hmmm sounds very similar to what i have to be honest...

last 2 days - no calls from them - seems theyre gettign the message, they have resorted to usign different nos to contact me - am i legally allowed to post up these nos theyre using for everyone else to see?

also i forget how to post up a document - anyone know?

WILSON & ANR.

Defendants/

Appellants

- and -

HURSTANGER LTD

Claimant/

Respondent

The above case law quote backs this up as well the all prescribed terms have to be in same agreement document to be legally enforceable!

Have you set up an account with photbucket? It is free and allows you to upload files from your computer and blank out personal details on them so you can copy and past it on your thread! I have used it and soon got the hang of it and most caggers prefer photobucket as it is so easy to use:)

Dear Sirs,

Account Number: XXX

Re; your recent reply to my request under section 77-79 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974

I note that you have replied to the above by sending a copy of an application form and your companies current Terms and conditions I must inform you that this is not sufficient to comply with the request and that your company is still in default under the act.

To clarify, just sending the Terms and Conditions is a breach of the Act and Regulations as, apart from the information that the Regulations provide that you may exclude, the copy must be a “true copy” of the agreement.

This breach of the agreement can be demonstrated as follows;

As you will know section 180(1) (b) authorises, “the omission from a copy of certain material from the original, or the inclusion of certain material in condensed form.” This refers to statutory instruments made under the heading Copies of document regulations and in this care in particular to SI 1983/1557.

Before leaving section 180 there are two other sections that should be remembered these are:

Section 2(2) (a) A duty imposed by any provision of this Act (except section 35) to supply a copy of any document is not satisfied unless the copy supplied is in the prescribed form and conforms to the prescribed requirements;

And more importantly

Section 2(b) A duty imposed by any provision of this Act (except section 35) to supply a copy of any document is not infringed by the omission of any material, or its inclusion in condensed form, if that is authorised by regulations.

You will see that this quite clearly states that whilst certain items may be left out of the copy document the rest of the document must be in the form and contain all items as prescribed by the regulations.

Turning to the regulations regarding what may be omitted from these copies these are contained with SI 1983/1557.

The regulations state:

(2) There may be omitted from any such copy-

(a) any information included in an executed agreement, security instrument or other document relating to the debtor, hirer or surety or included for the use of the creditor or owner only which is not required to be included therein by the Act or any Regulations thereunder as to the form and content of the document of which it is a copy;

(b) any signature box, signature or date of signature (other than, in the case of a copy of a cancelable executed agreement delivered to the debtor under section 63(1) of the Act, the date of signature by the debtor of an agreement to which section 68(b) of the Act applies);

It is quite clear what can be omitted from the copy document, this again asserts that all other details of the agreement should presented in form and content as required by the regulations.

The requirements of the Agreement regulations 1983/1553 are very explicit in describing the form and content of an agreement and this as I have demonstrated also applies to the copy of any such agreement with the above mentioned proviso.

Nowhere within these regulations does it state that part of the agreement can be presented on a separate document headed terms and conditions.

It does state that all terms and conditions should be within the agreement document and is explicit of the form in which it is presented.

I hope this explains why your reply was unacceptable I await a True copy of my agreement and would remind you again that whilst the request has not been complied with the default continues

Yours faithfully

Account In Dispute

Account No

Dear Sir/Madam

I am in receipt of your letter of the ----February 2009 I am writing to you to state that unfortunatly the documents you enclosed with letter dated --- September 2008 still has not produced any evidence that the Agreement is enforceable for the following reasons.

1.One of the documents you sent is an application form.Neither of the documents carry the correct title in the prescribed form giving the nature of the agreement as laid down by schedule 1 of the Consumer Credit (Agreements) regulations 1983.if they are considered to be be suitable as becoming Agreements once properly executed.The missing title being- Credit Card Agreement Regulated by the Consumer Credit Act 1974.

2.Agreements must contain the prescribed terms within the four corners and furthermore no where on the front is there any reference to the prescribed terms and conditions which are necessary to make this agreement enforceable.

3.There is no proof that the second page is from the same agreement .An agreement that is not properly executed and was signed before 2007 is not enforceable unless it has the debtors signature and the prescribed terms in the same document.Nowhere within regulations does it state that part of the agreement can be presented on a separate document headed terms and conditionsThe prescribed terms must be within the four corners of the agreement and as you will be aware there is a House of Lords' authority on this: Lord Justice Tuckey in the case of Wilson v Hurstanger 2007 EWCA civ 299.

.The courts powers to enforce an agreement that is not properly executed and that was entered into before 2007 are limited by section 127(3) of the Consumer Credit Act 1974.This section says that an agreement that is not properly executed can only be enforced if it consists of a single document .

a) signed by the debtor, and

b)has the prescribed terms

You are reminded that should you choose litigation as your course of action you will be required to provide the original dodcument for the Court.

4.I also am unable to read the information on one page of the Application form due to the utter illegibility of the copy. This in itself contravenes the Consumer Credit (Cancellation Notices and Copies of Documents) Regulations 1983 (SI 1983/1557).

Regulation 2 states:

2 Legibility of notices and copy documents and wording of prescribed Forms

(1) The lettering in every notice in a Form prescribed by these Regulations and in every copy of an executed agreement, security instrument or other document referred to in the Act and delivered or sent to a debtor, hirer or surety under any provision of the Act shall, apart from any signature, be easily legible and of a colour which is readily distinguishable from the .

You should be aware that a creditor is not permitted to take ANY action against an account whilst it remains in dispute. The lack of a compliant credit agreement is a very clear dispute and as such the following applies:

You may not demand any payment on the account, nor am I obliged to offer any payment to you.

You may not add further interest or charges to the account.

You may not pass the account to a third party.

You may not register any information in respect of the account with any Credit Reference Agency.

You may not issue a default notice in respect of the account.

If however you do still retain a copy of the original signed Agreement with all of the prescribed terms as laid down in the regulations, then I request to be allowed to view this at your offices.

So in reference to this copy of the credit agreement in which you claim it is compliant under section 78 of the consumer credit act 1974. (As I am sure you are aware, your statement is now binding under the same act-) I have concerns as to the authenticity in relation of the document which was sent with your letter dated xx Jan 2009

One of my main concerns is specifically related to the front and back parts of the agreement in question. Whilst I do not disagree these two parts may exist as separate documents my concern is that the front part of the agreement refers to a section of the back that does not exist. It is therefore reasonable under these circumstances to assume that the single document (both front and back parts) sent as the agreement is two separate documents photocopied onto 1 sheet of paper.

As the document supplied by MBNA is an important legal document I would be grateful if you could confirm that the front and back is a single document and reflects the original exactly on both sides or two separate documents photocopied onto on sheet of paper, for example to save on paper costs or postage costs which would not be considered unreasonable.

However if you still maintain that the second page with terms and conditions is indeed on back of that signed application form so they are both on same page and that you still believe you have a correctly executed enforceable agreementI think the best way way forward to resolve this matter to both our satisfaction would be for you to contact me to arrange a convienent time for me to come over to your office to view the original agreement. i would appreciate your due diligence in this matter.

I look forward to hearing from you in writing.

yours Faithfully

Perhaps one of the above letters amended to suit wouldd be ok to use.Though if your cca legilble for instance you may want to remove that point from your letter,I used both oletters in past in 78 request and you leaving a bit of a paer trial should it ever get to litigation stage!

HERES THE LINKS TO MY CAP ONE LETTER - page 1 and page 2.. hope these links work ok?

Image - TinyPic - Free Image Hosting, Photo Sharing & Video Hosting

Image - TinyPic - Free Image Hosting, Photo Sharing & Video Hosting

Image - TinyPic - Free Image Hosting, Photo Sharing & Video Hosting

and this link is for the alledged signed agreement.........hmmmm is an application form of guanrateed acceptance - how they think this has all the prescibed TnC's on it beggars belief... they did sned some other sheets with this agreement form, photocpies of about 5 pages of consuemr crdit bumph - i havent read them, as its clear they just got some muppett to copy them up and put them in the envelope with the signed agreement form.

id be interested to see what people think of this form - is it a signed true and executed copy of the CCA 1974 that they need....?

ps - thanks for letters sunflower - very much appreciated

ill get 2 of these off today - one for me and one for wife! thnaks again for other info too - youve been ever so helpful!

Pete

Hi pDaddy

Though it is difficult to read small print it looks to me just like an application form,Is that all they sent ? i would be very surprisedif it had any prescribed terms on it as lets say crapital One are not very good with doing properly execcuted alleged agreements during those times!

hiya, yeah they sent this 'application form' and with it about 5 pages of a4 as the terms and conditions - shall i scan them in too and post? the header on page one of these T&Cs is called CREDIT AGREEMENT REGUALTED BY THE CONSUMER CREDIT ACT 1974

hiya, yeah they sent this 'application form' and with it about 5 pages of a4 as the terms and conditions - shall i scan them in too and post? the header on page one of these T&Cs is called CREDIT AGREEMENT REGUALTED BY THE CONSUMER CREDIT ACT 1974

usual reply from them for CCA request, next lowlife/crapquest no doubt

thnaks mike - sorry who are lowlife and capquest?

i suspect those ts and cs maybe some ones they found knocking round to enclose with your application form;) Do they sate anything about penalty charges? and if they do are they for £12m or £25 ? Does application from refer to any terms overleaf or in sepearte document as it difficult to readthe small print?

Capquest is a lowlife DCA Crapital One commonly set on people after Debitarse given up! They are quite persisatnt but as long as you make them aware you fullly know your rights and send them a few stern account in dispute letters they normally give up going by most crap one threads,You will get help on here to see them off if they do get set on you. i was one of the few who did not get them set on me for some reason!

lucky you eh? : )

ill try and read therough the T&Cs bit - thanks for the info, ill get back to you once fully digested their 5 pages... and by that i mena i will eat them, as theyre good for nothing else - maybe the circualr filing tray?

thnaks mike - sorry who are lowlife and capquest?

Lowlife is LOVELLS, CRAPQUEST IS CAPQUEST.

usual reply from them for CCA request, next lowlife/capquest no doubt

Hi Mike

aahhh ! so Lowlife is Lowells! LOL They are also known as the Leeds loosers on here i belive!Craptal one seem to be setting Lowells on people a lot these days even on some of their long term disputed accounts!I was expecting to get a letter from them but been lucky so far!I seem top have really badly upset Ellie at Crapital One! She stopped sending me nice people to call on me and write to me!

Hi Pdaddy

Just that charges give away the time card was taken out i think charges would havre been £25 in year you took card out so if they state £12 charges the ones enclosed are more recent ts and cs and not the ones when you took your card out!

Hi Mike

aahhh ! so Lowlife is Lowells! LOL They are also known as the Leeds loosers on here i belive!Craptal one seem to be setting Lowells on people a lot these days even on some of their long term disputed accounts!I was expecting to get a letter from them but been lucky so far!I seem top have really badly upset Ellie at Crapital One! She stopped sending me nice people to call on me and write to me!

Did I not hear somewhere she had left Crap one on maternity leave earlier this year??

Hi Pdaddy

Just that charges give away the time card was taken out i think charges would havre been £25 in year you took card out so if they state £12 charges the ones enclosed are more recent ts and cs and not the ones when you took your card out!

T&Cs sent out by them are not the actual correct ones ignore them, I was sent T&C stating £12 yet somewhere in small print charges as from 2001

more crap from crap one, and some document manufactured as CCA agreement which headed Application for all blank, except a blown up so called agreement signature.

Did I not hear somewhere she had left Crap one on maternity leave earlier this year??

LOL! yes i did hear that she maybe on maternity leave at moment buti expect Crapital one found a lovely replacement! and this one seem to have a penchant for the Leeds Loosers! particulary on accounts been in dispute a while!I am feeling quite left out! as for some reson they dont want to play pass the parcel with me!Now i said that i expect i will get Lowells or capquest crawling out of wood work!