Is this explained in more detail in another thread or case? This would apply to another debt I have which is being chased by another DCA, who are adding interest, where they shouldn't and not sending me any info at all!

Oh, and sorry I forgot to say thanks to postggj and car2403 for the prompt responses to my thread.

No termination notice recieved, but the text on the DN stated the account 'will be terminated' if payment not recieved within specified timeframe. Yes the DCA's are demanding full balance, which is the same as the arrears on the account (it's been over 3 years of me making only token payments of £1).

Wow, if I am reading this correctly - if the DN amount is wrong, then the DN is invalid. Does this mean they have defaulted the account in error, ie they should not have terminated the account? In this instance is it worth saying to GM that the DN is invalid and I am willing to offer F&F to have the default reversed?

I am sorry if this is covered elsewhere, but I have been catching up on many threads over the past two days and I cant find a conclusive answer to my questions. If anyone can direct me to other threads where this is cover it will be greatly appreciated. My problem: Serously ill for 6 years, not working etc. I have been making token payments to GM account for 3.5 years. 6 months ago DN issued, for past 3 months hounded by 2 DCA's, NGP solicitors and a doorstep collector. I am in the process of responding to all DCa letters etc, but my disability limits the time I can waste sorting this out. It is also difficult to keep up with who is harassing me just for this debt! I am unable to make payments, but a family member wants to offer a F&F to get them off my back. I want to be in a position to negotiate. In June 2010, over a year ago, I sent a SAR request (I have more than one debt with this creditor) and I recieved very limited info, no copy of agreement, no terms and conditions just statements and some screen prints which showed nothing of any relevance. I have charges on the account for late payment, and I think the minimum payments were calculated incorrectly (less than 2% as stated on rear of original statement), I think the interest was also overcharged. I believe all of these would mean the actual amount on the DN is invalid. In fact the amount on the DN is for the whole debt! Also I have not recieved statements for over 18 months. I assume the account has been terminated by GM as the DCA's are requesting full payment, and the terms on the DN stated account would be terminated if payment not received. 1st DCA's solicitor, and 2nd DCA (who is working for the 1st DCA!) have both offered 30% discount which is still more than can be paid by family member. My question is, if the amount on the DN is wrong, does this render the DN invalid? I think I understood that in the past if this happened the creditor was only entitled to claim the actual arrears to the date of the DN and not those quoted. From more recent posts it appears that the account can be reopened, and that it was not properly closed or terminated due to a faulty DN. Is this true? What are the cases which specify this? My concern is if i try to negotiate with one of the factors as an invalid DN then I may not be helping myself if they can reopen account and reissue a valid DN. Many thanks Me_too

As a brief introduction to my situation: I have been ill and not working for over 5 years. I am disabled and on Incapacity Benefit, highly unlikely to be able to return to work for many years, if at all. For the first 2 years of being ill and not working, I struggled until 3 years ago, when all the money ran out, I found this site and contacted CCCS. I was advised to go bankrupt but this was not an option (for reasons I am unable to explain). The alternative was to offer token payments, administered by myself which I duly did. For the past 3 years, I have managed to, with great help from this site to keep most of the creditors at bay. I have over 10 creditors, the total debt 3 years ago was approx £60k (!) Yes it is a lot, but when working I had a great job and there was no problem in making payments each month. The debt was totally my own fault and I accept that. It was due to unexpected circumstances my situation and life and health changed dramatically. At no time have I tried to avoid paying my debts, I have just had no money to be able to pay them. I was shocked (as many others have been) at the treatment and harassment I have endured from nearly all of the creditors starting within weeks a few weeks of updating them of my severity of my health situation. The stress caused by the constant harassment and complete disrespect of my health, was severely detrimental to my disability and yet I could do nothing. With the help of this site I have managed to deter the calls, and I have only once (so far!) been taken to court. Ironically it was for the smallest debt of £400 which was mostly PPI charges. (Cohen’s/Debenhams and dropped at the last minute!) The big boys are yet to go through with their threats of court and excessive costs – maybe as I have no assets? A couple of months ago, I received an amount of money which will cover up to 20% of my original debt, and I am in the process of creating F&F settlement offers for all of my creditors. As I was expecting this ‘windfall’ over a year ago, I had started some research into the status of my various accounts. I have made DPA requests for about half of the accounts, (bundles received are vastly incomplete and DPA battles are ensuing). I have requested for about half of my accounts, copies of my credit agreements / T&C’s etc, and yet again I have not been provided with any which fulfill their obligations (i.e. photo copies of application forms, with no prescribed terms and no T&C’s which could even pretend to be the originals). So far I have not received any ‘reconstructed’ credit agreements, just really poor copies of microfiche application forms. I have been trying to establish PPI charges (only one account), late payment fees (ALL accounts) and interest charged etc. I am in a position to pay up to 20% of the original debts and I intend to pro-rata the amount offered to each based on the actual debt as at May 2008 - when making my offers for F&F settlement. This is the start of my F&F journey. I hope there are some of you who will help me find my way…….

Hi, I am in a situation in which I am not sure as what to do and would like to see if anybody has been in a similar situation. Most of my other CC accounts were defaulted back in late 2008/early 2009 however last week I have received a default notice from HFC for a GM card (now trading as Beneficial). The original debt was approx £2000, and I have not made full payment for approx 34 months. The arrears amount is now approx £2800, which is higher than the original debt which I had in May 2008 when I first started making token payments of £1. My other defaults are now already 2 years old, so I am keen to prevent this one being added so late after the start of my inability to make full payments under the agreement. I am also a bit surprised as I have not received any statements from GM Card for about 2 years (I am unable to locate my letters at the moment, but all letters and envelopes have been kept for the past 2 to 3 years and stored in a safe place ). I am sure they told me they would not charge interest on the account whilst I am making token payments. As the amount stated in the DN is £800 over the original debt I can only assume that interest and charges have been added over the past 3 years. As I did not receive any statements from them for over 2 years I also assumed the account had already been ‘closed’, although I do not recall ever receiving a DN for them in the past. I have already done a SAR request, mainly for the sister company of an original ‘Which? Beneficial’ account (which was sold to CapQuest but that’s a different David and Goliath story which I will add when I have the time). The SAR response for both accounts was absolutely rubbish and it is on my to-do list to chase, and now it has moved up the list this week! I recall that the GM info was limited, no Credit Agreement (not even reconstructed) and no terms etc. I am wondering if the recent cases have prompted the Credit Card companies to start issuing defaults on accounts where the original documentation does not exist, as I believe they have now been given the all clear to do so. I would like to ask, in hope anybody out there knows: Is there a time limit upon which they should have defaulted my account? Most others have defaulted within 7 months and these have left it 3 years which appears rather excessive. Can GM Card add interest and charges on the account without issuing any statements? (I read in another thread they were unable to do this – but would like some more info on this) If GM are not able to add interest, and the Default Notice is correct in all layouts and terms etc, would the Default notice be incorrect as the accumulated ‘late fees’ and interest have caused the ‘arrears owing’ to be incorrect? Alternatively would it be worth me making my offer within the next couple of days, with a view of the F&F terms that no default is registered? I will post a little bit of my history in post #2... Many thanks Me_too

Sorry to gatecrash, but I wondered if I may ask a question on this statement as I haven't been able to be on the debt forums for a while, so I am a little behind on the more recent cases..... What happens if a CC was taken out pre 2005, and the account has been on token payments for 3 years with no statements received for over 2 years? Can the CC company add interest and default sums? (I will be creating a new thread when I get some spare time for this question - I am just browsing at the moment before I start my own thread). Thanks

Hi Offkey81, I think that you have explained this very well, there are ET cases for both sides, and I think once again it depends on the judge lottery on the day. I have read all of these ET cases too, I'm about to submit to the ET myself, as I have to believe the judge on the day will follow the ECJ guidance under Stringer, and some of the more employee favorable ET cases. (He/she might not - but there is a good chance he/she will). I think this applies to everybody in the situation at the moment, the law isn't clear and until it is, the employee's have to be optimistic and believe that the judge in the ET will take on board the stringer decision in the employee's favour as it should be. I've just been through an attempted compromise agreement and I have met with 2 different solicitors in regards to 'stringer' etc, i.e. accrued holiday prior to the current holiday year. It is difficult, on my case the employer completely dismissed Stringer etc - and I think at the current time most employers will dismiss these cases in hope the judge decides in their favour. Of course, the number of cases which settle on this are not publicised so it would be interesting to know how many employer's have settled without it getting to ET. I think in whitty1975's case that this will hopefully sort itself out before the contract of employment is terminated, as whitty1975 is taking the necessary advice. As a note on the current years holiday, I am almost certain the following applies (as I had major issues with this an my employer but I can't really go into detail) - the employer is obliged to make payment for any untaken accrued holiday for the current year anyway, and this is separate from any accrued holiday for previous years (i.e. under stringer etc). I think the key point here, is that if the employment terminates before the end of the current holiday year then the accrued and untaken holiday must be paid anyway. If it isn't, it is a clear deduction of wages and can be taken to ET within the 3 month time limit. (If I am wrong please don't hesitate to let me know and I will correct my statement). Me_too

Hi, Yes it does sound as though they trying their luck and it's good that you are aware of it too. There's lots of information out there on the net regarding terminating employment and sickness/ill health. PILON is something that you would be entitled to if they dismiss you, but I think you wouldn't get it if you resign. At 5 years, that's 5 weeks pay, on top of your other holiday entitlements. Also for the holiday pay search for 'holiday' and a combination of the following 'stringer' 'pereda' 'rawlings' 'haulage' which should give you some interesting reading! Me_too

Hi, I'm sorry to hear of your experiences. I too have ME, and have just been through a PHI claim under a company scheme. I have also recently been dismissed on grounds of ill health, and my main concern at the time of dismissal was my PHI claim. My employer has not discussed early retirement option with me at all, in fact they were extremely reluctant to actually accept how disabling this illness can be. It was only on production of a report from the UK's leading CFS experts did they believe the true extent of the illness and my limitations. Do you have an independent CFS specialist who can assist in any way? I have been unable to work for over 5 years, and unfortunately I am no where near getting any better. I too don't know if and when I will recover, and your post has truly reminded me to chase the 'retirement' issue with the employer, as I think this was overlooked when they dismissed me. To the point of my reply, I would recommend you speak with a solicitor who deals specifically in CFS. If you are a member of the ME association, there are details within the magazine which may help point you in the direction of a specialist solicitor familiar with ME. One other thing I discovered the hard way, was the broker was heavily involved in the medical reporting side of things, and vastly mislead the employer in regards to ME and its severity. I initially had issues with a completely biased IME report which dismissed my disability, and the broker then tried to send me to an equally biased and unqualified medical expert - which would conclude the same. It's easy to just allow yourself to be sent to the biased Dr's, as until a problem arises it is easy to think they are sending you to Dr's who understand CFS and can give a diagnosis. I insisted that I was sent to a recognised CFS specialist, and only when this happened did I get a report which truly reflected my (in)ability. You seem to be on top of this though. Good Luck Me_too

Hello, I am not an expert by any means, but I have experienced some issues with accrued holiday upon the termination of my employment. I am familiar with the 'stringer' case and other Employment Tribunal (ET) and Employment Appeal Tribunal (EAT) cases, and although not an expert I would be more than happy to give some advice. I have consulted with two solicitors outside of this forum, in regards to holiday pay etc. My history is slightly different to yours, in that I was dismissed on ground of 'capability', i.e. I am too ill to return to work and it was the employer who prompted the dismissal. I was absent for several years, during which I did not take any holiday. However, I also have a relative who was also in poor health, and after only 6 months of absence was 'persuaded' to resign, and in doing so the company did not need to make any payment to him upon his resignation. He had been at the company for many years (20+), and as such missed out on £1000's of pounds he would have been entitled to if they terminated his contract. He left it too late to go to an employment tribunal to get what was rightfully his. I am not trying to scare you in the slightest, my only advice would be not to rush into resigning, especially as it would appear the employer is suggesting it. I would suggest (in addition to trying to sort out your accrued holiday for the current and previous years) to ask a few questions of some of the experts out there on this site, who can advise if resigning is more appropriate to your situation, instead of the company dismissing you. I think that you should take some advice as I think your company might be requesting your resignation so as to avoid responsibility and possibly other benefits which would otherwise be paid to you if they dismissed you on the grounds of incapability. How long have you been an employee of the company? Do you have a written contract? Have the company mentioned any Payment in Lieu of Notice (PILON) to you? I hope some others can give you the advice in regards to this. I'll also try to help as much as I can, but this week I may not be able to give that much advice (I have more time available next week) as am preparing my own Employment Tribunal for unpaid holiday both for the current year and past years! Good Luck Me_too

Hi, Sorry I haven't been around for a while. I have a watch on this thread but I have been too poorly to keep up with my CC woes! To answer your question, yes I did get a DN before they closed the CC account. However it was not fully explained to me that if I did not make payment of the overdraft (a family member would have paid this nominal amount for me) then the accounts would be combined. When I didn't respond to the DN, they closed the CC and placed the full amount into the Current Account/overdraft, whilst closing the Current Account at the same time - hence no more interest. I do think that the DN is valid, but I have never received anything other than a very old copy of an application form for the CC and no docs at all for the overdraft. I think I have understood from reading the many posts on here, that they are allowed to combine the debts. My gripe with them is that they placed the many £1000's of pounds CC debt on top of an overdraft of barely a few hundred pounds, and kept the current account number for reference when chasing the 'alleged' debt. Ooh, I haven't quoted the 'alleged debt' line for a while, I was just getting into practice there! So on my credit rating it looks as though I owe many thousands on a current account debt, for which I am not too happy about but there appears nothing we can do. I tried and tried to correspond with FD but it was a complete waste of time. Luckily they have been quiet, or Wescott's have for about 6 months. My other DCA's are coming out of the woodwork, just in time to place on the pressure before Christmas, so I am expecting a nice letter promising some kind of visit before Christmas - I hope they bring mince pies with them!!! I will be checking the threads a bit more after the next few weeks, so if there is anything else you'd like to ask I should respond a little quicker next time. Hope this helps, Me_Too

Hi grrrrr, Many thanks for the answer, this is the kind of info which I need. Unfortunately it means my employer, in paying pro-rata of 24 days has not underpaid my holiday for 2010! Damn! Thanks Me_too

SarEl, I really do not wish to get into a slanging match with you, and I will not. However, this is my last attempt at trying to explain to you why your comments are unnecessary, and belittling. I post these comments in hope that you read your past posts, and that you are able to take on board the comments I make in regards to your tone and content, and hopefully learn from them. I only include the initial post here, there are others which you have posted later which are just as unnecessary considering that I did respond to your question (in post #8 ) you just did not read the answer but instead just made more indirect comments (posts #11, #14, #17, #19, #21). I hope the text which I have highlighted in your quote below may assist you in identifying the areas which I originally perceived to be rather dismissive and belittling. Others may or may not agree, however I felt your manner was not one which was offering me assistance but one merely to belittle me as I am not qualified in law. This may be true, I am not qualified, which is why I am asking for assistance here. Your years of law experience do not give you any right in the world to dismiss me as an underclass. It is irrelevant to this site whether I am able to afford legal advice or not, in my case I am disabled and unable to go out to get it! Personally I perceived all of the blue text in one of your original posts, as copied below to be rather dismissive of me and my financial situation, of which you know nothing about. I once again ask that you leave my posts alone, you have promised this before but continue to come back with even more unnecessary comments and untrue accusations that I am nasty. Me_too

For clarity, I originally answered this question in post #8, that my holiday entitlement was 24 days plus bank holidays after the second time the question was asked of me...

Hi honeybee, Unfortunately there has been some confusion today, I posted only two separate new threads yesterday, and updated an old one. Initially there was no repetition in the posts, it all became a bit messy when one poster, didn't understand my comments, and then in my opinion was rather rude to me - in using CAPS WHICH I FIND RATHER AGGRESSIVE, and I felt I was being spoken to in a rather condescending tone in some of the posts. These posts were merged, which made extremely difficult reading, and the two separate questions which I asked were lost in the middle of the mayhem. I asked a moderator to return the posts back to their original threads, and there should only really be two threads. The initial two threads related to different questions, yes both covered 'Contractual holiday pay', but they were asked separately as I wanted to keep these separate. As you may recall from previous communication with me, I am not in the greatest of health, and I need to keep things simple in order to ask questions. I really appreciate all of the help I have received on this forum, there are many people, yourself included who have given it freely without the need to belittle me. It's just a shame that one person has ruined the whole experience of this website for me. I thank you though, for taking the time to review my posts. Me_too

This thread has become rather confusing, so I have sumarised post # 60 : Many thanks

SarEl, If you are unable to be polite to me, please do not respond to any of my posts. Whilst your time may be expensive, manners cost nothing.

Hi, I think I have several issues for which I need to start Employment Tribunal proceedings against my former employer. I don’t wish to go into too much detail, due to prying eyes, which is why I have tried to split down the various ‘issues’ into several more concise threads – also so that each thread may help others if they have similar issues. In summary I am severely ill with a long term illness this does make me rather repetitive in written communication and not as concise in my questions or explanations as other people would expect. I apologise in advance for this as my posts will appear clear to me, but may be confusing to others. Please bear with me and I will explain in further detail if I have not explained things properly. As a background to my situation – I have been off work sick for several years, without pay. My contract was terminated under ‘dismissal on grounds of incapability’ a couple of months ago. I was paid ‘payment in lieu of notice’ and accrued holiday for 2010 (albeit I think this payment was underpaid and have created other threads in relation to this). This thread is to ask for some advice as to what I need to do before I start an ET with my employer. The example I will give, which is relevant to my situation is one for ‘deduction of wages’, where upon termination of employment my employer has underpaid accrued holiday for 2010, this current year. The employer has also refused to pay 3 previous years accrued holiday as per the ‘Stringer’ case. I will not go into too much detail in this post, but in summary the ‘Stringer’ ET case states that upon termination of their contract a sick employee should be paid for all of the previous years untaken and accumulated holiday. And In my case this value is several thousand pounds, i.e. 2007, 2008 & 2009 untaken holiday. (For those employment experts out there, I have read up on the following: Stringer, Canada Life, Kigass, Rawlings, Khan - which is why I am asking all of these questions). I understand that under a tribunal situation, the previous years accrued holiday (2007-2009) can only be claimed under a deduction from wages under ERA 1996 only if there is a last deduction of wages has happened within the past 3 months. I think this is true as I think the last payment for accrued 2010 holiday was underpaid upon termination of my contract less than 3 months ago. I know I need to see an employment solicitor, but I am trying to establish some facts before I see them. So I am able to make the facts more concise to the solicitor. Questions : I believe I need to write to the employer, as a ‘letter before action’, stating that this money is owed etc. My concern and the main point of this question is: If I write to the employer, stating that they owe me £x for 2010, and £x for 2007-2009. What happens if the employer then makes payment for 2010 accrued holiday thus ‘breaking the chain’ of deductions, and refuses to make payment for 2007-2009? (I have previously requested 2007-2009 holiday as part of a compromise agreement, but the employer chose not to continue with a compromise agreement, and firmly stood behind the ‘Khan v McColl’ ET case, as their justification as not to pay 2007-2009 – but then underpaid the 2010 holiday!) If they now, upon receiving the above letter, fulfill their obligations as to 2010 holiday, and I am unable to pursue them for the backdated 2007-2009 through tribunal? Also must I write to the employer requesting the money, if they are fully aware that I have previous requested this payment for 2007-2009 several times prior to my contract being terminated, but they have outright refused to make payment? I am sorry if this is confusing, if anybody is able to help and requires more detail/explanation please let me know. Many thanks Me_too

From an alternative thread, but more relevant to this one : Many thanks, this is why I am asking questions on the forum. The employer has paid 24 days (pro-rata) which is contractual and LOWER than the statutory 28 days. What I do not understand is if this 24 days is correct, which is why I started this thread. I am creating another thread, which may or may not overlap with this thread. If you are genuinely interested then please feel free to view the new thread which explains my situation.

SarEl As explained in one of my posts, these are separate questions, which may help others in similar situations. Whilst both threads do apply to my situation, they can exist independently and I'm sure there are many others out there who may be experiencing one or the other. When I post on here, I post to ask questions for direct help, but I also consider that others may be helped by my posts and the answers provided. Please can you take this into consideration.

I think I have to make an apology as my threads have caused some confusion. As explained in my other thread, I am rather ill and it is difficult for me to explain things clearly. My other thread is relevant to 'employment contract terms' as opposed to this one, which is specifically for 'contract v statutory' where my contracted holiday is less than the statutory of 28. In my other thread there was a quote from SarEl, I was asked if my 24 days is on top of bank holidays. They are on top of bank holidays. If my holiday is 24 days per year PLUS bank holiday, does this have any influence on the number of days used when calculating the 2010 accrued holiday payment made upon termination of employment? My situation is: My contact of employment was terminated within the past 3 months, which is why I am asking these questions with a view to take my employer to an employment tribunal. I do not wish to give exact dates due to prying eyes. My accrued holiday was paid pro-rata using 24 days holiday per year, (which is the figure in my original contract from many years ago). I don't know if the 24 plus public holiday has any impact in this, but I think the calculation should be based pro-rata on 28 days. I did not ask this at first as I was unsure and wanted some advice from the experts out there. Thanks Me_Too

Here's my amended question, with figures replaced to avoid confusion: The original contract of employment states 28 days holiday, in addition to public holidays. The staff handbook states: After 3 years of service, an additional 1 days holiday per year will be given to the employee for each additional 3 years of service. Upon termination of contract, the holiday entitlement, as defined by the staff handbook is now 28 + 3 days = 31. The contract of employment is recently terminated. Payment for accrued holiday for 2010 is calculated (pro-rata) using the holiday entitlement stated within the original contract of employment (28 days). The ‘service increase’ accumulated over a period of years is ignored. Is this this correct, is the accrued holiday paid upon termination, the dates specified in your original contract - 28? Or should it be 31? Any advice? thanks Me_too

Hi, I think there has been some confusion on my two posts re: holiday pay. My other post is specifically relevant to 'statutory or contractual' holiday pay, if the statutory is greater than the contract value. This thread is relevant to the actual terms and conditions of the employment contract, and changes made to the original contract, under the bonus for 'years of service' benefits which some employees receive throughout their employment. I think my example of using 24 days was confusing, as this value is below the 28 days holiday threshold for statutory holiday pay. I will create a new posting, with new values, in hope that somebody is able to answer my questions. thanks Me_too