Halifax charges - update

[Bovvered]

Ok I decided to start a new thread in here because this got mixed up in my other thread (over in Other institutions as I have a Nationwide account to sort as well.

 

Here is the OP which many of you responded to and greatly encouraged me.

 

I am a single mum of four who has struggled to stay afloat with no help from kids' dad, just a small medical pension and child tax credit.

 

I was left with a lot of debt after my divorce, which is being managed by a debt councelling charity (free of charge), and out of my weekly income of £150, I have to pay £35 towards my debts. After all my outgoings I have a little over £50 per week on which to feed my family of 4 teenage boys.

 

On Saturday I received a letter from Halifax advising me that two direct debits had gone unpaid, one for £3.99 and the other for £9.45. The letter advised that they would charge me £39 for each unpaid DD, plus if my account went more than £30 o/d I would be charged another £28.00.

 

Well first thing yesterday morning I went into my local branch and asked for leniency as the charges seemed to me excessive in the extreme. I was told they would cancel one charge 'as a gesture of goodwill', but would not cancel the other, which will be taken from my account on Thursday of this week.

 

I explained to her if they did that, I would be left with the grand sum of only £11 to buy food for the week for a family of 5, and there was no way I could possibly manage that, so ti sum up, if I buy my shopping tomorrow as usual, my account will be thrown into overdraft of £40 and I will then be charged unauthorised O/D fee as well, which will have a knock effect next week. I have had 4 bank charges like this since I opened the account in 2004, (including these recent ones) and two of them have been cancelled as goodwill gestures. I really don't know what to do next. Do I take action against them now for the two amounts they didn't refund (bearing in mind there will be more once the start kicking in their unauth O/D fees?

 

Problem is my money is paid in not just monthly: I get child benefit on Mondays, tax credit on Wednesdays and pension end of month.

 

Since yesterday's meeting at the bank, I was furious and found this site, and now realise I could do something about it

Well I have applied online for a Barclays bank account (on Monday) and am wondering if I should wait till I get another bank account or not, as there is not a lot of money tied up in this claim, maybe I should just get on with it?

 

What do people think - should I just go ahead and write to them the standard letter now, or wait till I have a new bank account (if I get one).

[Bovvered]

My plan at the moment is to commence refund request as soon as I have a back up bank account in place should I need one. They are due to take another charge from my account today, but they haven't as yet. You know I'm almost willing to bet they are waiting to end of business today just incase I take out money and then they can slap on another charge - I will let you know if they do that.

[BankFodder]

Can you let us know how much the bank has from you in charges?

 

Also, I would suggest very strongly that you do not close your Halifax account. If you do get a new account keep it running as well.

[Bovvered]

It's not a lot - I had 4 charges over the last 18 months and the first time they cancelled one (about a year ago) and this week they cancelled one, leaving 2 x £39.00. So part of me thought I couldn't claim back because it was too small an amount, but after the way they handled my situation this week, knowing the implications to my family budget if they took the other charge, and smugly stating that if that set my account into O/D they would charge me again, I saw red, and that's when I found this site. So I guess around £78 so far...

[Bovvered]

Ok I've done it. I decided not to worry too much about waiting for a new account (I have a savings account elsewhere, so if push comes to shove, I can use that for my income payments, but it has no DD facilities).

 

I won't of course close my Halifax Account (never intended to, but was afraid they might close it out of spite.)

 

Any how, I have used the letter downloaded from the Daily Mail and am getting ready to put it in the post. Here's the letter I sent:

 

my address

 

9 March 2006

Halifax PLC

Where I live

 

 

 

Dear Sir/Madam

 

Penalty & unfair charges – request for refund for XXXXXX ACCOUNT NUMBER: XXXXXXXX

 

 

(Details of charges and what they were for here)

 

 

I am of the view that your charges represent a penalty and are therefore irrecoverable at common law. In the Scottish case of Castaneda and Others v. Clydebank Engineering and Shipbuilding Co., Ltd. (1904) 12 SLT 498 the House of Lords held that a contractual party can only recover damages for actual or liquidated losses incurred from a breach of contract. This is also the position in English law: Dunlop Pneumatic Tyre Co Ltd v New Garage and Motor Co Ltd [1915] AC 79.

 

Your charges do not reflect any actual loss, instead they appear to represent a lucrative profit-making scheme. In particular, charges were applied after I entered into a transaction(s) without sufficient funds in my account. However, payment was declined by you, and therefore, actual loss is the cost of automatically sending me a computer generated letter. I would respectfully submit that is valued at no more than 50 pence.

 

UK banks have recently given evidence to the House of Commons Treasury Committee on how bank charges are calculated: "The costs are going to pay for all the people we have who pursue debt, collect debt, speak to customers and chase payments. The way these charges are arrived at is by taking these total costs and making some assumptions about the volume that is going to come through to arrive at the individual charges" (2nd report, 25 January 2005, paragraph 50).

 

Accordingly, the charges applied to my account are not a reasonable pre-estimate of the bank’s loss in relation to my account. No-one has had to look at my account or telephone me. No one has had to collect anything. Your charges would appear to represent a device to recover global losses (for example, loan defaulters, bad debt write off, including commercial lending in, and outwith, the UK).

 

On a separate note, your charges appear to represent an unfair term of contract which is contrary to the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999 (SI. 1999/2083). My account falls within the ambit of Regulation 5 of the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999 as I am a consumer. Your charges constitute an unfair penalty under reference to paragraph 1(e) of schedule 2 of the said regulations:

 

‘Indicative and non-exhaustive list of terms which may be regarded as unfair - 1. Terms which have the object of effect of - (e) requiring any consumer who fails his obligation to pay a disproportionately high sum in compensation’.

 

0n 26 July 2005 the OFT stated that 'a charge is likely to be disproportionately high if it is more than a court would be likely to award if the lender sued the cardholder for breach of contract'. Because your charges include a large profit margin, in addition to actual loss, they are irrecoverable as an unfair term in contract. I believe that your charges require me to pay a disproportionately high sum in compensation for incurring a transaction(s) which was ultimately declined by an automated computer system.

 

In addition, it is unfair to require me to subsidise your global debt recovery costs and debt write-off.

 

Please refund these charges to my account within the next 7 days. I reserve the right to commence court proceedings without any further notice.

 

Yours faithfully

 

 

 

(My sig) BOVVERED

 

Will let you know how it goes

[Bovvered]

Posted this afternoon

[SPARKY100]

Bovvered,

 

What the bank are doing to you is quite shocking. I've just read the story to my wife, and she has been pretty cool about going for the Halifax, but not so now.

 

Keep strong, stand your ground and go for it! I remember a time when the Halifax was much less corporate, much more caring, and a damn site more understanding....when they were a building society!!

[Bovvered]

Thanks for your comments Sparky. Well sure enough the bank did take the other £39 and left me with well, less than £11 for the week. So we have had to rely on what was in the fridge with top ups of milk and bread - definitely a blue stripe week I'd say and I'll need to dip in to Monday child benefit (which usually covers petrol and electric) for a grocery top up.

 

I need to check the faqs to see if the 7 days I gave them has to be working days so I know which day to begin court action. I just bet they are gonna call my bluff, I mean do they seriously believe a 'dumb' single mum would actually file a claim against them in court, really!! Well, Halifax...you just betcha!!

[BankFodder]

The time limits you give them with our templates are not working days. They are just days. If the banks want to benefit from the full delay they are being offered then they had better start coming in to work on Saturday's and Sundays.

[Bovvered]

Thanks - so I will be ready for Friday then...

[Bovvered]

Got my luvverly standard letter and leaflet from Halifax today. Well they've got 24 hours, then it's off to moneyclaim we go...

[Bovvered]

Just about to fill in the online claim form but need to ask:

 

As I already had the bank statements I didn't request the dpa.

 

I have had two sets of 2 charges for unpaid dds, one set last April, another set 2 weeks ago.

 

Each time, after I received the letter from the bank advising me of the charges, (I got one letter with two charges on each time), I went into the local branch and challenged them. Each time they refunded one charge 'as a gesture of goodwill' but went ahead and took money out of my account for the other one.

 

What I am worried about is if they can turn around and tell the courts this was 'manual intervention'. If that is the case, and the judge accepts that I am in trouble.

 

Any thoughts please?

[BankFodder]

No - don't worry. That is not the manual intervention which they pretend to refer to.

[Bovvered]

Phew...that's a relief, thanks

[Roof]

Hi

I am new onto the forum after getting advice off of Martins money tips.

 

Ihave printed the form to try & get my charges back from the Halifax, which have added upto around £800 in under 3 yrs - I have teenage children who are still at school and can ill afford paying these charges - the least money you have the more they charge you and the deeper you get in debt.

 

Lets hope I can get this money back and then I can pay some of the debt off of my credit card!!!!!!!!! its a hard life if you don't weaken ;^)

[Bovvered]

edited - thanks for clarifying richard!

[richardc]

Hi

I am new onto the forum after getting advice off of Martins money tips.

 

Ihave printed the form to try & get my charges back from the Halifax, which have added upto around £800 in under 3 yrs - I have teenage children who are still at school and can ill afford paying these charges - the least money you have the more they charge you and the deeper you get in debt.

 

Lets hope I can get this money back and then I can pay some of the debt off of my credit card!!!!!!!!! its a hard life if you don't weaken ;^)

 

Please start yoyr own thread

[Bovvered]

OK, just finished sorting out all and filling in the stuff to lodge with the County Court tomorrow - I hope I didn't forget anything:

 

Done my N1 claim form

Done my EX160 exemption application

Enclosed copies of bank statements/letters

 

Hope so anyway!!

[BankFodder]

Pardon me saying, didn't you start your claim on the 9th March? That's the date of this thread anyway.

If that's right isn't maybe a little bit quick off the mark? Up to you, of course but there is some advantage in showing willing to the court.

[Bovvered]

Well obviously I want to do this right. I got the letter re charges from the bank dated 2nd March. I went in to see the bank manager to ask for charges to be refunded on Monday 6th March. They refunded one of the charges.

 

I posted the letter (quoted 5th post on this thread) on 9th March. That letter gives them 7 days).

 

I received reply from them letter dated 15th March, saying they have referred my complaint to the customer relations department and also sent me a leaflet about how they handle complaints. They have said they will deal with my concerns as quickly as possible and have given me a telephone number.

 

Should I hold back then at this stage for a bit longer? Maybe give them a call?

 

I'm worried because as the letter gives them 7 days, (I guess I should have given them 14 days, but it was like that on the template), I should act on it, otherwise they may think I'm not serious?

 

I dunno, I don't want to mess this up. I am happy to give them more time if that would be the right thing to do...

 

Would value your thoughts on this, thanks

[Bovvered]

I think I got confused between the preliminary letter and the letter before action. I guess the next stage would be the letter before action asking them to pay up within 14 days or I will commence proceedings...and I guess I should send it now (my letter gave them 7 days and it is now 11 days)...??

[BankFodder]

never break a deadline.

[Bovvered]

Ok I will post it tomorrow

[Bovvered]

Oh man!! What do I do?? - the letter I sent is almost the same as the LBA!! I can't send them another one - that would make me look really stupid! I guess I'm gonna have to proceed with the original plan.

 

I think what Imay have to do is give them a 'last chance to respnd' call tomorrow on the number they gave me and if no joy, go ahead and lodge the claim at the county court...

 

[BankFodder]

Lodge the claim