are not pertinant to the time this alleged account was in place, I will have no hesitation in classifying this as fraud and will have no hesitation in reporting this to the relevant authorities.

[Lopez12]

Hi 42man thank you for your help.

 

CL_AppForm.pdf

 

CL_Terms.pdf

 

Debenhams application form is from 1984, readable with a magnifying glass.

 

A clue on the terms is that its says GE Capital not Debenhams finance.

Also received a few statements from 2005.

 

Paid through Payplan up to now.

 

 

 

L12

[42man]

I've asked somebody more knowledgable than me to take a look...

[Curlyben]

Well that's complete crud.

The "agreement" MUST be easily readable.

This applies:

The Consumer Credit (Cancellation Notices and Copies of Documents) Regulations 1983 SI No. 1557

 

Legibility of notices and copy documents and wording of prescribed Forms

2.-(1) The lettering in every notice in a Form prescribed by these Regulations and in every copy of an executed agreement, security instrument or other document referred to in the Act and delivered or sent to a debtor, hirer or surety under any provision of the Act shall, apart from any signature, be easily legible and of a colour which is readily distinguishable from the colour of the paper

 

Also the supplied T&C are irrelevant as they could relate to anything at all.

 

This is taken from another thread;

Under SI 1983/1553 the prescribed terms MUST be within the signature document to be valid, having them on a seperate sheet headed T&C or similar ISN'T acceptable.

SI 1983/1553 (6 Signing of agreement) which states that the prescribed terms MUST be within the signature document. (Column 2 schedule 6)

This applies to all agreements pre May 2005.

So basically this is unenforceable, under 127(3).

 

Just to add to my comments re terms witin signature doc.

This was covered off in Wilson and another v Hurstanger Ltd [2007] EWCA Civ 299

 

Schedule 1 to the 1983 Regulations sets out the "information to be contained in documents embodying regulated

consumer credit agreements". Some of this information mirrors the terms prescribed by Sch 6, but some does not. Contrasting

the provisions of the two schedules the Judge said

33 In my judgment the objective of Schedule 6 is to ensure that, as an inflexible condition of enforceability, certain basic minimum terms are included which the parties (with the benefit of legal advice if necessary) and/or the court can identify within the four corners of the

agreement. Those minimum provisions combined with the requirement under s 61 that all the terms should be in a single document, and

backed up by the provisions of section 127(3), ensure that these core terms are expressly set out in the agreement itself: they cannot be

orally agreed; they cannot be found in another document; they cannot be implied; and above all they cannot be in the slightest mis-stated.

As a matter of policy, the lender is denied any room for manoeuvre in respect of them. On the other hand, they are basic provisions, and

the only question for the court is whether they are, on a true construction, included in the agreement. More detailed requirements, which

are designed to ensure that the debtor is made aware, so far as possible, of specified information (including information contained in the

minimum terms) are to be found in Schedule 1.

[Lopez12]

Received the following reply from Trading Standards after several months, any thoughts or comments please.

 

 

Thank you for sending me a copy of the documentation in relation to your complaint with CL Finance.

I have now fully reviewed the documentation supplied and can advise you on the following.

The date of the application and your completed direct debit mandate is 3 December 1984. This is prior to the provisions of Part V and VI of the Consumer Credit Act 1974, including Section 77 and 78 and the associated regulations which came into force 19 May 1985.

Section 77 and 78 state that "the creditor shall. ... give the debtor a copy of the executed agreement (if any) " The bracketed wording "if any" would apply to most naturally to the exception for agreements older than 19 May 1985.

As the legislation concerning the form and content, execution and the duties to supply executed agreements, as laid down in the part V of the Act and the associated regulations also did not come into force until the 19 May 1985, there would have been no requirement for a copy of an executed agreement to have existed.

It is therefore our opinion that no offence has been or indeed could not be committed in these circumstances.

We are assuming that the terms and conditions that CL Finance has provided are those that were the latest prevailing at the time that the debt was taken over by them from GE Capital which is in accordance with regulation 7(1) of the Consumer Credit (Cancellation Notices and copies of documents) Regulations 1983.

Therefore we are concluding that CL Finance has discharged their obligations and the agreement is not unenforceable. Ultimately only a court can decide whether to enforce your debt with CL Finance and it would be for you to challenge any future proceedings that CL Finance may bring.

This service cannot take any further action regarding this matter

[Curlyben]

Are CL still chasing you on this one ?

 

Interesting views from TS there, but they have correctly pointed out that really only court action would be able to assert this documents validity.

[Lopez12]

Any advice for next move on this one please.

[Curlyben]

As I said back on the 10th are CL still chasing this ?

[Lopez12]

Yes, they are still sending monthly statements. At the moment Payplan are still paying them.

[Lopez12]

Any advice what to do next with this one please.

 

Thanks

LPZ

[Ragtaggeorge]

They will know if what they have is enforceable or not, wait for them to take you to court.

This may just be another scare tactic it will force them to give you an exact copy of the documents to be used in enforcing the agreement before the hearing.

Post them up when they arrive for an opinion, take it from there.

[Lopez12]

Still receiving stupid letters from them , any suggestions for a suitable bogoff reply.

 

 

You have failed to make the agreed payments towards the concessionary arrangement on your account. If you have made a recent payment then please ignore this letter.

 

To allow the arrangement to continue, you must make an immediate payment of £**.** to reach us within 10 days of the date on this letter. All subsequent payments must continue to be paid, as originally agreed as a condition of the concessionary arrangement.

 

If your payment is not received, the arrangement will be cancelled and further action will be taken to recover the full balance.

 

Please treat this letter as formal notification that if you do not make the agreed payment, a default will be registered at the Credit Reference Agencies in respect of the amount due at the time. This information will be available to other Finance Companies, Banks and Building Societies and may result in you being refused credit when applying for a loan, credit card or even a mortgage.

 

 

Should you have any difficulties making this payment you must contact one of our advisors immediately on 0870 751 3399 to discuss the matter further.

 

Under the terms of the Data Protection Act, we cannot discuss any details of your account with another party, unless we have your written permission.

 

Yours sincerely

 

Concessionary Arrangement Team

 

[PGH7447]

next step from ClueLess Finance will be a default notice then court papers from howard cohen

 

I am about a month in front of you with a similar issue reference a debenhams store card with these clowns,

[UnmoderatetheNet]

Can Clowns Finance issue DN if OC has already done so?

 

I think the trick to beating these losers who it seems send court papers for everything they buy is to GO FOR COSTS.

 

MAKE THEM PAY.

 

They might stop wasting the courts time, I doubt it but it's always nice to hear a DCA being stung for costs.

[angel_1]

hiya lopez

 

i too am in battle with these clowns

 

but at the moment, ive disputed the cca with cl finance and they sent me terms with Chip and Pin on rear,,,,,but mine is 2004

 

im just looking at your terms and i saw Card and Pin,,,,,,,

 

did you ever get a pin for your debenhams card, i never did...... im thinking along the lines the terms are poss for you and for me for a debenhams credit card???????? not store card

 

does that ring any bells, i remember i had to always sign any purchases, therefore i think they are supplying wrong terms what are your thoughts pls?

 

im subbed so will come back later and anyway pls remain positive this site has saved me from my depths of despair and forever grateful

 

laters angel x:cool:

[Lopez12]

Morning Angel

 

I last had a Debenhams card in 2004 and it was before chip and pin.

 

L12