Capquest in Ireland

[Apip]

Morning all,

 

Hope is well.

 

Well I finaly heard back from the solicitors here in Dublin.

 

The letter reads:

 

Dear Sir,

 

We attach herewith copy of the agreement as requested together with copy statments. You will not from the statments that the balance due is stg****.

This was the balance that was due when the account was closed. We have been advised by our client that the sum that the sum of stg **** has been repaid, leaving a balance of stg ****.

 

We await hearing from you by return,

 

Your faithfull,

 

 

****************

 

They have indeed enclosed the statments and the agreement for signing, which details the loan amount, monthly repayment amounts and my signiture.

 

Just wondering where I stand now.

 

Thanks in advance,

 

Pip

[ODC]

Hi Apip

 

Long time no hear. Is the letter from Craps solicitors or the local solicitor you went to see in Ireland.

[ScarletPimpernel]

Can you scan the agreement and post it, with personal details obscured?

[Apip]

Long time indeed. I have visions of some poor temp having to search throu paper docs dating back years to find this!

 

Scanner is down, but I'm going to head out and get scanned now and will post on my return.

 

Thanks,

[Apip]

ScarletPimpernel: I've just pm'ed you.

 

The letter is from solicitors over in here in Ireland acting on behalf of HSBC.

[ODC]

It would seem as if they havent got a CCJ so I wonder how they hope to enforce in Ireland.

[Apip]

Ah, I see (I think) They need to get a CCJ in the UK, and then they can come after me for payment? Would the CCJ prosses involve me having to apear in the UK for any reason?

[ODC]

That would be my view. Normally they can get a CCJ by using your last known address in the UK. However as you have told them you are now in Ireland this may not be an option. What did your Irish solicitor say.

[Apip]

Haven't spoken to them yet, as hadn't seen a need. They were not to sure on UK law you see.

[Apip]

ScarletPimpernel, Are you around, I didn't hear back after email?

[Apip]

I think we've lost the Pimpernel some where...

 

Thanks for your reply ODC: If I were living in the UK, and the bank had produced an agreement, after all the past CCa's ext what would be the procedure. Would they have go down the CCJ route?

 

I'm just wondering if I should tell HSBC's solicitor over here in Ireland to go fish and point out that this should be delt with thru the UK system, with it being a UK debt?

 

Also, Do I take it that now as they have produced an agreement that in one way or another I'll be having to pay the outstanding?

 

Thanks again in advance.

 

Pip

[ODC]

If they havent got a CCJ registered against you I dont see how they can hope to enforce this debt in Ireland.

[Apip]

So, next step for me would be to write back to the Irish solicitors acting on behalf of HSBc, and advise them that I still dispute the debt, and that it is my opinion that it should be delt with thru the UK system, as it is a UK debt.

 

And from this I take it that they will issue a County Court Claim from the UK to me here in Ireland, and after they will probable issue a CCJ for the amount.

[caledfwlch]

If I understand things correctly though, surely they CANNOT take you to a UK court for a CCJ, as you do not have a UK address to serve the petition against, and they know you do not, easily provable with all your letters from them addressed to your Irish address?

[Apip]

OH, so a CCJ can only be served to an address in the UK. Hence why they tried to take me thru the courts here in Ireland, and then realized they had no chance. ( I guess they know this now, as they did not serve me with a court date, just a letter saying I owe.....)

 

So I guess a polite go away letter to the Irish solicitors would be the 1st step.

[ScarletPimpernel]

I am still here, but problems with my satellite broadband caused me considerable difficulty with email, especially with attachments.

 

I'll have a trawl through when I get home and see if I can find the agreement; in the meantime, however, I think that ODC is right. I don't see how they can hope to enforce an agreement based upon English law in an Irish court.

 

I have recent experience (in the last few days), which leads me to believe, even more than I did before, that HSBC are chancers of the highest order. What's more, they will continue to threaten legal action that is bound to fail until the very last moment.

 

On the way home, I will give some thought to a suitable reply to the solicitors, and post again later.

[ODC]

I think HSBC are clutching at straws. They should have went for the CCJ when you were living in the UK. Ireland is a foreign country and English law does not apply. Similarly if you lived in Northern Ireland or Scotland the Insolvency and debt rules are different to England and Wales. Its my belief that action has to be taken according to the jurisdiction you reside in.

 

Of course HSBC in all their expensive TV adverts claim to be the Worlds Local Bank so you would think that they should be aware of the law regarding jurisdiction.

[ScarletPimpernel]

I regret to say that I can find no trace of the emailed agreement, though my email seems to be working properly again now.

[Apip]

I was guessing they knew they were in the wrong, when they 1st tried to take me to court over here in Ireland. Their tact has now changed to "would you mind paying the amount". A tact I'm sure will change in the future.

 

SP: I've re-emailed the agreement to you. Let me know if you don't get it for some reason.

 

Regards,

 

Phil

[ScarletPimpernel]

Thanks, Apip. Through the wonders of the iPhone, I now have it, and have looked at the agreement. It actually looks as if it may be enforceable, in that it has the prescribed terms and so on. One can only wonder why they didn't produce it when they were first asked for it - it might have saved considerable time and money (but then, it's only their customers' money - why should they care?).

 

However, I suspect that that is now academic, for all the reasons we've discussed, and if they have started asking you nicely to pay, they realise this too. You mention a statement which says 'early loan closure'; just for clarity, does this mean that you've actually paid back the loan, or that they terminated the account?

[ODC]

Like Colonel Pimpernel I too suspect that HSBC realise that they have sailed their boat up the proverbial creek minus the paddle. Now they are becalmed with no way to turn. You are no longer a UK resident so their chance of getting a CCJ against you in a UK Court is zero. As for enforcing the agreement in and Irish Court I also think they are similarly stuffed. I would be interested to hear a legal opinion on this. Obviously HSBC will not want to give up to easily and may try to flog this debt on to some lowlife DCA who will not be in the least bit concerned about the jurisdictions involved and issue all sorts of empty threats such as they have issued to SP.

[Allwood]

Have you tried this site for advice sometimes there are solicitors on the site that will advise you. Also BCW have offices in Ireland and Thames gets them to chase debts on their behalf.

 

Askaboutmoney.com

[ODC]

BCW and other lowlifes DCAs may have offices in Ireland and other places but this does not mean they have any legal powers to enforce a debt. If there is no judgement IMHO all they can do is ask for payment. They cannot use their usual threats of ifs and maybes.

[Allwood]

I totally agree BCW are so low - credit cards follows them around.

 

[surfaceagentx20]

ODC asked me to have a look at this case and I must say from the outset I have no experience of civil law and procedure in the ROI. Any advice I give is based upon an assumption that the courts of ROI will have adopted a procedure not dissimilar to that operating in England, though I am unable to confirm my assumption is true.

 

First as to jurisdiction, this claim concerns an agreement made in England between parties based in England at the time it was made and which is an agreement regulated by a UK Statute to be construed in accordance with English Law. Nothing has changed in the intervening years apart from the fact the debtor under the agreement now lives in ROI.

 

I would be surprised if the courts of ROI had no civil jurisdiction over a person domiciled in its territory. These proceedings are proceedings issued out of the courts of ROI for service upon a person domiciled in the ROI. The question is not so much do the courts of ROI have jurisdiction to try the case? (for I would suspect the courts there do), but rather are the courts of ROI the appropriate courts to determine the issue?

 

It seems to me the courts of ROI would not be incapable of determining the issue. The courts would be entitled to receive expert evidence from persons versed in the Laws of England concerning consumer credit to asssit in a determination. In other words, it would be for the OP to persuade the courts of the ROI that in its discretion whether to try the case, the question should be answered on the basis of forum non conveniens and that the better place to determine the issue is in an English court.

 

In English proceedings, where a person seeks to dispute the jurisdiction of the English courts he must not be seen to submit to the jurisdiction of the English courts. If he takes any step inconsistent with his claim the courts lack jurisdiction he is treated as having submitted to the jurisdiction and consenting to the courts trying the case. Such a person is required to acknowledge service of the proceedings in which he indicates that jurisdicion is contested and to then take out an applicaion for the court to determine the question whether it has jurisdiction or whether to entertain the case.

 

Assuming some similar procedure to exist in ROI, I would suggest the OP takes the route of disputing the jurisdiction but he will need to establish the precise procedure to be followed so as to achieve the desired decision.

 

x20