There are two big problems here - one is that a loan taken out in 2008 is going to be enforceable. The other is that you are obviously a property owner which leaves you vulnerable to other methods of attack. How much equity is there in the property? SH

1 NEVER talk to them on the telephone unless you have a telephone recorder such as the Truecall, and have made a conscious choice to engage in this mode of dialogue 2 Send them a letter which I will give you in the next post. 3 Is this a credit card or a loan? When was it taken out? This affects the next move. SH

The first step you need to take is to acknowledge service. This buys you the time you need to put in a defence, although with a PoC like that it can only be an "embarrassed" one. Crapbot are sending these claims out like confetti. All of them have identical wording, and none of them has a snowball's chance in hell of succeeding if the judge is even half competent. Sadly, too many of them aren't. We need to pool resources here. We need to refine and improve the standard defence and get our win rate as high as possible. This loathsome shower of leeches hasn't had a great financial year, and the more losses they take, the better. SH

Just to point out that if you don't want to waste money on stamps and stationery, Crapbot can always be emailed. Cabot Financial: Contact details Don't just use email for anything which could affect a court case, but for this type of letter you could certainly use it. Copy yourself in on the email. Also, if they continue to harass without providing evidence that a debt actually exists, there are always regulatory authorities you can complain to. Yes, they are fundamentally useless, but weight of numbers does count with the OFT, so the more the better. SH

Is the defence you submitted on another thread somewhere, possibly in the Legal Issues section? You say they have ignored your CPR request - I take it that was a Part 18 as the PoC are so poor a CPR 31.14 won't get you much? Non-compliance can now be challenged again at the AQ stage. There are some really good threads on here where AQs have been filled in in very similar circumstances. We just need to make sure we've got all the facts right. So you've got an unenforceable application form which they claim is an agreement? Any default notice? Any NoA? SH

There are a few about. I'll see if I can fish one out for you. Are there any other pertinent issues which need to be mentioned? SH

Hi CCM, Thanks! You can't have been away for too long because you've picked up quite a few 'blobs' since I was last here! All well deserved, I've no doubt. I see you stepped in and helped Nottsdave out as well - many thanks for that. This has been one seriously nasty year for me, after it promised so much, but I'm still in there fighting. Life is hard, and it's going to get harder, but nothing is finished yet. Sorry OP, we will now step aside and leave the stage to you. SH

Barclays - if they have been CCAd and have come up with no agreement, you can stop paying them until they do. NR - If they've come up with an enforceable agreement this will be more of a problem. What about unlawful charges? Cahoot - This one is the key. Ignore the rubbish about them not dealing with you. If you are the only one left administering your affairs, who the hell are they going to deal with? If they want the whole lot in one go, where do they expect you to get it from? The moon? Even if they have all of their paperwork in order, and they get judgment, the court will only order you to pay what you can afford. To give really accurate advice, we would need more information, but try to sort this Cahoot shower out first. What is it that needs clarifying before you know where you stand? SH

Wow, there's quite a gap between 28th January and now - what has happened so far? SH

The above two replies have basically hit the nail on the head. Crapbot use a "wearing down" tactic based on repeated machine-produced threats, which are nearly always inaccurate and often don't even relate to the case in question or the points you have raised. It is like trying to have a conversation with a parrot which only knows one phrase. Intelligible dialogue is not possible. What needs to borne in mind, however, is the overriding objective. What you really want to happen is for Crapbot to decide that the expense of pursuing the matter in a court room is too great given the low chance of success, or, failing that, you want your case to be presented as concisely and well as possible. However tempting it is to send them a letter telling them to go forth and procreate, you must resist the temptation. Anything "unprofessional" or "un-businesslike" may be shown to the judge, and can influence them negatively. Don't give them weapons they can use against you, no matter how tempting it may be. The traditional wisdom when dealing with matters which may end up in court is to reply courteously to all communications, to answer all questions asked, and to use a recorded form of post, preferably Special Delivery. If you were to use this approach when dealing with Crapbot, you would soon find it impossible. It costs them next to nothing to have a machine send off another templated threat. You have to reply with your own time and energy. The need to use recorded methods of posting is, in my opinion, completely overstated. Yes, use Special Delivery for crucial documents which will have a direct bearing on the result of a court case, but if you use it to respond to every templated threat sent by the arch paper-wasters at Crapbot, you would be donating more money to the Post Office than you would have needed to clear the alleged debt, and all to achieve nothing. For normal replies, there are cheaper ways of achieving the same end. If you are drafting your letters on a PC using Microsoft Word or Open Office, and then printing them off, you can copy them into your email client and send an email at the same time. Send a copy to yourself. Send the hard copy through standard second class post and get a free certificate of posting. All of this takes very little time and no more money than a standard second class letter, but it makes it pretty much impossible for anyone to claim they never received any letters or emails. If you feel you must reply to everything they send, the only time-efficient way of doing so is to send ONE letter outlining your final position, by a recorded method, and then reply to anything further using a template email which simply refers them to the letter stating your final position. It should take less than half a minute just to alter a date in the email to make it clear which letter is being replied to. I have to say, though, that I have seen no evidence to suggest that replying to everything Crapbot sends actually achieves anything. You could just send your final response and then file and ignore anything else. Whatever you do, don't fall into the trap of trying to have intelligent dialogue with machined letters. You will simply be draining your money and energy. Write ONE final response letter, and make it polite but firm. SH

Understood. Crapbot are as subtle as a charging rhino and this is their method of warfare. They just attempt to wear people down with endless ridiculous templated letters which take them no time or effort to prepare. The trick of ignoring everything you say to them is a psychological one, designed to make you feel worthless and at the mercy of the controlling master. They know that most people in this situation are in a state of low morale, and they are looking for the victim to cave in and acquiesce for a "quiet life". Your instinct to respond harshly is fundamentally sound, but it needs to be done based on reason and not emotion. Any reply drafted from an emotional reaction could give them ammunition to use in a future court battle. Be careful not to give them this. If they sense any degree of frustration or anger from the intended victim, their attrition tactics will just get even more extreme. Crapbot also know that alleged debtors cannot afford the repeated expense of sending replies to their endless mass-mailed junk. It is all part of their long-term "wearing down" approach. Eventually, if they repeat an untruth enough times, it sinks into the victim's mind and becomes a "truth". Give me some time, I'll be back. SH

Typical Crapbot smoke and mirrors. Lushbury, why have you started a new thread with this post? Is there no background? You seem to have sent Crapbot a lot of letters. It is not really going to be possible to give you any advice unless we have a bit more background. I see it is a Crap One agreement you are arguing about - these are usually devoid of any prescribed terms. What was the subject of the other letters you sent? I am dealing with these sewer **** myself, but I'd need more information before I could draft a reply. SH

The problem with this is that Payplan may already have filed an admission on your behalf. What did you actually sign? Try not to feel overwhelmed. Just take it one step at a time and then deal with the results as they arise. For now, concentrate on trying to get the court papers back and getting those CCA letters off. SH

No, but he has come up against a judge with a blatant disregard for the law he is paid to uphold. Anyone else in any other area of life showing this degree of incompetence, whether blue-collar worker or white, would be dismissed. SH

This thread is unbelievable. Notts, you seem to be born under the unluckiest star in the entire constellation. If you'd been one of Dolly Parton's triplets you'd be the one being bottle-fed. What on Earth can be done about judges who blatantly either don't know their job, or just don't care? EX343 is no good, and the Office For Judicial Complaints won't get involved either. They only deal with "insulting, racist or sexist comments". Well, personally, I'd sooner be called any name you could possibly dream up than have to face a judge who was a gibbering incompetent spilling his rusks and milk on the desk. Every other working person in the country has to display some degree of competence if they are to keep their job. Why don't judges? Can they really just carry on for ever wasting oxygen and public money even though their knowledge of the law is virtual zero? Or, is there ANOTHER explanation as to why they always side with money irrespective of right or wrong, and irrespective of the High Court case law which is supposed to be binding upon them? Simple question. If High Court law is binding, and they blatantly ignore it, why the hell don't they get the SACK?? I'm sure we'd love to know. SH

Always remember that Payplan is a wolf in sheep's clothing. It is a part of the banking "industry" which created it. So long as you are paying money to their paymasters, they will help you. If your interests are opposite from the interests of the alleged creditors, you will soon find out whose side they are really on. NEVER, EVER, EVER allow Payplan to become involved in legal issues. They will act against your true interests with no qualms whatsoever. Use Payplan as a tool, something which you can use in a specific situation. That situation is when you have multiple debts that you need to take formal control over. As soon as you are able, throw the crutch away and walk on your own two feet. SH

Hi Bruce and welcome to the CAG. Please start your own thread, so your problem doesn't get lost amongst Fred Bassett's. SH

No, that is irrelevant. If the alleged debt is covered by the Consumer Credit Act, you have a right to ask for a true copy of the agreement at any stage. Still head the letter with something like "I ACKNOWLEDGE NO DEBT TO YOUR COMPANY NOR ANY COMPANY YOU PURPORT TO REPRESENT". What is of great concern here is that you have received an N1 and not dealt with it yourself. NEVER fill in N1 forms and send them to Payplan. It is YOUR case, YOUR defence, and YOU need to handle it personally. SH

Right, there has been a significant development in my fight against Crapbot. After nearly a year of total inactivity, the little darlings have managed to do the near impossible and find a so-called "agreement" from Crapital One. The document is a simple application form, with nothing which could possibly pretend to be a prescribed term on it anywhere. Included with the form is one sheet purporting to be a set of T&Cs, but there is absolutely nothing to link the two sheets of paper. Also included are statements, which interestingly show that payment protection insurance was added to the alleged account on several occasions, even though the application form proves quite clearly that I ticked "NO" to PPI. Indeed, I would not even have been eligible for it at the time. The one concern is that the back of the application form purporting to be a CCA is blank, meaning that there is no proof as to what is on the reverse of the original. So, the question is, how best to respond? My own thoughts are to record a formal complaint against their ridiculous letter which they have sent to me saying "Thank you for your letter acknowledging your debt to Cabot" (it goes without saying that I sent no such letter), a formal complaint against their misappropriation of funds in applying the £1 statutory fee to the alleged account when it was clearly intended as the statutory fee for the CCA request which they have now complied with, and then to stand firmly behind the unenforceability of the agreement. I think I should include a paragraph informing them "for the avoidance of doubt" that the Rankine case only relates to a section of the CCA 1974 which deals with situations where the court has discretion, and that an "agreement" containing none of the prescribed terms falls under a different section where the court does NOT have the power to overturn the High Court precedent and make the agreement enforceable. I am tempted to leave the other inadequacies of their argument for the formal defence in court. I will leave it up to you to work out why. Now that Crapbot have produced a piece of paper, however blatantly unenforceable, there is no doubt that this will end up in a court room. It is absolutely essential that I don't do anything which could prejudice the case when the document they need to rely on is so blatantly inadequate (IF the judge bothers to apply the law). I am dealing with one seriously slippery and seriously nasty organization, so any feedback which will help will be seriously appreciated. SH

Well you couldn't have hit me, I wasn't here Thanks for the messages, everybody. Sorry for hi-jacking your thread, Notts. Time to get back on topic and see if we can help Notts. I'll have a read through and see what has been happening. SH

It has been a very long time since I posted on this forum. The last few months have been very bad indeed. The situation is still very bad. There is, however, a greater fight to be won, and I never doubted I would one day be back. Many thanks to everyone who sent messages of goodwill, including the silent ones I will never get to hear. One person even sent me an email of goodwill. Thank you so very much for that, it has been a great help to me. I won't name you, but you know who you are. I have a lot of reading and catching up to do before I can hope to give any advice to anyone. The absolute last thing I want to do is give dangerous and erroneous advice based on what was true in the past, but is not true now. The important consideration for now is, I am back. SH

I have just been alerted to this thread (thanks DonkeyB), and it appears we have a third case in which a defence has appeared on a case where no defence has been submitted. The solicitors involved in all three cases are the same. For the sake of completeness, I will provide links to other threads which relate to this issue - dazza3956 - http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collection-industry/166301-received-letter-northampton-court.html Nottsdave - http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collection-industry/171510-help-please-court-papers.html My own thread in the Legal Issues forum - http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/legal-issues/172507-hl-legal-claimants-filing.html I would dare to suggest that a third identical incident, identical even to the exact amount of time between the CPR 31.14 being submitted and the imaginary defence appearing, tends to suggest that there is something happening here which goes beyond coincidence. I would also suggest that some form of proactive action is now necessary. I will be making some further posts to these threads as soon as I have fully digested these latest developments. SH

I've just got back on here after a week of non-stop work and found a PM relating to this thread. Is it too late for me to do anything now? If not, post here with as much information as you can and I will do the best I can with it on Sunday evening. PM anything you can't post on an open thread. SH

Crapbot's letter is complete fantasy, pure deceit, and every time someone receives it they should report Crapbot to the OFT under the new CPUTR. SH

When in doubt with the courts, I would always ask. This sounds like a situation where you need to phone for a quick answer, AND send a letter so you get some written evidence of what the court says to you. SH