Beneficial Finance PPI Claim

[ANNALH]

Actually, thinking about it i dont need to amend my claim because the issues are still the same.

 

I am claiming return of all monies i have paid to them as they havent been able to provide default notice and the creit agreement they had to get from HFC was outside the statutory time limit so they cant change the fact they committed an offence. They now have to apply for a court order if they want to chase the debt which they probably wont in case they get fined for not having the correct paperwork before they started to collect.

 

I think i will just amend my case summary in my court bundle to highlight the fact the default notice was never received etc and claim back all monies i have paid to them.

[Laiste]

Hi Anna,

 

Ultimately, what you decide to do, or not do is a decision you have to take, but I would ask that you consider the following which is my experience in two cases.

 

In my case with Egg and HFC, both of them failed to supply the credit agreement in the requisite timescale, so both were guilty of committing a criminal offence. They both eventually supplied the agreement. Regardless of the fact that both had committed said offence, they each commenced legal action. I stated strenuously in my defence in both claims that they should not be allowed to proceed with enforcement of the debt(s) because a criminal offence had been committed in each case. It made absolutely no difference to them being able to go through the legal process. I raised the same issues again in each allocation questionnaire. The Judge didn't at any point halt proceedings in either case and tell each claimant that they needed to apply for a Court Order to enforce the debt! That's because if that were true, they would have had to apply for a Court Order before proceedings got under way, not at the trial! One of the primary objectives of Judges under the Civil Procedure Rules, is to save time and money. Believe me, there is no Judge in any civil Court that is going to sit back and wait until a trial to advise a party that they needed to apply for a Court Order to enforce the debt, that is simply nonsensical and a glorious waste of Court time and public money! If the Judge, having read your claim and theirs thought that they didn't have a claim, it would have been struck out long before now!

 

Once the agreement has been provided, the debt is enforceable. It is not enforceable for the period of time that it wasn't in your possession, as it should have been, but that's it. For the purposes of your case in the civil Court, it is irrelevant that they have committed a criminal offence! Civil courts deal with civil matters which means the criminal offence will not be dealt with by the Judge in your case. He/she has no power to impose fines because the offence is a criminal matter! He may frown upon the fact and question why it wasn't supplied in time but that is all, he will simply address the issue of whether or not there is an enforceable debt and in the absence of valid counter-arguments from you, he will uphold their claim!

 

You cannot claim repayment of all monies on the basis that you didn't receive the DN. It doesn't work like that. Your claim has to include sound legal reasons on the basis of common law/statute as to why you should be able to claim compensation, in a particular circumstance. From what you advised me your claim is based on, it does not accord with that sound legal basis.

 

A further argument which I forgot to include earlier is this. Creditors have the right to assign (sell) a debt to a 3rd party if they so wish. You have no such rights under the contract. It is an unfair contract term under the Consumer Contract Regulations 1999, where you have a situation where one party has a particular right under the contract but the other contracting party is denied the same rights. So in essence you could challenge the legal validity of the assignment under the Regs 1999, which will bring the whole assignment into dispute.

 

You cannot simply amend your claim by altering the case summary! There is a set procedure for making amendments.

 

In my honest opinion, if you proceed with your arguments as they stand, you are going to lose the case, for all the reasons I have stated. I have been through this twice and I am very familiar with what arguments won't hold water before a Judge. All I can do is give you my opinion based upon my experiences of the Court. This really is your decision though, after all advice is free and you are under no obligation to take it....!

 

Best wishes with whatever you decide!

 

Regards,

 

Laiste.

[ANNALH]

Hi Anna,

 

Ultimately, what you decide to do, or not do is a decision you have to take, but I would ask that you consider the following which is my experience in two cases.

 

In my case with Egg and HFC, both of them failed to supply the credit agreement in the requisite timescale, so both were guilty of committing a criminal offence. They both eventually supplied the agreement. Regardless of the fact that both had committed said offence, they each commenced legal action. I stated strenuously in my defence in both claims that they should not be allowed to proceed with enforcement of the debt(s) because a criminal offence had been committed in each case. It made absolutely no difference to them being able to go through the legal process. I raised the same issues again in each allocation questionnaire. The Judge didn't at any point halt proceedings in either case and tell each claimant that they needed to apply for a Court Order to enforce the debt! That's because if that were true, they would have had to apply for a Court Order before proceedings got under way, not at the trial! One of the primary objectives of Judges under the Civil Procedure Rules, is to save time and money. Believe me, there is no Judge in any civil Court that is going to sit back and wait until a trial to advise a party that they needed to apply for a Court Order to enforce the debt, that is simply nonsensical and a glorious waste of Court time and public money! If the Judge, having read your claim and theirs thought that they didn't have a claim, it would have been struck out long before now!

 

Once the agreement has been provided, the debt is enforceable. It is not enforceable for the period of time that it wasn't in your possession, as it should have been, but that's it. For the purposes of your case in the civil Court, it is irrelevant that they have committed a criminal offence! Civil courts deal with civil matters which means the criminal offence will not be dealt with by the Judge in your case. He/she has no power to impose fines because the offence is a criminal matter! He may frown upon the fact and question why it wasn't supplied in time but that is all, he will simply address the issue of whether or not there is an enforceable debt and in the absence of valid counter-arguments from you, he will uphold their claim!

 

You cannot claim repayment of all monies on the basis that you didn't receive the DN. It doesn't work like that. Your claim has to include sound legal reasons on the basis of common law/statute as to why you should be able to claim compensation, in a particular circumstance. From what you advised me your claim is based on, it does not accord with that sound legal basis.

 

A further argument which I forgot to include earlier is this. Creditors have the right to assign (sell) a debt to a 3rd party if they so wish. You have no such rights under the contract. It is an unfair contract term under the Consumer Contract Regulations 1999, where you have a situation where one party has a particular right under the contract but the other contracting party is denied the same rights. So in essence you could challenge the legal validity of the assignment under the Regs 1999, which will bring the whole assignment into dispute.

 

You cannot simply amend your claim by altering the case summary! There is a set procedure for making amendments.

 

In my honest opinion, if you proceed with your arguments as they stand, you are going to lose the case, for all the reasons I have stated. I have been through this twice and I am very familiar with what arguments won't hold water before a Judge. All I can do is give you my opinion based upon my experiences of the Court. This really is your decision though, after all advice is free and you are under no obligation to take it....!

 

Best wishes with whatever you decide!

 

Regards,

 

Laiste.

 

 

Now I am confused. What is the basis of my claim?

 

I do not understand what you were trying to tell me in your earlier post as this one seems to contradict everything you were saying.

 

Can you tell me how you worded your claim please?

 

Thanks

[Laiste]

Anna,

 

I have not contradicted myself at all!:o You started by asking which form you needed to fill in to amend your claim, then in your 2nd post you stated that you didn't feel you needed to amend your claim, as the issues were still the same! The arguments that I have put forward are not the same.Your comments were contradictory, in that you were saying firstly that you wanted to amend your claim and then you changed you mind!Which is why I sent the 2nd post, it was a reaction to your comments regarding your decision not to amend!

 

The wording of your claim has to be based on your exact circumstances, there is no point in me detailing the wording of my claim, because invariably material facts in my cases will be different from yours. There are a number of things you need to do with this claim, not solely amend it. Particular information has to be requested from the other party, an application notice will need to be filed with any amended claim and a letter included asking for the Court's permission to amend. If and when the other party fail to provide the info, a further app notice would need to be submitted to the Court, advising them of the other party's (hopefully) non compliance. Given the trial date, all these things have to be done quickly and unfortunately given constraints on my own time, it is simply not possible for me to take you through every step, by sending posts back and forth. I am happy to give you my contact details so we can go through it all, which will take much less time, but its simply impossible for me to do it this way!

 

Let me know what you want to do.

 

Laiste.

[ANNALH]

OK. This is how I am summarising my claim;

 

The basis of my claim

 

1.I had a loan account with HFC bank conducted on their standard terms and conditions which was subsequently sold to Wescot in December 2002 and a default registered against me. I was never informed a default would be registered or would go on my file, I did not receive any warning letters or a default notice. Bringing the contract to an end without giving me an opportunity to remedy the breach is unlawful to which I am entitled to claim damages.

In the case of Woodchester Lease v Swain & Co 1998 – regarding default notices which states that before a lender or hirer can take action against a debtor or borrower, a default notice has to be served. The default notice has to comply with the Act and the relevant regulations (Consumer Credit (Enforcement, Default and Termination Notices) Regulations 1993). If a default notice in the proper form is not served, the action cannot proceed. His Lordship said that if it was said that a consumer had broken the terms of the agreement, the consumer needed to know precisely what had been done wrong and what was needed to put matters right. The lender has the ability and resources to do this and, if it does not do so accurately, it is only right that it should not take the next step.

HFC and Wescot did not follow this procedure. The Court went on to say that an error that could be described as minimal might be overlooked, but the substantial inaccuracy in this case rendered the default notice ineffective, so the appeal should be allowed.

Tens, if not hundreds, of thousands of default notices are issued every day. This case illustrates how vitally important it is that any default notice is correct in form, as well as in substance.

 

2.I requested a copy of the original credit agreement, default notice and deed of assignment with a Consumer Credit Act request from Wescot on 10th July 2006.

Wescot did not comply with my CCA request within the statutory time limits and have therefore committed a criminal offence.

Wescot did not have a copy of any of these documents which they admitted in their letter dated 5th September 2006. They requested a copy of the credit agreement from HFC which was forwarded to me on 8th November 2006. Wescot have acted unlawfully by collecting money from me without first having the correct documents in place.

I am therefore claiming a refund of all monies I have paid to Wescot totalling £2207.42.

My claim also includes the request for removal of the default notice from my credit file.

 

3.Additionally the default amount includes penalty charges which also makes it invalid as it is not a true reflection of the amount owing. A default notice should not be issued with unlawful charges included.

 

4.The charges I refer to are those that were added to my account when the debt passed from HFC to Wescot. I have a closing statement from HFC which shows a balance of £2937.19 and an opening statement from Wescot which shows a balance of £4234.02.

The difference is £1296.83 which appears to have been added by Wescot.

Wescot have therefore breached OFT guidelines by adding on their own charges to the account which are a penalty unenforceable as contrary to common law. They are a disproportionate penalty charge added on with the intention to make a profit.

The HFC and Wescot have been invited to provide a breakdown of this charge but will not do so.

 

5.Also Wescot have not deducted payment made directly to HFC after Wescot purchased the debt of £234. I require these amounts to be deducted from the balance owing if it is found Wescot have a right to collect the outstanding debt.

[Laiste]

Hi Anna,

 

Is this the basis of the claim you that you have submitted, or what you intend to amend it to? Either way, I would strongly recommend that it is rewritten. You are not going to do yourself any favours with this submission in its present form.

 

Anna, I really do want to help you with this, but you seem very reluctant to discuss this matter other than on this site, which is fine, as long as you appreciate my position. I have imminent Court matters to deal with, as well as a family member who has been taken seriously ill suddenly.The bottom line is, what I would need to go through with you to put this claim right, might take a couple of hours tops on the telephone. Through this medium of sending posts, it will take days and I simply don't have that time available. I have offered my help, but, if for whatever reason you cannot or will not communicate other than on here, then I'm very sorry I will not be able to assist you further with this.

 

Laiste.

[ANNALH]

Just got home to find a letter from Wescot saying that it doesnt matter that they didnt have the documents before collecting money from me and their papertrail will satisfy the court etc etc.

 

But however they will accept my offer of withdrawal with no costs to either party.

[Laiste]

The papertrail is academic if you are proceeding with the withdrawal! As you are obviously not amending your claim, continuing with it in the absence of any legal merit is a pointless exercise. Withdrawing is the only logical option. You are fortunate that they are prepared to conclude the case without costs.

 

If you contemplate legal action in the future, I would strongly recommend doing plenty of legal research beforehand to be absolutely sure that there is a legal basis to the claim. Or seek advice from a solicitor.

[maybelline]

hello, I found this thread interesting because I have some agreement problems with HFC, Westcot? and Capquest, my thread is maybelline v HFC, can anyone offer any suggestions? any advice gratefully received.:)

[ANNALH]

Wescot are now being very helpful because they want me off their back.

They have provided a detailed breakdown of the charge-off from HFC and it would seem the discrepancy was charges added by HFC not Wescot, so they are off the hook and i have agreed to withdraw my claim against them.

 

I will not contact HFC to dispute these charges.

[caro]

What exactly are the charges?

[ODC]

Subscribing

[ANNALH]

It seems to be some small charges they added on at some point, and not a collection charge (apparentely). I am sending a letter to HFC this week on the assumption that the 3 amounts of around £200 each are penalty charges/collection charges (Wescot told me they were charges) and the difference was an interest adjustment from date of charge off to date debt was sold.

[ANNALH]

OK. I figured out that the amount sold to wescot was £3177 which was amount of loan outstanding plus intrest accrued up till date of sale, and £1200 which must be all charges HFC have added.

 

I sent LBA to HFC last week asking for it to be repaid, they have until next Tuesday to reply or I am filing a claim. when i claimed against them before their solicitors, DG settled very quickly and sent the payment to Wescot to reduce the balance owing. Can i request them send it to me this time?

 

Hopefully then i can agree a settlement figure with Wescot which will be less than the settlement from HFC would be. Whereas if they sent the settlement to Wescot to reduce the balance they would then want a settlement on the balance owing, so i would be worse off if you see what i mean.

[ANNALH]

Well HFC responded on the 6th day to tell me they are investigating. I wrote again today to say if i dont have their reply in full by 8th March I shall be starting court action, as i have done previously with this account. That should make them think.

[ANNALH]

As I havent had a reply from Wescot to my offer of settlement i wrote again today to remind them my offer is still open and could they reply as i had been good enough to withdraw my claim.

[ANNALH]

517.63 of that £1200 could be the collection charged (based on 16.3% of the total defaulted amount) so that would scan with 3 x 200 charges (which you don't know what they are) to make the £1200.

 

You need to find out what those £200 charges are - how are they listed/specified by wetcot/hfc ?

 

Thats the thing, they were listed like this;

 

charge off figures are:

240.00+116.79+180.69+307.04=1200.83+3177.19=4378.02

 

4378.02 - 144.00 paid since charge off = bal sold 4234.02

 

Wescot told me that the £3177.19 is the balance due with interest accrued to date of charge off, and everything else was charges HFC added on before selling the debt.

[ODC]

Thats the thing, they were listed like this;

 

charge off figures are:

240.00+116.79+180.69+307.04=1200.83+3177.19=4378.02

 

4378.02 - 144.00 paid since charge off = bal sold 4234.02

 

Wescot told me that the £3177.19 is the balance due with interest accrued to date of charge off, and everything else was charges HFC added on before selling the debt.

Methinks Westcon speak with forked tongue

[ANNALH]

Methinks Westcon speak with forked tongue

 

What do you mean?

[maybelline]

this expression means not telling the truth, assuming this is a genuine question and not sarcasm:)

[ANNALH]

I have just realised that HFC added on Credit Protection Insurance of £1236aswell. I have the original agreement which was arranged over the phone and on the form these boxes are ticked.

Same as for my Egg loan whan I got into trouble made redundant they never told us to claim on this insurance - I want it back!

[caro]

I'm not sure if they are obliged to remind you to claim on the insurance, but if they added it on to your loan at the start, or mis-sold it to you, you might well have a case. Check out the PPI forum for information on claiming this back.

[ANNALH]

OK. I have had 2 replies from HFC stating that I signed the legal agreement to confirm I understood the loan agreement and PPI Insurance etc...

 

I have told them that the fact i signed it does not prove I UNDERSTOOD it... only that I understood where I had to sign in order for the funds to be released! Im losing patience with them - any suggestions?

 

I filed a claim online a few days ago. They are keen to keep telling me they dont want to refund my PPI...well at least they are communicating, unlike other banks!

[ANNALH]

HFC filed a defence to my PPI claim but it was in defence to bank charges!

 

I have read that a bank has done this before and they got their defence struck out but cant remember which thread it was - can anyone remember?

 

I have submitted a claim for their defence to be struck out but have not heard anything yet.

[ANNALH]

Hi There,

This thread is all about PPI now - can a mod please move it to the PPI section for me and maybe change the heading to "Beneficial Finance PPI claim"?

 

I am in court next Tuesday for a hearing about whether the court will accept their new defence. (The first one they filed was in relation to bank charges - silly BF). I had asked for it to be struck out and the hearing is to make a decision on that. Some advice for my hearing next week would really be appreciated!

 

Many thanks