Oh absolutely agree ford, DJ should know the law on what he's about to rule, and if he doesn't know, he should find out before the start of the hearing, completely unfair And why do they all look the same! Tall, bald and with glasses, weird!,

Agreed steampowered, I was very lucky he bothered, I think he actually wanted to prove me wrong, but because he found the bit about the true copy needing to be in court, he had no choice, because I'd already asked if I could appeal. I also consider myself lucky that the claimants representitive was actually really very sweet. I also agree about not being expected to know all the legalities etc, but I don't agree a DJ should practically tell you you're away with the fairys just because he doesn't know the particular law in question. Anyway, it's done now, so I need to get ready for the next chapter. Work out the amount of PPI I've paid Amount of charges + interest. Defence and witness statement Off now, really very grateful to everyone

DX, yes please!!!!

Yes citizenB and I will, if you'll help me. Both judge and other sides lady were harping on about this is why we should be represented, because we don't know the laws, I always thought the county court procedure was meant to be easy so we don't need representation! Cheeky I'm thinking maybe I should be represented at the next hearing, I can do all the donkey work, solicitor can just speak for me, not that I want that really, but I don't want to fail now. What do others think? I

Oh bless you all, it's lovely to see you all wanted me to succeed. I keep remembering how cheeky I was and having a little smile to myself. I said, you you really think I would put myself through having to argue with a judge, if I wasnt confident of what Im saying.

DJ said, alongside the fact that claimant must produce the original in court (he'd obviously also found the bit about agreements pre 2007 I had mentioned earlier,as he refered to that} and said that's the law in this case. He thought it only fair that, the fact that, I now know I had PPI cover and quite possibly could have claimed on it, it should be taken into account. DJ told claimants lady, the assignee is in no better position than the original creditor, something I found very interesting. I must just tell you, before we left the room to give him time to look at his book, he said to me, when you come back, I make the decision not you! Oops, that told me, had to eat his words though didn't he! DJ suggested the case be something or other, (I'm assuming a stay) and when such time as the claimant is able to produce the original, CCA, which incidentally judge still believes the application form is a CCA, the case may continue. Claimants lady, went into panic mode, I suppose it would look like she'd lost, so she asked DJ if, I could send them all my newly found documents (I genuinely have only just found them) and give claimant time to respond. DJ agreed, I should submit a new witness statement and a new defence, send all relevant documents to the claimant, and make notes of the laws Im relying on. have until a date in December to do this, claimant has until Feb to respond, hen a new hearing date will be set. DJ said all of this PPI, charges etc should have been in my defence. I'm feeling quite smug that I had the courage to argue with a judge, although at one point I got a bit fed up and teary and said, I'll just pay whatever they want me too, this is too stressful, I just want it over with. Judges reply basically was, we can't do that if there are laws preventing it. It wasn't easy, it was extremely stressful and frustrating at times, we were in there for 2 hours in all. Shame it didn't get sorted today, but at least now I get to teach the DJ a new law! Thanks for reading my mammoth essay, but sadly you haven't got rid of me yet!

Judge got bored with looking at his book,, and somehow we got onto the fact that I had sent a subject access request to Cap One, which they failed to respond to, he then said, you said a moment ago you've found some documents now, where did you find them, I said in the loft, DJ so why didn't you look for them in 2008 Me, because I chose to pay the £10 to Cap One to do the work as is my legal right. DJ, you are responsible for your documents, not the creditor. He was getting pretty pi**ed off because I was not rolling over, other side, said very little. Whenever he mentioned the CCA, I corrected him and said its an application form, not CCA, he said yes it is. DJ insisted he had the power to overrule and decide the outcome, I said, well would you grant me permission to appeal, to give me time to find the part in the consumer credit act to back up what I'm saying. Which basically was: The creditor needs to produce the original credit agreement in court. The credit agreement, to be enforced in court, must have all the prescribed terms embodied within the signature page. He was having none of it.. But as I had asked if I could appeal, he thought, but what if she's right He suggested I go outside with the claimants lady, have a chat, show her my witness statement, whilst he carries on looking at the act to see if he can find what Im on about. Nothing much was said outside, we were called back in after about 10 minutes. DJ said to claimants lady, you may need to make a phone call in a minute, I have found that Mrs..... Is in fact correct and the original agreement does need to be produced in court. Cont in a mo

Okay this may be a bito f a biggie so might have to do it in a few posts, in between cooking dinner etc. Got to court a bit early, spoke with the claimants representative who was not the person I was expecting, I assumed it would be the person who had written the witness statement, but anyway, she was a very nice young girl, she had no paperwork with her, allegedly Lowell didn't receive my documents... Yea right, strange how I got their documents a few days after I posted mine. On the way to the hearing room the young lady said to me, it's listed for an hour and a half, but we'll be out in 20 minutes, confident obviously! Judge was pretty smiley, and seemed nice, he started off by telling me the procedure, I can ask his permission to appeal, it won't be a written judgement, s o if I want to know how he arrived at his decision, I would need to write it down. He went on to ask me what my defence was, I asked if it would be okay to read out to him the sequence of events from 2008 to date, he completely ignored me, proceeded to ask questions, that had he allowed me to say my bit in the first place, he wouldn't have needed too! Ie, why I haven't paid it! I said that since 2008 I have asked various people including the original creditor for a copy of the CCA, he said why didn't you keep it safely, I said because there isn't one, only an application form which I sent off to apply for a credit card, he said, words to the effect of, well you've got it now, the claimant has sent you one, I said, No the claimant has sent me a copy of the application form. Judge said, no it's the CCA. I said no it isn't, it does not have the prescribed terms on it, and to be enforced through the court it needs to have. judge, what are the prescribed terms and what law are you basing that statement on. It went on and on, with judge saying you are wrong and I am right (all this time he was trying to find the relevant section in his book) he read out various bits of the consumer credit act 1974 , but wasn't able to find the bit I needed him to find, and I stupidly didn't write it down. The other sides lady was trying to find it on her phone, and reading out bits that they thought I had misread. I was getting some b**ls now, and thought right Ive had enough of being called a liar, both are legal people but don't know what the hell law Im referring to. To be continued in a moment

Thank you, I will, it's so annoying when a thread comes to an abrupt halt.

What's an RP? Though it meant messages, but nothing there

That's great, thank you Maddie

Just a quick couple of questions before the hearing this afternoon. Can I state that without a properly executed CCA containing all the prescribed terms, ie repayments Rate of interest Credit limit The court is prevented from enforcing? Is that correct, if not what has changed? What year did things change, ie, CCA agreements issued before ??? Don't count in the new legislation??? Can I mention the excessive fees charged to the account? Urgent advice needed, got to leave at 1pm

Converting to PDF is my only issue dx.

Okay, I've given up on trying to upload the 'CCA' its pretty clear it's not one. On Monday Im going to keep it plain and simple and ask if anyone can see the prescribed terms on the 'agreement' Would I be correct in thinking that put simply, for a running account the prescribed terms would be: Repayments Rate of interest Credit Limit. None of which are there! Could anyone just brief me on how to put that, politely??? I have actually found the original letter the credit card was attached to, Lowell have taken the amount of charges for over limit, returned DD's etc from there and put into the T&C They have also put an interest rate in there which differs from papers I have. Lowell have clearly got hold of various bit of correspondence and put it all into the 5 pages of T&C which I know for a fact I never had, because I have found everything now! One final thing, can I bring up the £400 of fees added to the account??? I'd so love to ask if it could be adjorned as I now have everything!!!! I'm so sorry to keep badgering you, and not able to give you what you need to advise me, I'm making it my mission when this is out of the way, to leant to upload!!! Will be back Monday to update

Been trying to convert to PDF, downloaded converter, but still cant get it! So annoyed

Yes it is listed for an hour and a half. Might go through your instructions again and have another go, I don't recall having any options for PDFs, but maybe I was in a rush to get it posted I missed it.

Is this still the case? Anything changed? Copied from Vint1954 While this account remains in serious dispute, the relevant main points of the Law and OFT regulations while the account is in this state and xxxxxx remain in default are: You may not ask for payment against this account. I am not obliged to offer any payment against this account. You cannot register any data with a third party. You cannot take any enforcement action, including registering Defaults. You cannot pass the account on to a third party for collection. You cannot sell the account.m Let me explain here, what a true copy is: In a recent letter from the enforcement department of the OFT, the text below was quoted, explaining what is required. “The copy of the executed agreement need not be an exact copy but it must be a ‘true copy’ and not some reconstruction of what the original might have been and it must contain the same terms as the original. Where the terms have been varied as provided for within the agreement, the copy of the original agreement must be accompanied by a document setting out the current terms, as varied. Certain details may be omitted from the original agreement eg the signatureicon but the debtor must be in no doubt as to the true nature of his obligations under the loan. Should no original agreement be in existence it is very hard to say that the copy the creditor offers to the debtor is, in fact, a true copy as there would be no original with which to compare it. In our view the onus of proof would be on the creditor to show that the copy is a true one and where none existed he may have difficulty discharging this. Neither should creditors suggest that a consumer has signed a credit agreement where they are unable to provide evidence to support this — to do so is likely to be a misleading action under Regulation 5 of the Consumer Protection From Unfair Tradingicon Regulations 2008 (the CPRs) and would also constitute an unfair or improper business practice.” I also refer you to the information below. 1. A valid credit agreement must contain certain terms within the signature document (s.60(1)(2) CCA 1974). These core terms are the credit limit, repayment terms and the rate of interesticon (SI 1983/1553 (6 Signing of agreement) which states that the prescribed terms must be within the signature document. (Column 2 schedule 6). s.61(1)(a) states the agreement must contain all the prescribed terms and be signed by both the debtor and on behalf of the creditor. 2. Further, s.127(3) CCA 1974 makes the account unenforceable if it is not in the proper form and content or improperly executed. In Wilson and another v Hurstanger Ltd (2007) it was stated “In my judgment the objective of Schedule 6 is to ensure that, as an inflexible condition of enforceability, certain basic minimum terms are included which the parties … and/or the court can identify within the four corners of the agreement. Those minimum provisions combined with the requirement under s.61 that all the terms should be in a single document, and backed up by the provisions of section 127(3), ensure that these core terms are expressly set out in the agreement itself: they cannot be orally agreed; they cannot be found in another document; they cannot be implied; and above all they cannot be in the slightest mis-stated. As a matter of policy, the lender is denied any room for manoeuvre in respect of them. On the other hand, they are basic provisions, and the only question for the court is whether they are, on a true construction, included in the agreement”. 2. The need for prescribed terms to be contained in the credit agreement is confirmed by the Author of the CCA1974 act, I quote ““As the draftsman of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 I would like to thank Dr Richard Lawson for his interesting and well-argued article (30 August 2003) on Wilson v First County Trust Ltd [2003] UKHL 40, [2003] 4 All ER 97. Dr Lawson may be interested to know that I included the provision in question (section 127(3)) entirely on my own initiative. It seemed right to me that if the creditor company couldn’t be bothered to ensure that all the prescribed particulars were accurately included in the credit agreement it deserved to find it unenforceable, and that the court should not have power to relieve it from this penalty. Nobody queried this, and it went through Parliament without debate. I’m glad the House of Lords has now vindicated my reasoning and confirmed that nobody’s human rights were infringed.” - 167 Justice of the Peace (2003) 773

Just starting to prepare for Monday, I'm not holding out much hope, but got nothing to loose really, I'll be long gone way before they get even a fraction of the money, after all the court can't order me to pay much by way of monthly payments! Will have a scout around various sites to get it straight in my head the relevant laws, guidances etc.

In the signature box it says, I have read the T&C setting out the agreement with Capital One..It doesn't say where they are, attached/overleaf, should it?

I did previously, but it was too small for most to read, not sure how to make it bigger. The header is: Ultra Short Application Form followed by 4 numbers In the box with my name and address, it says application closing date blah blah The small print which is headed 'credit agreement regulated by the consumer credit act 1974 in the signature box, (on the same page) ' is way way too small and smudged for anyone to read 5 A4 size pages of T&C all legible, not sure if they are copies of the original (assuming of course there was some) Then 7 pages of T&C of the defaulted agreement, I'm assuming that's the current T&C

When I had the telephone mediation appointment, they guy said they know they'll need the original in court, at the time it suggested to me, he had mentioned that fact. I I just love the way they waited until they had seen what documents I had submitted before deciding whether to pay the fee to continue, or send me anything! It will be an outrage if they are allowed to enforce based on the stuff they've sent me! I Can I appeal if needs be?

Almost all of the copied documents I.e application form, or credit agreement as they are calling it, is way too small and smudged for the average person to read. Obviously I will want to read through the original on the day of the hearing, but how can I ensure I will have the time, as its quite extensive. I was considering emailing and asking what time their solicitor will be at court to give me time. Or should I be writing to the court and asking them?

You gem Andy. Court hearing on the 10th November , I'm presuming I, or they do nothing until then, although I would love to submit to the court some of the new papers I've found!

I'm coming across more and more of the original paperwork, I have found a letter from cap one, and notes made by me saying they don't charge for a SAR, I have the SAR letter dated 19th June 2008, (according to Lowell's witness statement a payment of £10 was made on 11th July 2008) I also have a letter from Cap one dated 21st July 2008 thanking me for my SAR but saying it's not enclosed because I didn't pay the £10 fee, my thinking is, that the £10 Lowell refer to was in fact the fee, but credited to the account instead, because they did send me copies of the statements, which I've now found. I can now see that I made token payments regularly up until it became clear Cap One didn't have a CCA, or would admit they didn't, that's when I must have got angry with them and stopped even attempting to rectify the situation. Not sure if any of this would be of interest to the DJ, but it annoys me that 5 years later, I have been given the information I needed in 2008, yes I did opt for PPI and, yes the insurer details are in the terms and conditions! Really angry now! Not sure how the vast terms and conditions would have fitted on the back of the CCA or 'application form' which I believe is supposed to be the case???

I Defence 1) The Defendant accepts having had Credit facilities with Capital One PLC in the past. It is not admitted that the amount claimed is outstanding. 2) It is not acknowledged that the agreement was assigned to the claimant nor any admittance of the balance claimed. It is denied that I was ever served a Notice of Assignment. 3) It is denied that the claimant can add sec 69 interesticon to the amount claimed as per the County Courts Act 1984. I understand that this is awarded at the courts discretion and therefore invalidates the amount claimed, and is not a true reflection of any alleged indebtedness. 4) On receipt of the claim, the Defendant immediately requested copies of any documents or information that would support the claim. The request was made by CPR 31.14 and Section 78 request. The Claimant has ignored these requests and subsequent e-mails. I understand that until their compliance the Claimant is unable to request any relief or enforce any agreement. 5) Until such time the Claimant complies I the Defendant deny any liability to the Claimant and puts the claimant to strict proof to : (a) show how the Defendant has entered into an agreement with the Claimant; and (b) show how the Defendant has reached the amount claimed for; and © show how the Claimant has the legal right, either under statute or equity to issue a claim; 6) As per Civil Procedureicon Rule 16.5(4), it is expected that the Claimant prove the allegation that the money is owed. 7) By reason of the facts and matters set out above, it is denied that the Claimant is entitled to any relief at all.