no road tax, got clamped!

[machinogodzilla]

Hello everyone!

 

I thought I would join this thread as some elements of the above discussion apply to my case. The problem I have is related to the term Double Jeopardy.

 

For reasons that don't really matter here I have not renewed the tax on my car. Then I received a letter from DVLA titled "Late Licensing Penalty" dated 16/01/2009. It said that because I failed to relicense my car I had to pay L80 penalty that would be reduced to L40 (plus the arrears) if I paid by 03/02/2009. At that point it was all fine to me, I was going to pay the fine and I renewed the tax right after the letter arrived.

 

But then (today) I received another letter titled "Unlicensed vehicle", dated 19/01/2009 and saying that my car was spotted kept on the road whilst unlicensed, and referring to the same period the first letter referred to (Nov/Dec 2008). This letter threatened me with the court actions if I don't pay L60 to DVLA's pocket.

 

I don't have any experience in this matter at all and I have not contacted the DVLA yet but from the sound of it it looks like they want me to pay twice for the same offence listed under two different names. As someone here said before if I didn't have the tax disk, then it was impossible to display it.

 

I haven't managed to conclude from the above discussion so can anyone tell me: do they have legal rights to charge me twice for this offence? Or, I think, I could ask - can I be convicted twice for the same offence?

[crem]

I'm no expert on this but what I think is happening here is you have received 2 letters for 2 seperate offences.

 

Offence 1 - Failing to renew your tax disk on time leads to a Late Licencing Fine. Quite logical name I guess coz you have licenced your car late.

 

Offence 2 - Using your car on the public highway without displaying a tax disk. I assume your not disputing it was seen on the road without a disk in the windscreen?

 

OK so although they occurred in the same timeframe, they are 2 seperate offences and 1 is not dependant on the other. i.e. you could have been subject to the LLP for not renewing your disk or SORNing your car, but if you had kept it in your garage during that time offence 2 would not have occurred.

 

*Please note I am in no way condoning or agreeing with anything the DVLA do in this post, I am just trying to apply a logical answer to what they appear to be doing.

[machinogodzilla]

Thank you for the prompt reply. I appreciate every comment.

 

I'm not disputing that the car was seen on the road without a tax disk.

 

For me (an average person with no garage, big garden, private road etc. that parks in the street) this is the natural order of things - failing in renewing the tax results, with the immediate effect, in the car being unlicenced. Because one results directly from another I can't see why I should pay twice.

 

[on a side: in the same second when the licence run out I: failed to relicence, my car's presence on the road become illegal AND the displayed tax disk become out-of-date - here then there is an idea for the reason for the third penalty, just add an extra paragraph whenever it's necessary]

 

If DVLA had send me a letter saying that I failed to relicense my car and I had, say, a week to pay the penalty and relicense the car, and after that week my car was spotted still being unlicensed, which would result in the penalty for using my car on the public highway with out-of-date tax disk, then I wouldn't have had nothing against it.

 

 

Another thing is, why am I being considered a criminal right away and threatened with a "court action" before I had a chance to do anything in this matter? I find it very offensive and intimidating.

[tifo]

yes, they do use double jeapordy i think and we pay twice for one thing really, not having road tax. They simply use two sets of rules.

 

It is impossible to display road tax if you haven't got it, so to be done for 1. not having it and 2. not displaying it, is another example of screw the motorist.

 

In my case they were OTT as a poster said above. I paid the penalty for not having road tax by letting them crush a car worth £750 at that time, or maybe slightly less, then they fined me £75 for the same reason i had just had my car crushed for.

 

Prior to taking the car away, they said nothing else will come after this.

 

The disclaimer i signed, which allowed them to take the car away and crush it, meant i was disowning the car and stating it wasn't my car even though it was last registered to me, therefore why did i pay £75 on a car i didn't own at the time of the offence?

 

They bully us into paying these fines, without any conviction, simply because there may be a larger potential fine at court and we take the easy option. So easy money for them.

[Hereabc]

Hi,

 

I would be grateful for your advice.

 

My situation is slightly different to Tifo's, as I did Sorn it but parked it for one day on the road.

 

I have a car which I declared sorn a few months ago. The MOT ran out as did the insurance and I had it parked on the driveway so not on public road.

 

However, I moved the car and parked it just outside my house, which was only to move something from the garage. I did not drive it. But then I had to go away suddenly for the day and stupidly did not park it back on the driveway, before I went. When I returned that night, I had a police notice stating that they were reporting my car to the DVLA.

 

I have reparked it on the drive.

 

I don't actually need to use the car right now and when I declared a Sorn expected not to drive it until end of Feb/beginning of March, so should I still wait until then to get it taxed?

 

I have now MOTed it and insured it in readiness for either my original plan of getting it taxed at end of Feb or to do it straight away due to the police ticket.

 

It has been about a week now and have been waiting for a letter from DVLA.

 

What will be the penalties and will this go to court and get a criminal record?

 

Thank you.

[Cindle]

Help Please!!!

My wife's car was parked in our drive, untaxed. While we were deciding what to do with it, I used it to block in our trailer and prevent it being stolen.

About 6 weeks ago, we suddenly had to use the trailer very quickly (I won't bore you with the reason). We moved the car out and got the trailer and off we went. We were only gone 1 hour maximum but returned to find a red ticket on the windscreen. It is headed "Police Warning Notice", "Vehicle Excise Duty". There is then a space to fill in the Reg number and the date of the 'offence'. The writing in both is totally illegible (I can only presume it is the carbon copy). On the bottom of the 'ticket' is a space for the date and signature. The signature is totally blank but the date has been filled in with pen (i.e. it's not a carbon copy, it's original).

About 2 weeks later, I received a letter from the DVLA saying my car was seen in such and such a road and gave the date and time. They want a £149.00 fine. (I am disabled and unfit to work. My wife is, owing to the fact of our two young children and the benefits system also unable to work.) The date matches with the 'ticket' but the road name is ½ mile away! I wrote to the DVLA and asked for proof as there was no way it could have been my car seen in that location. They wrote back and changed the road name where it was seen and included a photocopy of part of the ticket. I, in turn, wrote back and explained the circumstances of the car being on the road, how long it was there (offering neighbours as witnesses) and also explained my personal circumstances and how such a large fine would effect us). This morning, they have replied saying that there is no reason to change their decision and I must pay by the 12th April.

I have the option of taking this case to court. Given the fact that the original ticket is illegible and that they originally stated the wrong road, would I stand any chance of being successful in court? I really cannot afford to pay this fine.

Any help/advice would be very gratefully received.

Many thanks for reading this

Phil

[green_and_mean]

If the vehicle was not SORN'd it is still an offence and liable for a penalty.

 

What if you don't tax or make a SORN : Directgov - Motoring

[tifo]

We moved the car out and got the trailer and off we went. We were only gone 1 hour maximum but returned to find a red ticket on the windscreen. It is headed "Police Warning Notice", "Vehicle Excise Duty".

 

So you parked an untaxed car on a public road? Then they are right to have ticked you.

 

The fine of £149 may include 1) failure to tax a vehicle and 2) failure to display a valid tax disk or either or both. It's two separate offences.

 

Also, the car should have both MOT and insurance if parked on a public road, even when untaxed. They could add these offences if they wanted.

[Cindle]

Thanks for all the responses. Pretty much what I expected but still wanted to ask. Thank you.

[crem]

It's done now, but when situations like this happen to people, it always amazes me why the car was left out on the road for that hour! You know it is an offence, so why didn't you as briefly as possible, move the car out, get the trailer out, then put the car back?

 

That's still a technical breach of SORN, but the chances of getting caught doing that would be about zilch.

[green_and_mean]

So you parked an untaxed car on a public road? Then they are right to have ticked you.

 

The fine of £149 may include 1) failure to tax a vehicle and 2) failure to display a valid tax disk or either or both. It's two separate offences.

 

Also, the car should have both MOT and insurance if parked on a public road, even when untaxed. They could add these offences if they wanted.

 

It is most likely an £80 penalty and any back tax owed.

[sailor sam]

My take on this is quite simple; what if you had collided with someone while reversing the car off your drive? Sorry, but un-taxed cars (especially if we are talking more than 3 weeks out of tax) are a pet hate of mine. It usually means they are also un-insured which by the way, is a police matter not a DVLA one so count yourself lucky you are only facing a £149 fine because no insurance would be a lot higher plus penalty points.

 

__________________

Please Note

 

The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

 

I would always urge to seek professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

 

Please click my scales at the bottom of my profile window on the left if you found my advice usefull.

[lamma]

lack of mot does not invalidate insurance

[sailor sam]

lack of mot does not invalidate insurance

 

I must of missed where someone said it did?

[lamma]

no one did. its a common misconception so I posted. I should have posted "its a common misconception that lack of MOT invalidates insurance"

[green_and_mean]

no one did. its a common misconception so I posted. I should have posted "its a common misconception that lack of MOT invalidates insurance"

 

Its also a misconception that you cannot get pregnant if you have sex standing up!

[lamma]

and a common conception that you can

[odds]

So would it be a Holy conception if you had sex standing up at the back of the church ?

[sailor sam]

Come again?

[pin1onu]

Come again?

And if you can't come just breathe heavily....

[morgaine_kirsty]

The fine is for not having the tax. If you signed off on the car, the crushing is not punishment for the lack of tax, it is instead of you paying to have the car released.

 

If you don't pay the fine, the next step will be a court date and £1000 fine, so it's probably a good idea to just pay up.

 

hope this helps x

[tifo]

thanks, but since this happened 3 years ago, i paid the £75 fine at the time and the matter was closed.