Accessing Bank records of a dead person

[fridaysgirl]

Not sure whether anyone can help on this forum at all! but thought i may as well try.

 

I want to access my grandfathers bank records. He died 25 years ago. So for a start i am not even sure whether it is possible to access these records, as i know that medical records are normally only retained for a max of 10 years.

 

He lived in the UK, however the bank records i want to access were held in Ireland.

 

I need to access them in relation to sorting out my grand parents estate. when he died he did not make a will, and my uncle went to the bank the day he died and withdrew 14,000 from his account. He presented his bank book and forged his name!. I need these records as proof that the money was withdrawn on the day he died.

 

Can anyone help? Is it possible to get access after so long. I dont know his account number or any of those details - but we know the branch - the date the money was withdrawn, his home address and the account holders name.

If it is possible does anyone know the process??? Who to contact and so on.

 

Thanks

[Penfold92]

Hi Fridaysgirl,

 

I really would not know where to start, but I guess the main problem you will have is the statute of limitations and the fact that banks "claim" they destroy records after 6 years. I know that NatWest for example supposedly have my records for 12-15 years, but 25 years is a stretch.

 

I would suggest a probate lawyer would be your best point of contact to start with. You may need to pay an initial consultation fee, but they should be able to guide you as they deal with estates etc...

 

Hope that gives you something to start with. Others will hopefully have other ideas...

 

Penfold

[Guest vortex]

The estates department of the bank may well have some basic records for a long time after the actual account is closed. It may be very sketchy ie the date the account was finally closed and the amount of the account at closure, or even who the funds were released to. I would contact the bank in Ireland and ask and give the reasons as to why you would like the information including in it the date of death of your grandfather.

[isidore]

Yeah, I'd agree whilst the banks are a pain in the a**e at times, there is no harm in asking them up front and see what they say initially. You may have to go down others routes, but when they realise you aren't after your charges back they may be a bit more helpful

 

As for locating the account number, there is a service to search for lost / dormant accounts etc that I used recently.....I shall see if I can locate the website.

[isidore]

Found it!

 

https://www.bba.org.uk/bba/jsp/polopoly.jsp?d=144&a=5283

[becci]

hi fridaysgirl

 

right well I AM a probate lawyer so this in technically my area. It depends which relatives survived your grandfather as to who would have been entitled to his estate under what's called the intestacy provisions (for those who die without a will). If your grandmother was still alive, she would almost definitely have been entitled (can't say categorically without knowing the value of his estate). However, if your grandmother predeceased your grandfather, then his children would inherit. This means that, although your uncle obtained the cash fraudulently, if he was an only child then he woudl have got it eventually anyway if he'd done things properly, so you've nothing to gain from pursuing it. If he had siblings, then they would be the ones that woudl need to bring about any action.

 

I fear it may be too late to take any action anyway. your uncle's lawyer would argue you should have started things off long ago, and the statute of limitations would more than likely come into play. plus (as we know only too well on this site hehe) even if you win in court there's no guarantee any money would materialise (ie if he's skint, or at least convinced the court he was)

 

sorry this is a bit doom and gloom. let me know if I can help at all

 

becci x

[JonCris]

25 years is a long time to find out 14 grand is missing

[Guest vortex]

JC, i think the fact the uncle is alleged to have "forged" the signature for the £14000.00 says it all. Complicated family problem.

[JonCris]

I agree I'm just surprised it's taken so long to discover the 'theft' particularly as it's a fairly large sum

[Guest vortex]

that is a good point. Could fridaygirl explain a bit more about the circumstances and what has caused him/her to start investigating this so long after your grandfather's death?

[fridaysgirl]

i spent an hour responding to this and the fecking thing disappeared when i went to preview

 

rite

quickly

 

i'm trying to build up my knowledge base of waht happened with granparents estate

grandmother died - made a will

bequeaths her property to my dad and younger brother

10 years before death - brother becomes co-owner of large part of the land and on her death full owner

 

grandmother - made will

land she inherited on her husbands death (he died intestate) she left in all of her wills to dad and his bro each with a half.

land she brought to marriage - she left to my dad and his brother or to my dad on his own - in all of her wills but the final will ...were suddenly it is left to the 2 sisters

 

she was in and out of mental institution since her husband died

she had a psychiatrist...

 

10 years before she died the brother became co-owner of husbands land full owner of her death....my dad never knew

 

6 months before she dies the two sisters transfer ownership of land into their names - her dr advises the solicitor (who is only a new solicitor with a new firm - doesnt know anything about the family situaition) not to do this.. this is done in the presence of the 2 sisters and brother that inherited the share of the estate that she inherited from her husbands death.

 

when her final will was made teh solicitor that made teh will stated that the same three people were present . my dad and his other brother never present.

Edited February 25, 2019 by dx100uk
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[JonCris]

You lat post leaves all kinds of unanswered questions not least that you last posted in Jan! 7 months ago

 

I strongly advise that you see a skilled probate litigation solicitor

[fridaysgirl]

dr's records show she had dementia - she did that test mmse 3 times - and it showed she had dementia ....though not severe ...records state that she had anxiety , depression etcc... a consultant report states that it cannot say conclussively if she had mental capacity....

we are awaiting the pyschiatric records - which has to date taken 7 months to get - still waiting...

 

my grandmother did not know what she had to give away - if she knew teh land she inherited from her husbands estate was no longer hers to give away the minute she died - she would not have through over 15 wills leave my father 1/2 of a share of it .....i doubt she would even co-sign my uncle as owner if she understood what it meant.

the solicitor did not check what she owned was hers to give away - so she was not informed when she made her will

 

the solicitor should not have made the will in the presence of 3 siblings with 2 absent - especially when there was a major change to the will to the 2 sisters when it was all through a period of 15 years left to the 2 boys of my dad - especially when my dad who was previously the beneficaiay was not present - undue influence.....one of the daughters told her that she would drown herself if she didnt change the will because it benefited my father...of course my father was kept in the dark through out

 

the daughters solicitor should never have signed her land away 6 months prior to her death - esepcially when she did not know the situation and the people that were benefiting were there - and the person was elderly - adn the dr advised against it

 

my gran was in and out of a mental institution

[JonCris]

Your post leaves more questions than answers not least the fact it's been 7 months since you last posted

 

nevertheless I suggest you need to see a probate solicitor skilled in litigation

[fridaysgirl]

reason for not responding i didnt see the responses in my inbox i think i must have deleted them ....

we have been with a solicitor and unfortunately he isnt great .....not probate expert ...but cannot change him as my father is receiving legal aid

 

as it stands we are waiting on the psychiatric records ....the dr refused to send them otu to the solicitor even though we provided them with executor letter telling him to relase the records to teh solicitor ...he wanted my aunts signature - but sure why would she give it -when she will not gain from it ....anyway by law he has to release them ...so i haev sent a letter to the head of the records department in the hospital asking them to release the records and inform me as to why they have not already been done especially since we have abided by there procedures....at one stage they informed the solicitor that her records could not be found....so this delayed it for a long time....

[JonCris]

Mild dementia does not always discriminate against a testator if they can understand what they are doing at the time.

 

The solicitor would usually & in private, question them about recent & the days events. They would/should also ask them if the know what they are signing & it's content & only after receiving satisfactory answers should the completion of the Will go ahead

 

Did one or more of the beneficiaries witness it;)

[JonCris]

PS you can change solicitors if you can find another legal aid franchise probate expert the certificate goes with you

[fridaysgirl]

oh and regards to the 14k -

the whole family i.e. grandmother and the other children knew he took it..

gran demanded the money back from him - he gave her half of it back and told her that was it - he insists thats all was there.....

she never got more than that back.....

i wanted to know how if i could access these records - as i wanted to help build up a case for my father -illlustrating that all of his siblings but him inherited something from their parents estate....legally and illegally........

the stronger the case i have against each of them - the more willing they will each become to settle the case - and my father hopefully receive his equal share - at teh moment he will be lucky to get 3 acres......

 

yes all three beneficiaries were present - the 2 sisters and brother took all of the estate my grandmother had in her name since my grandfathers death...in fact even though she bequeathed them to my father and his brother in = shares - they took it all off her before she even died

by signing it over....

6 months before she died the two girsl signed over land from her to them with a solicitor that has never had a thing to do with the family in fact she just opened her own firm...

the dr advised against it when the solicitor contacted them

Edited February 25, 2019 by dx100uk
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[JonCris]

Ive just read one of your posts again. Are you saying the Solicitor allowed the beneficiaries to be present at the actual signing of the Will.

 

Was this the case throughout the whole procedure. In other words was the solicitor alone at anytime with the lady

 

Did the Dr advise against the signing because of her lack of capacity (inability to understand) & if so do you know his name & present whereabouts or do you think it may be in her medical notes cos if the doc gave such advice he will almost certainly have recorded it if only to protect him & his organization

[fridaysgirl]

PS you can change solicitors if you can find another legal aid franchise probate expert the certificate goes with you...

what certificate......

 

to date it has been me that has driven this whole matter got the records and contact details and so on...

have you more details on this??

i'll mention it to the family.... and get a democratic vote on wat to do ....its been dragging out now for a few years ...and were still getting medical data. because of waitng on legal aid and the solicitor being just plain slowww

[JonCris]

Almost forgot in the case of a deceased person they can't hide behind the DPA as the dead have no protection

[fridaysgirl]

yes the solicitor that made her final will who made all of teh wills she made - told us in his office - before we realised that he had made a hash job of it all and he knew we were going to contest it - because there was nothing left and they had taken it all...

anyway he told us that they were in teh farm house......him and his secretary went out to the farm house and the 3 of them were ther e....since my dad and none of us were present we dont know how he did it - wheter he took her apart from them - but i hardly think either the 3 of them or the solicitor will admit to this as it puts both him and them in trouble ...

 

yes the 2 sisters went to a differnt solicotr 6 months prior to granny died and got her to sign over the land from granny to them.

when we went to her dr initially to enquire about the medical records - the dr informed my father that she recalled the solicitor ringing about grany and that she advised her not to do it - on the grounds that she wouldnt be fit to do it - understand what was going on.

 

this dr's father was my granny's dr and she in turn took over - so she would know the family situation and my granny really well -

we got the dr's records and they were sent strating the to hte solicitor - he in turn sent them off to the consultant for him to do a report ....i am not sure whetehr it is in her medical notes or not...as we have never seen tehm ourselves

[JonCris]

Upon granting legal aid the LSC issue a certificate to the solicitor & I must say for them to grant legal aid in such circumstances must mean that they think you have a better than 51% or more chance of success

[fridaysgirl]

yeah i know all about accessing the records .....

 

Right of Access to Health Records

 

(1) An application for access to a health record, or to any part of a health record, may be made to the holder of the record by any of the following, namely -

 

(a) the patient;

(b) a person authorised in writing to make the application on the patient's behalf;

© where the record is held in England and Wales and the patient is a child a person having parental responsibility for the patient;

(d) responsibility for the patient; where the record is held in scotland and the patient is a pupil, a parent or guardian of the patient;

(e) where the patient is incapable of managing his own affairs, any person appointed by a court to manage those affairs; and

(f) where the patient has died, the patient's personal representative and any other person who may have a claim arising out of the patient's death

(http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts1990/ukpga_19900023_en_1)

 

Also if you refer to the Department of Health website it informs you the following:

 

 

Application for deceased person's health records

 

Question

What are the rights of access to a deceased persons’ health records?

Answer

Health records relating to deceased people do not carry a common law the duty of confidentiality. However, it is Department of Health and General Medical Council policy that records relating to deceased people should be treated with the same level of confidentiality as those relating to living people. Access to the health records of a deceased person is governed by the Access to Health Records Act 1990. Under this legislation when a patient has died, their personal representative or executor or administrator or anyone having a claim resulting from the death (this could be a relative or another person), has the right to apply for access to the deceased’s health records.

[JonCris]

On reading what you have last posted I don't think this solicitor is the incompetent you think he/she is & actually knows what they are doing. Probably like many in the legal profession they lack the ability to keep clients well informed of progress.

 

It's my experience that most complaints against lawyers are not about incompetence but about a failure to tell clients what's happening for months at a time

 

I now suggest that you remain with this solicitor as if nothing else it will save a lot of time in what appears to be a complicated brief