That is the usual case with Crapbot. They should be put to strict proof that Notices of Assignment were received. If the original creditors have terminated accounts without issuing default notices they have been silly. Put Crapbot to strict proof that compliant default notices were issued. These will need to be mentioned because they could make the sum on any default notice inaccurate by a significant margin. How are you getting on preparing the defence? If you need any help, just post here. SH

Keep the proof that they cashed the postal order as that is important. Until they comply with this request you are legally entitled to withhold payment. SH

Can you please clarify one thing here - are you saying you sent a CCA request to the NastyWest and they cashed the postal order? If so, it doesn't matter whether they replied to you or not. You have clear evidence that they received the request, so you can send an "Account In Dispute" letter after 12+2 days and stop paying them. SH

1) The first step to take here is to send a letter requesting a true copy of your original agreement pursuant to the Consumer Credit Act 1974, which this alleged debt will be regulated under. The letter is here - http://www.consumerforums.com/resources/templates-library/86-debt-collectors/581-cca-request-letter The first line should be changed from s77(1) to s78(1) because a credit card is running account credit. Leave in the paragraph in red as IJ are debt collectors. Send this recorded delivery, with a £1 postal order. Do not sign the letter, either just print your name or use a computer font if you are printing from a word processor such as Word or Open Office. They have 12+2 days in which to supply a copy of your agreement, after which they will be in default and you can cease paying them until they do comply. With an account of this age, it would be a miracle if they could come up with an agreement in 12 days. You will get some breathing space at the very least. There is every possibility that the agreement will be defective even if they ever can find it, but we can cross that bridge later. For now, just send off the request and see what, if anything, comes back. 2) If you have no work and little income you should not have been paying them £30 a month anyway. Normally, I would suggest that if a payment is due before the end of the 12+2 days, that it should be paid just to keep you squeaky clean. As these payments are far higher than any which a court of law would order if you were subject to a CCJ, I suggest you stop paying them immediately. 3) Be careful with banking security when you cancel your payments. If you have been paying by debit card, it would be a good idea to "lose" it and get the bank to send you a new one. 4) They have no right to ask for income and expenditure forms. 5) Are you the subject of telephone harassment? If so, you will need to think about your options now because it will only get worse. There are letters which can be sent regarding telephone and doorstep harassment, and there is a machine called the trueCall which can give you control of your telephone line. If you are subject to depression, it will be important for you to prepare for the avalanche of threatening letters and silly phone calls which are to come. 6) If your business has failed and you are ill, it may be a good idea to have a look at your overall situation to work out the best long term strategy. Please feel free to make further posts if you would like some free independent advice. There are a great many CAGgers who have emerged from debt hell with the help of this site, and many of them now pay it forward by helping new members. You are amongst friends here. Feel free to ask any questions. SH

Hi HOWLER and welcome to the CAG. Who was the original lender of the credit card? When was it taken out? Have you sent the CCA letter? Do you have a house for them to put a charging order on (which can only happen if you have a County Court Judgment against you, in case you are worried)? SH

Well if they were playing ball they certainly aren't now. They have absolutely no right to be demanding telephone numbers. Send them the telephone harassment letter to try to stop them abusing the one they already have. CCA the cretins. At the very least it will give you breathing space. If the account has been terminated on the back of an invalid DN, it has been terminated on the back of an invalid DN. Nothing which happens afterwards can change that. If it was me I wouldn't bother them with this "detail" yet. I'm sure it will come in useful in the future. If it was me, I'd just send the CCA letter for now and see what they come up with. SH

Trumpetmaest, Did you ever receive a default notice on either of these accounts? Did you receive a Notice of Assignment from the original creditor on either of these accounts? Do you know if there were penalty charges applied to either account, and, if so, how many? Do you know if any PPI was applied to the credit card account? (I am assuming that none was added to the loan as it says not on the agreement) SH

How did Worst Crudit get hold of your father's email address? Did they ever send a text message or was that just bluff? You are getting good advice here - just one more thing to add. Keep copies of these emails so that they can at some point be forwarded to the OFT. They are blatantly in breach of the OFT Debt Collection Guidance, and the more complaints against Worst, the better. SH

It should be 28 days plus another three I think for delivery. It is probably best to check with the court so you know exactly where you stand. Once Crapbot default on your CPR requests there will be no further reason to delay submitting your defence, so it is best to work on this with the 8th in mind. You have done everything right so far. The first step will be to submit the defence, and as part of that you will need to include the proofs you have obtained that you did indeed make the necessary CPR requests. There will be no need to involve the court at this stage. There will be a possibility of making an application later on. When I've finished my dinner I'll have a good read through this thread and take some notes so I know where we are. Let me know if you want me to post some links to defences which will be similar to the one you will need to submit. SH

Sorry, no, DON'T sign either of the CPR letters! I will update the templates I've got to make sure that confusion doesn't happen again. Start a separate thread about Robbingscum NoWay, but, yes, send the CCA letter with no signature. SH

Sorry! I have just realised I didn't return to this thread and provide the links I promised. Here is the link to a fellow CAGger's blog about Crapbot - Cabot Financial Blog Here are some Crapbot Farcical threads - http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collection-industry/80270-litigation-tbern123-cabot-financial.html http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collection-industry/54029-seahorse-cabot.html http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collection-industry/104668-cabot-windywoo.html http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collection-industry/73598-dealing-cabot-101-cabot.html Regarding the letter from Ruthbish, it is evidence that they know they are screwed. If they could go to court, get a CCJ, and have you bled like a leech for years to come, do you think they would be offering "generous" settlements? You have already sent the letter to Ruthbish telling them that the previous shower of crud were in default of your CCA request, so there is no need to communicate with them further on the subject. What you need to do is complain to the OFT and TS, and then write to Ruthbish again telling them that you have done just that. This also gives you a chance to ask for their formal complaints procedure, which they are obliged to supply. If they keep being silly, you may have a chance to escalate any complaint to the Financial Ombudsman Service, which, despite being less use than a chocolate fireguard, may just charge them £450 for the investigation. This should be a deterrent to them as they will already be aware that they cannot screw any money out of you - hence the silly "offer". SH

I only wish I knew who actually owned this alleged debt. If it IS Egg, then what right do they have to be demanding the full balance of the account? Have they issued a default notice? If not, they are out of time now as a court claim implies termination. This would mean that all of the bottom feeders who have been chasing this thing were only doing so on behalf of Egg. Is that really feasible? Anyway, for now, we have done what we can. The agreement which is mentioned in the PoC is a key document. I wonder if Carter actually has it? If you want some reading material, have a look at this thread - http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/legal-issues/188093-egg-credit-agreements-what.html It is about Egg agreements so may be relevant. Also, have a read of the following thread and post if you want to know what will happen next. It is a pound to a penny that Carter will ignore your requests. You may even get an abusive letter saying that you are 'trying it on' and that the documents you are requesting are not really necessary. You may even get a letter saying "Please withdraw your defence, and contact the office to arrange repayment". I have seen it happen. What you will do next is submit a holding defence. You will then be sent an allocation questionnaire, and it is at this stage where you can challenge Carter again to produce the necessary documents. It is also possible to spend £75 on an application to the court, if Carter ignores CPR 31.14. http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/legal-issues/131499-directions-n150-n149-allocation.html http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/legal-issues/159445-getting-them-reveal-their-3.html#post1771008 I will give you some links to some good holding defences, probably tomorrow. This defence will not be easy to compose as we have so little information, but that can be used to our advantage. SH

This is getting more insane all the time, but I suppose that is typical with Carter. We can submit a nice defence to this one asking for all kinds of paperwork which Carter simply will not have. Anyway, for now we need to get those CPR letters sent. The one negative consequence of such pitiful Particulars of Claim is that it limits what we are allowed to ask for under CPR 31.14. ` All that is mentioned is the agreement. Therefore, if the claim is for a sum under £5,000, send this - Dear Sir, Re: (Claimant's name) v (Your name) Case No: CPR 31.14 Request On (date) I received the Claim Form in this case issued by you out of the (Name) County Court. I confirm having returned my acknowledgement of service to the court in which I indicate my intention to contest all of your claim. Please treat this letter as my request made under CPR 31.14 for the disclosure and the production of a verified and legible copy of the following document mentioned in your Particulars of Claim: The agreement. You will appreciate that in an ordinary case and by reason of the provisions of CPR PD 16 para 7.3, where a claim is based upon a written agreement, a copy of the contract or documents constituting the agreement should be attached to or served with the particulars of claim and the original should be available at the hearing. Further, that any general conditions incorporated in the contract should also be attached. Although your claim is for a sum which is not more than £5,000.00 and will in all likelihood be allocated to the small claims track for determination upon my delivering a defence, at this moment in time I have not delivered my defence and the case has not been allocated to a track. In consequence the provisions of CPR 27(2) are of no effect and you should not seek to avoid compliance with your CPR 31 duties by claiming otherwise. You should ensure compliance with your CPR 31 duties and ensure that the document I have requested are copied to and received by me within 7 days of receiving this letter. Your CPR 31 duties extend to making a reasonable and proportionate search for the originals of the documents I have requested, the better for you to be able to verify the document's authenticity and to provide me with a legible copy. Further, where I have requested a copy of a document, the original of which is now in the possession of another person, you will have a right to possession of that document if you have mentioned it in your case. You must take immediate steps to recover and preserve it for the purpose of this case. Where I have mentioned a document and there is in your possession more than one version of that same document owing to a modification, obliteration or other marking or feature, each version will be a separate document and you must provide a copy of each version of it to me. Your obligations extend to making a reasonable and proportionate search for any version(s) to include an obligation to recover and preserve such version(s) which are now in the possession of a third party. In accordance with CPR 31.15© I undertake to be responsible for your reasonable copying costs incurred in complying with this CPR 31.14 request. If you require more time in which to comply with this request you must tell me in writing. You must tell me before the time for compliance with this request has expired. In telling me you require more time you must tell me what steps you have taken and propose to take in order to comply with this request and also state a date by when you will comply with this request. In addition your statement must be accompanied with a statement that you agree to an extension of the time for me to file my defence. Your extension of time must be not less than 14 days from the date when you say you will have complied with my request and you must state the new date for filing my defence. If you are unable to comply with this request and believe that you will never be able to comply with this request you must tell me in writing. Please note that if you should fail to comply with this request, fail to request more time or fail to agree to an extension of time for the filing of my defence, I will make an application to the court for an order that the proceedings be struck out or stayed for non-compliance and a summary costs order. I do hope this will not be necessary and look forward to hearing from you. yours faithfully, xxxxxxxxxxxx Also, send the CPR 18 letter in post #9 above. Send them by Special Delivery, and send them separately as they are very important. SH

OK, just got back online. Had to go out for a bit. The claim form makes me ask an obvious question - who exactly own this alleged debt? Is it still with the original creditor, or has it been defaulted, terminated, and sold on to a third party? This is crucially important in making sure we get the letters exactly right. SH

The other letter you will need to send is a CPR 18 letter. CPR 18 is not as powerful as it needs the direction of the court, but it is all-encompassing. If there are likely to be unlawful charges on these accounts, the account statements could well be crucial evidence. Here is the letter to send. It will not need any amending for your individual situation other than to insert the correct dates and names. In the XXXX County Court Claimant -v- (YOUR NAME) Claim Number: (CLAIM NUMBER) Dear XXX CPR 18 - REQUEST FOR INFORMATION I have received a recent court claim from your organisation. In order to file a defence and counter claim I require some information. Given that this matter is now the subject of legal proceedings, you are obliged to disclose under the Civil Procedure Rules, the information and documents detailed below. The information must be furnished within fourteen days of the receipt of this letter. If you fail to comply, this will be reported to the Court, a copy of this letter will be provided as evidence to the same and an Order enforcing your compliance will be sought. 1. A true copy of the executed credit agreement and any terms and conditions that applied to the account at the time of default and at the time the account was opened. True copies of any notice of assignment and default notice or enforcement notice that you or the original creditor sent me, with a copy of any proof of postage that you hold. 1.1 If copies of any of the above documents are to be relied on in court rather than originals, a copy of the Notice of proposal to adduce hearsay evidence required under s2(1) of the Civil Evidence Act 1995 together with proof of the authenticity of the document(s) as required under s8(1)(b) of the Act, including but not limited to: (a) a copy of the procedure(s) used for copying, storing and retrieving documents (b) a copy of the relevant log entry showing the time and date of the scan or copy, the name of the member of staff making the copy, the method used for copying, storage and retrieval and time and date of destruction of the original document(s) © copies of internal and external audit reports covering the entire period from the date of the copy to the present to demonstrate that the procedures have been complied with (d) copies of Quality Assurance accreditation certificates covering the entire period from the date of the copy to the present to demonstrate that the procedure(s) and audit process(es) comply with the appropriate quality standards 2. All records you hold on me relevant to this case, including but not limited to: a. Where there has been any event in my account history over this period which has required manual intervention by any person, I require disclosure of any indication or notes which have either caused or resulted in that manual intervention, or other evidence of that manual intervention in relation to my account formerly held with *********.(AMEND TO THE COMPANY NAME) b. .Documents relating to any insurance added to the account, including the insurance contract and terms and conditions, date it was added and deleted (if applicable). c. Details of any collection charge added to the account; specifically, the date it was levied, the amount of the charge, a detailed financial breakdown of how the charge was calculated, and what the charge covers. d. Specific details of the fees/charges levied by any other agency in respect of this account and a detailed breakdown of said fees/charges and what each charge relates to and on what date said fees/charges were levied. e. Copies of statements for the entire duration of the credit agreement. f. The Deed of Assignment g. Evidence of securitisation in the UK h. The termination 3. Any other documents you seek to rely on in court. I will require this information within the next fourteen days. I must advise you that if the information is not forthcoming, it will be reported to the Court that you are trying to frustrate proceedings and denying me the opportunity to file a defence and counter claim. Yours sincerely, XXXX (type, don't sign). Carter is a slimeball so send both letters by Special Delivery. It is almost certain that he will ignore these requests, so we need evidence that they were sent and received. I will be back with some links. SH

The most powerful of the Civil Procedure Rules for obtaining information is CPR 31.14. This is because the claimant is obliged to reply and furnish the documents, otherwise you can make an application to the court to have the case struck out. They also only have seven days to respond. The restriction with CPR 31.14 is that it only allows you to inspect documents mentioned in the statement of case. This is why we need to know exactly what is mentioned in the Particulars of Claim. Here is a general CPR 31.14 letter, which will need amending based on several factors - the amount of the claim, and which documents are mentioned in the Particulars of Claim. Dear Sir, Re: (Claimant's name) v (Your name) Case No: CPR 31.14 Request On (date) I received the Claim Form in this case issued by you out of the (Name) County Court. I confirm having returned my acknowledgement of service to the court in which I indicate my intention to contest all of your claim. [Prior to the issue of proceedings I had delivered a request for the production of the agreement mentioned in the Claim Form and on which you rely. That request was ignored][delete if no such request was delivered] Please treat this letter as my request made under CPR 31.14 for the disclosure and the production of a verified and legible copy of [each of the following / the] document(s) mentioned in your Particulars of Claim: 1 the agreement. You will appreciate that in an ordinary case and by reason of the provisions of CPR PD 16 para 7.3, where a claim is based upon a written agreement, a copy of the contract or documents constituting the agreement should be attached to or served with the particulars of claim and the original(s) should be available at the hearing. Further, that any general conditions incorporated in the contract should also be attached. 2 the assignment* 3 the default notice* 4 the termination notice* 5 [any other documents mentioned in the Particulars of Claim]* * delete if not mentioned in the Particulars of claim. [Although your claim is for a sum which is not more than £5,000.00 and will in all likelihood be allocated to the small claims track for determination upon my delivering a defence, at this moment in time I have not delivered my defence and the case has not been allocated to a track. In consequence the provisions of CPR 27(2) are of no effect and you should not seek to avoid compliance with your CPR 31 duties by claiming otherwise]# # delete if claim for a sum exceeding £5,000.00 You should ensure compliance with your CPR 31 duties and ensure that the document(s) I have requested are copied to and received by me within 7 days of receiving this letter. Your CPR 31 duties extend to making a reasonable and proportionate search for the originals of the documents I have requested, the better for you to be able to verify the document's authenticity and to provide me with a legible copy. Further, where I have requested a copy of a document, the original of which is now in the possession of another person, you will have a right to possession of that document if you have mentioned it in your case. You must take immediate steps to recover and preserve it for the purpose of this case. Where I have mentioned a document and there is in your possession more than one version of that same document owing to a modification, obliteration or other marking or feature, each version will be a separate document and you must provide a copy of each version of it to me. Your obligations extend to making a reasonable and proportionate search for any version(s) to include an obligation to recover and preserve such version(s) which are now in the possession of a third party. In accordance with CPR 31.15© I undertake to be responsible for your reasonable copying costs incurred in complying with this CPR 31.14 request. If you require more time in which to comply with this request you must tell me in writing. You must tell me before the time for compliance with this request has expired. In telling me you require more time you must tell me what steps you have taken and propose to take in order to comply with this request and also state a date by when you will comply with this request. In addition your statement must be accompanied with a statement that you agree to an extension of the time for me to file my defence. Your extension of time must be not less than 14 days from the date when you say you will have complied with my request and you must state the new date for filing my defence. If you are unable to comply with this request and believe that you will never be able to comply with this request you must tell me in writing. Please note that if you should fail to comply with this request, fail to request more time or fail to agree to an extension of time for the filing of my defence, I will make an application to the court for an order that the proceedings be struck out or stayed for non-compliance and a summary costs order. I do hope this will not be necessary and look forward to hearing from you. yours faithfully xxxxxxxxxx Either amend this yourself to suit, or post up your PoC and we'll tell you what to include. SH

OK thanks for that. I will give you the letters you need to send in a few minutes. Just to quickly answer your question - If you haven't had any reply by the time you need to submit your defence, which with Carter you almost certainly won't have, you submit a holding defence. There are many examples of these and I will give you some links in a minute. To know the EXACT wording of the letters you need to send, we need to know EXACTLY what the Particulars of Claim are. Could you either scan this in or type it out, taking care to remove any exact amounts of money or anything else which could positively identify you? Back soon. SH

You say you've got a "court order form" which needs to be returned by 28/09. What exactly is this? Is it an N1 claim form, and, if so, has it been sent from Northampton Bulk Centre? If it has, you can acknowledge service online to buy a bit of extra time. Make sure you acknowledge saying you will be defending all of the claim. Come back here when you have done that, and I will give you the letters you need to send to request information under the Civil Procedure Rules. If the form is not an N1, or it has been issued from somewhere other then Northampton, please tell us so we can advise you accordingly. SH

It is a simple enough matter. The facts - The existence of any and all debt collection agencies is totally unnecessary, and is simply a financial drain on the entire populace. What can debt collection agencies do? Answer - they can pursue debtors through the county court system. Couldn't the original creditor have done that in the first place? So, as you can see, there is absolutely no reason for the existence of debt collection agencies. The fault lies with the obscenity of a Consumer Credit Act, which in recent years has been made even more obscene, which allows lenders who make poor lending choices to pass the buck for their mistake onto the taxpayer, and then allows leeches who contribute absolutely nothing to society to come in and plunder more booty for themselves. The system doesn't just rob debtors, it robs every single taxpayer in the United Kingdom. If the original creditors lost the right to terminate agreements and plunder public funds, they would need to use the court system to seek redress in the proper way. The taxpayer would cease being robbed. As Parliament is supposed to act in the interests of the taxpayers who elect it, the Consumer Credit Act should be amended to prevent further compromising of those interests. As in reality Parliament only gives a monkey's about the monied vested interests which line its back pockets, the taxpayer can and will be told to go to hell. Only a change in the political system, to remove the corruption and the vested interests which are rotten and diseased to the core, can ever have any impact on the way human beings are forced to live. SH

Why did you have to answer them? Who made you? Do not ever talk to these cretins on the telephone unless you are recording the call and have a reason for doing so, such as gathering evidence for complaints and possible legal action. I don't know your circumstances, but if your telephone line is an important part of your life, and you can spare the money, you will find the trueCall to be one of the best investments you ever made. It will give you control over your own telephone line for the first time in your life. Even after this nightmare is over, it will still be useful in cutting out all of the other dickhead nuisance callers everybody has to put up with. Even if you can't record the calls, at least keep a log of the call times. Make the necessary complaints if you have not already done so. Be prepared for a fight, but also be aware that it is a fight they cannot win as they can never produce a signed agreement on an account which never existed. The final response letters need to be exactly that - your final response. Any further dialogue needs to be with the regulatory authorities. SH

As well as making the complaints already suggested, make sure you ask Clownell for a copy of their formal complaints procedure. This could result in them being investigated by the FOS which will cost them £450. SH

Send off that letter and see what happens. If it is a genuine account, they should be able to prove it, but the next letter is the one they will find a bit harder to satisfy. Sending a CCA request will almost certainly leave them floundering, as it is extremely unlikely that Carter will have an agreement to hand. Even if one does eventually surface, with a Crap One card of that age it would be a miracle if it contained the prescribed terms and was enforceable. That should be enough to shepherd this alleged debt over the SB line. SH

OK. Well the first thing to realise about Carter is that he is indeed trigger happy when it comes to issuing court proceedings. The second thing to realise is that he hardly ever follows through when someone stands up to him and submits a good defence. I have prepared defences for people dealing with Carter, and none of them have yet gone through to judgment. In every case, Carter has discontinued and been liable for costs. Of course, that is a long way off yet, if it ever happens. The important consideration now is how to handle the current situation. I take it that letter you have received does contain a definite account number, and that it does relate to an account you recognize? SH

Yes! In fact, it is one of Carter's favourite tricks to deliberately send court papers to the wrong address to get judgment in default. First step, calm down. Stop panicking. You are dealing with Carter, who many people on this forum have seen off without much trouble, and Crapital One, who very rarely have enforceable agreements. Start from scratch. Who has told you that you are running out of time, and what are you running out of time for? SH

Who has told you time may be running out? Time for what? Try and explain more clearly and I'm sure we can help you. SH