Hi, The Dilema: A farmer who sells fruit from a money tree has a current account with an automatic overdraft facility of £250. The farmer and the money tree are very healthy. Over about four seasons the bank slowly increases the overdraft limit (just in case you need it) to £500 then £750 then £1000 then £1450. Eventually Autumn arrives in the fourth year and the leaves start to wilt on the money tree. The overdraft is used. At first £100 then £200 then before he knows it, spring arrives and £1450 is owed to the bank. So the farmer takes out a loan with the same bank to "consolidate" the overdraft and credit card debt to make it cheeper each month and thus free up money to buy a fertaliser to feed to the money tree to make it stronger and healthier than ever. The money tree regains its strength and bears leaves and fruit. All is well. Some time later there is a fierce winter and the money tree is almost killed. No amount of fertaliser will coax it to better condition. He informs the bank that the income from the money tree has drastically reduced and the loan repayment cannot be made in full each month The bank agree to a reduced payment each month. After one season the money tree starts to bear a little fruit, the bank coincidently send a letter requesting a higher payment each month. The farmer still can not easily do this, so refuses. The bank issues a county court claim for the full amount of the loan and the overdraft. Later in the spring the farmer discovers CAG, whilst googling Compost, Accentuators and Goodness. The farmer then spends hour after hour resarching and reading information and posts on this new CAG site. So he defends the claim after writting to the bank requesting a...............you guessed it........... a true copy of the agreement. Non was forthcoming and in Novemeber 06 the bank issued a notice of discontinuance to the court. The farmer wants all the money back that he has paid into the loan account, so will write a letter soon asking for a refund and defaults removed etc. However, the bank included in the same claim the overdraft amount some £3600. If the farmer attempts to reclaim the money paid into the loan account would that be an admission that there is money also owed by way of an overdraft. He recons that approx £15000 has been paid by direct debit to the loan account, from the current account, over the years but would like to take redress. There will be of course additional charges on the current account, although the amount is not known yet. Any comments or questions on the above story would be appreciated. Thanks pj41

Hi all, Are we sure it's a "criminal offence" and not just an "offence" If the company remains in default for a further month (30 days) it commits an offence. I'm mulling a dilema over and will post again later when I've gathered my thoughts. A yes or no will do thanks pj41

Hi, section 78 is for credit cards "rolling credit" For example you owe Nil on monday then buy a plasma screen for £4800 on tuesday, pay £1000 off the card on wednesday spend £2000 on cables and stuff to get it to work on thursday, spend friday not getting it to work and take it and the cables back to the store on saturday and get a refund credited to your account (clears following wednesday if your lucky) balance owed Purchases Nil but interest is charged for the debt for a few days something like £4.37 ie rolling credit. section 77 fixed sum, like a loan for eg £5000 (a fixed sum). Buy the plasma and cables and stuff pay cash, return it all and get a cash refund you still owe the bank £5000 plus interest each month. Thats how I understand it and I threw the examples in for fun lol. Hope I'm right. pj41

Hi Sibry, It wont affect your claim. However, you will need to obtain an account number to start the ball rolling. Write to city bank explaining that you require the account info relevent to you at the address where they sent statements to at the time the account was live with obviously other info like your full name and date of birth approximate time of opening account etc. You may just wish to send a Data Protection Act S.A.R - (Subject Access Request) plus £10 to "Cookie" (Mr Richard Cooke) with the above info and see what you get back. You will probabally recieve a form to complete requesting more info to identify you and then you should recieve statements going back 6 years (that's how long they legally have to keep your info). From your statements you can add up your charges and start your claim. Hope this helps. good luck pj41 ps: also be mindful that Citi read the threads in here so in time you may not wish them to know your name is simon from ossett in west yorks. They might monitor your thread when you would rather they didn't. Just better to know now than later.

Hi dj39, Sorry I couldn't give you a proper answer to your question in your pm. I hope that a site helper or mod will be along in due course to advise. Once again, good luck mate. Cheers pj41

Will do Stevenelmes thanks for reminding me. Cheers pj41

Hi dj59, This is beyond belief! If the court states a date to submit a defence by (whatever date) then that should be adheard to in my opinion. As I have stated above citi filed a defence in my case One day late. I had already requested Judgement on the morning of the day after the defence should have been filed by ( I have a Court Order stating the latest time to file a defence is by 4pm on the 19th December 2006, but the Court have sent me the AQ to complete and file by Monday next, as a defence has been filed (a day late) I have taken this opportunity to voice my disdain at the lack of responces to my claim on behalf of Citi bank and have made my points to the Court perfectly clear. I have included this as part of the "other information" section of the Allocation Questionaire (N150) that I have been requested to complete. In your case I would call the court (Claims management section and by the way ask the court reception for a direct line number it saves a load of time hanging on the phone waiting to be put through) and ask why they have accepted a defence submitted as late as that. Although it is up to the CLAIMANT to request Judgement when the time allowed has ellapsed. Should you recieve confirmation from the court that they (citi) have applied for a set aside PM me and I'll let you know what to write to the court to speed up the process. Hope the above is of some assistance. Cheers pj41

Hi Minkypink, Andrew and Tom, (So far) Fistly, well done Minkypink! Yes a great name reminds me of "The Scaffolds" who sang Lilly the pink, back in '67ish ( I WAS 3 ). anyway........ Minkypink all of what you have read above is correct. No paprework no pay them!! Simple. If they initiate court proceedings against you for the full amount (highly unlikley) but they might. Your defence is "they are in default of my properly documented and paid for request for the true/copy agreement under the CCA 1974. I believe that the claimant has also commited an offence. I respectfully conclude that the failure by the claimant to provide a copy of the documentation within the timescales laid down within the CCA 1974 is a complete defence in this action. I have written the above "to put your mind at rest" if they issue a claim against you, you may need some more help as to where to write it on the forms etc. Also, I did what you have just done and stopped a county court claim against me for ....................£28 thousand..........the loan company wrote to the court to "discontinue their claim". OK, if they find the agreement I will have to deal with that when and if it happens. However, I had a few beers that night after I receieved the letter from NatWest oops "the loan company". Relax now your in the driving seat with this one. If you need help just ask. All the Best pj41

Hi dj59, That is interesting!! Go get 'em cheers pj41

Hi dj59, I don't want to depress you too much but, Citi had lost in my case (by default) and later applied for a set aside after I had served a warrant of execution! They simply plead that (within the cpr rules) as they didin't receive the docs from the court they couldn't defend the claim. The hearing for the set aside was to be in late January so I wrote to the court agreeing to it and asking the court to order them to file a defence. The court did and citi filed a defence a day later than ordered and the court has accepted it! I have to return my AQ in due course. 'Thought you'd be interested. Cheers pj41

Hi, Mbna are threatening to sell my account to a debt collection agency on Friday this week. I have sent a CCA request on 12th december for a true copy of the agreement. As they have not defaulted yet (12 working days) can I fax them and say account is in dispute and stop them from selling it? thanks pj

Seconded! pj

WOW Exellent News. WELL DONE!! pj41

Hi LookingforInfo, I will keep you posted of developments as soon as I hear anything. With regard to a hearing for failure to supply what I requested. I have not initiated a claim for this and (forgive my ignorance here) am not sure what you are refering to, as I obviously dont want to see any executed agreement from them. When the dust settles and I win or lose, I will report them to the correct authorities for thier breach and let some other b****r sort them out. lol cheers pj41

Hi wholesaletrader, Personally, I would continue with your MCOL. That's just what they want people to do. WAIT and UM and ARR and Wait for someone, somewhere to say "Its all sorted, write a nice letter and they will pay you". They wont until they are hauled in front of the Judiciary and forced to concede that we are right and they are not. IMHO. Your money wont come back to you if you dont do anything. If you claim what is rightfully yours then at some point they will pay out. It is a long haul with this company but we are all here to advise one another as we are all at different stages in our claims AGAINST CITI BANK EUROPE LTD. Good luck pj41

Hi lookingforinfo, apologies for posting a shortened version in my first post (didn't want to bore people to death) Anyhow thanks for your second post I take on board what you have said. Cheers pj41

Hi lookingforinfo, Thanks for your response. To give you some more information: I did the CCA request in May 06 and they have not forwarded ANY info. No true copy agreement No deed of assignment No statement All they say (as of 10 days ago) is it's on order. The DCA issued a claim for the full "debt" in May and I defended on the above basis and the claim was Stayed. I have already issued a claim for the money I paid to them and am awaiting a decision from the court. Defence and AQ's filed. I will wait and see as I am expecting something from the court in the next few days. Considering the time that has elapsed over 6 month I am fairly sure that the original creditor has lost the "agreement". I have tonight drafted a CCA request to them. There is a lot of information in other threads "Loan company cannot find the agreement" in which I have had one major triumph. These DCA's I have to say are so full of c**p with what they say and demand when writing to us debtors. So what you are saying is that although the agreement is cancelled it still exists on the DCA's file. For your info, I have another DCA flatly refusing that the CCA template letter applies to them as the agreement has been cancelled. So who's right? I've lost nothing (appart from a few quid in court costs if I Lose) by initiating my court claim for the refund of money paid. All can happen is they start chasing me again when and if they find a copy of the original agreement. I really think that this area is so grey it needs blowing out of the water either one way or the other. thanks again pj41

Hi all, Just a quicky, A creditcard company "sells" a debt to a Debt Collection agency. The debtor (me) sends a CCA request to the DCA and no response so issues a County Court Claim for money I have paid them (no docs so not entitled to my Money is what I think) The DCA defends with amongst other things a copy of my current county court claim for default charges by the original Credit Card Company to prove I had a debt (so what!) The original agreement with the credit card company is cancelled (I have that i writing) so I KNOW that their Terms and Conditions are cancelled too. They need my express permission to send anyone else my personal details. Is a copy of a county court claim deemed personal details that I could get them for breaching the Data Protection Act. Any comments appreciated. Cheers pj41

Hi Rich, Well done with what you wanted to achieve. However, in considering all that you have said. Citi will have to disclose (at some point) what their default COSTS are and ANYTHING above that is a penalty and is therefore open to the court to decide upon. I have to say that EVERY bank and financial istitution is colapsing here and paying out. Citi consider themselves above the English Law because they are American owned. Cheers Pj41

Hi Neil, Time will tell !! Just wait until you receive the copy statements and have the oportunity to look at how much you've been charged. Claim the lot plus the 8% interest. Cheers pj41

Hi Halznpeanut, Well that's where this site comes in. It's not you or me it's ALL of us collectively demanding what's right. The blackboard may soon read: "today's target £100,000 (LESS 20% FOR THE MEMBERS OF CAG WHO ANNOY US, THEREFORE THE BOSS SAYS £80,000 is OK for today". Gives me a feeling of winning! cheers Paul

Banks will gladly lend an umberella, but when it rains they want it back. They do not stop in there quest for money. Imagine a room with 100 telephonists facing a blackboard on it is written "todays target £100,000" "we have recovered £45,000 as at 2pm" That's how it works its a target to achieve and bonuses to be paid. Hence the staff will try anything to get you to commit to a payment on the phone, it's a drug for these people Money, Money, Money. No one stops to think that maybe the poor s*d that they are phoning for money has nothing to feed the kids with today, or repair the car to get to work to pay the mortgage/rent or the council tax or the gas and the electric and the VAT on everthing we buy and declare everthing we earn to pay income tax etc. Things in daily lives change constantly but rest assured that the number on the finance house "blackboard" will be increased weekly (its a target) they threaten their sad staff with "don't do it and we will sack you and get someone else". Then these people have no job to feed the kids and pay the mortgage/rent or the council tax etc......... it can happen to the best of us and when it does the ex bank/loan staff will be joining the rest of us who want to make sure that what crap we are being fed by letter and phone from these sharks is in every posible way a lawful request to payup. If not tough!!! I care about them as much as they care about me and my family. If they dont obey the LAW then tough they should have invested more heavily in procedures of the business, not just collections. pj41 rant over!

Hi Both of you, I have to say what a superb reply to minkypink you did there Andrew, well done mate. Minkypink as Andrew said we can give you loads of help just ask, and DONT WORRY !! its only money. I will do my best to keep an eye on you too and If I can help I will, if not, I'll get you some. All the best pj41

How have you requested the information? Have you sent a DPA SAR letter and paid the £10 fee? cheers pj41

Hi B ailyboy, I do not, and dont think anyone else in here either, would encourage people to or try to find themselves a way to wriggle out of paying what they legitamately owe. However, financial institutions produce very lengthy terms and conditions on the reverse of loan application forms, and on the front it will say "this agreement is covered by the Consumer Credit Act 1974 do not sign it unless you want to be legally bound to its terms. (or words to that effect). They if we dont pay through hardship or whatever then issue a default notice in accordance with the same legislation. The Act is two way traffic and as we now know can offer us some protection. All we are asking is show me a copy of the doc I signed and send me a statement. The repercussions that follow by not complying is there own fault. Cheers pj41