ms_smith
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As in the title. Hopefully this time someone will provide me with specific answer without flaffing about...
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Unfair, Wrongful or Constructive dismissal?
ms_smith replied to lindyhop's topic in Employment and minimum wage problems
The next hearing will anyway be heard by another judge so there's no need to ask for such a change. I am really sorry to write this but I can almost feel this judge's perception. He's being a bit cynical, a bit straightforward but I will only blame the system - which allows the public to assume any layman will be given special treatment. Nope. Represent yourself? Make sure you know what to say or do in court otherwise you loose. -
Unfair, Wrongful or Constructive dismissal?
ms_smith replied to lindyhop's topic in Employment and minimum wage problems
lindyhop, what are you claiming for the time being before ET? My point was to take on a rep (can actually even be a friend or a family member) for the whole of duration of the process. It all has got to do with the judges' perception thingy - can't really do much about it but the fact is that when they see someone claiming DD and enrolling a rep to defend their case, they feel more compassionate towards such claimants. When you submitted application for DD claim, what incident(s) exactly you referred to, let's clarify. -
Yep, let's concentrate on the case. I see you have a hell of a case - in terms of preparation for it - and so to defend it during CMD. I don't agree that CMDs are not for defending your claim. CMD, as the name suggests, specifies how the route of the claim will go so if you don't give a damn at CMD, why the judge should? For example, on application from the other side, CMD can strike out any respondents, without even going into PHR. Again, I would sit down, draft and apply for permission to re-submit the claim again, but this time referring to all the mischief they have thrown at your friend. It all has to be a concise picture of your friend's case and what they had done to him. It might help to bulletpoint their forms of harassment on a separate piece of paper and then transfer everything into logical legal framework. As for unfair dismissal case law, search for fabricated statements against a dismissed employee (I'm sure I read about at least one such a story in media, not through a typical case law summary, but I bet there are some existing out there) and where the employer behaves in such a way to get rid of employee covered under DDA because they don't want to pay him sick leave any longer. The judge(s) will need to see your determination to prove your case set out in the claim. And they will make a decision based upon your determination and confidence that after his work colleagues will give evidence, your claim will prove correct. You need to make a list of who you will bring as witnesses because these people already agreed to testify (but not including actual respondents as they are witnesses anyway; perhaps the manager of the blocks of flat can serve as a witness to confirm the claimant got on well with her - so that you could draw interference before tribunal that your friend would have no reason or interest to break their positive relations). You also need to make an evaluation how many days the hearing will last based upon above cross-examinations. So you can see there is a lot of work involved. I see this may be daunting or time consuming if you work yourself, but not impossible. It really appears to me that by admitting that "the procedure wasn't followed", their lawyers ARE trying to frame your friend even further - into something that never took place but they will want to argue that should the procedure was followed, the outcome would have been the same. Which is only to wear your friend down emotionally, so push push push with these claims of harassment through fabricated allegations!! When the manager of the block of flats complained, what happened next? How the complaint was resolved? Is this clinical depression connected with your friend's former place of work? I might have missed that info but would like to clarify it...
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No, she wasn't. It was pure rant on her side. I wrote (and you quoted that yourself), "quite in a patronising manner". You have missed that bit.
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I quoted your response only, therefore was replying to you specifically, haven't you noticed? How do I call such people like you... saboteurs! But, nevertheless, you are being excused - while being mad you don't realise your own flaws so I don't dare to expect you will understand others (I refer to the ET process, in overall, not myself).
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You reminded me of that receptionist in the county court where I recently went so as to only observe someone else's hearing. I expressed such a wish but instead of referring me to a case supervisor, she started her litany, quite in a patronising manner, as to what happens if one thinks about bringing a claim to CC. I did my best and listened to her politely while refraining from laughing (as I knew these things already) but wasn't she missing the point of my request? A simple request requires simple response - simple as. At some point I swear she was ready to say "No, you cannot observe ay hearing! Who you think you are!" but I noticed two being listed for that day just next to her on the nearby wall so continued and eventually succeeded in my mission ! She should have left her impressions to herself but she made a stupid cow of herself instead. In front of me.
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Lol! That's what bunnies like me call it a fighter's spirit. Look, the case is complicated, that's for sure. And not a typical one for EAT to hear it but that's how the cookies crumble - every case in court will be different, every law student will tell you. Maybe there wasn't a case like this before because there were no such circumstances happening at the same time together before? Therefore, it would constitute a precedent. If that's not enough, there is likely to be another (!) precedent in the case - in terms of another possible bias as to which judge or member should or shouldn't sit in the panel (Court of Appeal has already widely expressed their position in this regard). It worries me that some of you know only the general bits of the case but rush to full unreserved judgement. Do you judge people in this way all the time or is it a temporary disorder?
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Hiya, I think I would seek to amend the claim as to that myriad of lies - to put it blantly, that it is a bloody fabrication of allegations to further harass your friend. It has to be all white and black in court papers. If your friend says he didn't do any of these things, then why should anyone turn to areas of employer's reasonability in conducting the grievance process? The more you allow the other side lawyers to shriek (love your description!) about this Polkey, the more you allow them to convince judges that there was something your friend is simply not confessing to. Allegations have been fabricated and there is not a single line of your friend's signature on any minutes that would usually follow in such circumstances. End of.
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Unfair, Wrongful or Constructive dismissal?
ms_smith replied to lindyhop's topic in Employment and minimum wage problems
lindyhop, I am sorry to read about what have happened to you but I would seriously advise asking someone to represent you. Have you tried enquiring with pro bono solicitors? Judges are ready to be sympathetic to those developing depression as a result of work issues but they need to get to the point of confidence of such findings in the first place. If you take a representative now, you can ask the judge to revise his decisions based upon your earlier lack of actions or their delay. From what I read from all sorts of judgements, judges tend to look strangely at those who claim DD but still represent themselves in court. It just doesn't straightforwardly click to judges that there may be a genuine case. -
So it is to be put before High Court, isn't it?
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If they do or say things they weren't authorised to do or say.
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Guys, guys, guys! I appreciate all your out-of place advice (because it will help others, not us, yet thanks again) but for god's sake, you are wasting your own time trying to teach an old dog new tricks. Just out of curiosity, how many claims out of those 9 in 10 were pursued by unrepresented claimants? If you were yourself engaged in the process as unrepresented claimants, do you recall all those informal chats with court clerks? Well, if I were these clerks, I would be very careful what to say to any party before any hearing. They may have good intentions, but they may as well accidentally throw a party into a legal track of prejudice towards the process. After all, it is them who are the middle point between you and the judges.
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Right, in short it started off with the court staff but the implications of her (illegal - we know only today) actions were spread along further process, namely had direct effect on particular stages of the process.
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altobelli, I call it a dereliction of duty with serious, long term implications for the process but you don't learn about it until the process is completely over. The staff should know what they are doing, they work for that system on a daily basis and were informed about their expected code of practice when they started.
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I bet system offered to the public works better anywhere else than in Yorkshire region.
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Yes, I realize you would prefer to know exactly what went wrong to form an opinion. But for the time being, sorry, I have to research for information which courts deal with claims arising from ETservice' mishandling the case. It's not the case of lawyers disagreeing with me. It's just one having been too lazy or scared (?) to take on a straightfoward case with a merit, the other not getting to the bottom of the problem enough and so - loosing. I see your point about the same outcome option, but... No. Determination to pursue one's case is everything in court. If one is being approached by the staff as to the judges' specific and unusual intention towards the process (and there is law that may allow this to happen), if it wouldn't happen in the first place, the course of proceedings would have been different because there would be no shift in determination to prove one's case. If that makes sense... Thanks for your input all.
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I am talking about a completely flawed ET process on the part of staff and direct implications for the rest of the process, employment issues have nothing to do with it here. Thanks, I skip lawyers since I saw one dismissing obvious case, and another dismissing himself from the case (when it's me who provided missing legal argument).
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A complaint to ET already was issued in the meantime, they investigated, apologised but harassment continued. Appeal in progress. GP gave opinion - mild depression in connection to proceedings. Is High Court the one to submit such claims? Becky, you say the prejudice cannot be a reason. But what if that prejudice (fuelled by C.o.C. Act) determines one's determination to pursue (or not) their case? Employment Tribunals may be less formal in the way hearings are conducted but the process around it is the same like in a formal court. It's not a playground where orders to build a sandcastle are given (well, at least not directly, lol).
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Uh-hm, but where such a complaint can get anyone to? Damages already been done.
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Sorry, dear caggers, if I sounded a bit aggressive. It just shocks me to the bone that people go to court to sue their employers but cannot do it because a t**t decides to hijack their perception. Becky, I refer to Contempt of Court and Protection from Harassment Acts. Claim of personal injury and compensation over damages.
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Seriously. I am not talking about a clerk forgetting to put a letter before the judge on one or two occasions. I am talking about staff prejudicing the attitide towards the whole of the process to the point that the case is damaged and later lost. Claim involves psychiatric injury so that would be personal injury claim (?). All backed by law that clearly supports above case. Where do we start?
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With reference to the comments of recording: The EJ stated that the Tribunal was not subjected to the Court and CPR Rules except I believe he mentioned rule 60. He said the Tribunal has its own rule totally different from what is followed by the Court. In the Court you can request for Transcript so that any conduct/misdemeanour of a Judge can easily be identified and where necessary escalated to the appropriate channel for redress. I guess you can record court hearings in US but definitely not in the UK. http://www.guardian.co.uk/law/2011/sep/09/contempt-case-pensioner-released Other than that http://www.courtsni.gov.uk/en-GB/Services/recordings-of-proceedings/Pages/default.aspx At the PHR the Employer was ordered to open up documents. When this order was not complied with the Claimant wrote the Tribunal that the employer refused to comply and requested for another CMD/PHR. The Employer Lawyer firmly objected that it would be disproportionate. The Tribunal then responded that during the substantive hearing the issue should be raised. The Tribunal then overruled the order at the PHR. When the Claimant found out all the evidence he required to prove his case was being refused or over rule he made that comments that the Tribunal were biased. Who ordered the employer to open the docs following PHR? You or the judge presiding PHR? Unless there are unusual circumstances (contempt of court on the part of tribunal staff from before CMD or PHR is just an extreme example) you cannot just order another CMD or PHR. This is the process that goes as it goes, step by step, every time taking its toll or creating opportunities to gather more evidence. You have to be very skilled and careful to make sure you have got in hand what you need for the main hearing. Are you sure the judge wrote back about raising the issue during the main hearing? The case: Racial Discrimination as one head and Unfair Dismissal as the other head. RR65 was completed requesting information such as training, promotion and pay data for comparators. The Employer refused to provide answers to these questions and other crucial information to help the Claimant formulate his case more effectively. They only responded to questions that appeared to help their case. They usually do so, I'm afraid. When the Claimant wrote the tribunal for the Employer to respond to those crucial information they refused to respond to, the Employer responded back to the Tribunal that they were fully aware for providing evasive answers. In the information they disclosed they refused to disclose names of Comparators but instead provided several codes for each question relating to Comparators so that you cannot identify any comparator or find any trend. For instance Comparator named as Code 11 does not uniquely tie that code to a comparator but only to that question. Code 11 in another question is another Comparator. So you can not form any unique information from Comparator Code 11 Did you claim in your ET1 specificly who you were discriminated against - by mentioning names of other employees?
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He may be racist, may be - not [EDIT]. My advice is: keep an eye and a diary on him - what, when and what time he says or does something and who has witnessed that. He shouldn't have spoken to you like that, that's for sure.
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Maybe they have run out of other sizes at the time and only the biggest ones were left? Have you thought about that? How can you prove they had smaller sizes at hand, new, ready to be given away?
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