urgent help now pls. stay refused in court rt now

[skintcumbrian]

Hi All

 

I have used Vampiress' advanced spreadsheet to work out my charges on my personal account. I understand which figures to put in my prelim letter, but am completely confused about contractual interest - do I or don't I seek to get that back as well?

 

I've now got so many bookmarks for this site that I can't track down where I read all the stuff about contractual so if anyone could point me back to it?! Thanks

 

Secondly, I also have a business account with HSBC and I've worked the charges out for that too. However, many of the charges seem to be 'perfectly legit' service charges for banking cheques etc, which I'm pretty sure I agreed to when I opened the account - after my 1 yr free banking anyway. How can I find out which ones are penalties? I got copy statements but they just say "Total charges" not what each charge was for.

 

If I deduct the 40 or so charges that seem fairly 'reasonable' (around £10 a month), then they still seem to owe me about £1000 + interest of about £50. Can I estimate the penalties or is that likely to fail? The bank made me an immediate offer when I complained through the Financial Ombudsman of £150 so they obviously felt I was owed something back!

 

My mortage is also with HSBC, they can't claim that back can they if I succeed with these claims? I've managed to get all my accounts under my overdraft limits in order to make life easier with this claim but my mortgage would prove very difficult to pay back in one go!

 

Thanks for all the help on this site.

[sharkie]

Have you had a look at this

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/hsbc-bank/15518-charges-description-statements-please.html

 

it might help

 

 

Sharkie

[skintcumbrian]

Thanks Sharkie, I have read that post (amongst many, many others!)

 

The things is with biz accounts that you sort of agree to pay 28p to process a cheque, and 15p per credit card transaction etc (or whatever, I can't find any paperwork in the files about what the real figures were in our original contract in 1997, but I will find that contract somewhere soon - tis only a matter of looking I'm sure).

 

So, where all my monthly charges on the biz account are around £10 I have no issue, it's the months at £100+ per month I b*&^%$y object to. But I can't find the breakdowns of them all in the accounts that legally we have to keep for 5 years.

 

I talked to someone this evening in the pub and they said they always get the statement of charges at a totally different time to the monthly statement, and I suspect I have too now I think about it. Now I just need to find them all cos maybe they got filed somewhere else as the accountant didn't want them with the other stuff for end Jan tax returns etc. (Just trying to guess where they may have gone).

 

The sad thing is that I suspect many businesses /sole proprietors end up in this awful state - you think it's your fault your business is losing money. Then you look at the bank statements and find your bank is actually driving you out of business. I never fought back before now as I was convinced it was my fault there was no money coming in. I didn't realise it was haemorraging (sp?!) outwards.

 

Too late now, my biz was closed at the end of Jan purely because the bank overdraft would leave me trading insolvent in 2007. Without the charges I think I'd still be in business.

 

No wonder so many companies operate abroad now. What we are seeing in the UK seems to be equivalent to the decline of the Roman Empire. We seem determined in this country to bring everyone to their knees. I wish I knew why.

[sharkie]

Have a look at this thread they appear to have calculated theirs.

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/hsbc-bank/49902-shelty-hsbc-business-c.html?highlight=Business#post543958

 

 

Keep on plugging, they must pay.

 

 

Sharkie

[sharkie]

How are you getting on with your charges, there have been a few more posts about business accounts.

 

regards

 

 

Sharkie

[skintcumbrian]

Bank statement arrived today for the account which I am trying to close. Once again, charges for last month of £68.25. I phoned HSBC to ask exactly how there were charges of so much.

 

£1.25 is an activity charge commission (whatever that is)

£3.00 is an account fee

£64.00 is £4 for each of 16 times the account was overdrawn. (This makes no sense as the account was only actually out of overdraft for 4 days in that charging period.)

 

The charges have now taken the account back into overdraft. And as it was the 6th Feb when the account was pushed back into overdraft, there is presumably now another 16 x£4 to pay this month as well. GRRRRRRRR

 

However, I have an agreed overdraft with them so presumably these charges are substantially lower than if I didn't.

 

I can now though work through the statements and calculate how many days each month the overdraft was overdrawn. It seems though that it must be up to a maximum per month because in Dec last year the account was overdrawn all month and there was only (only?!) an £80 charge.

 

Anyone any ideas how HSBC calculate this? On their explanation there was no charge for the direct debits on the account for starters, so the only fees I could be paying otherwise would be on cheques - paying in and out, and for actually banking with them.

 

Cheers

[skintcumbrian]

Aha, found details of the charges. Still makes no sense.

 

Business Banking Price List

 

 

But I'm going to apply them to every month and see what we end up with. Going to be far more accurate than without the list of charges!

[skintcumbrian]

MCOL FAQs state "Please note that the only punctuation you can use is full stops or commas - all other punctuation is treated by our system as illegal characters, including £ signs."

 

Has anyone had a problem using £ signs or do we have to use GBP or something similar?

 

Cheers

[skintcumbrian]

Can someone pls confirm that for the final bit of the MCOL, using the figures from Vampiress's spreadsheets:

 

Penalties charged + 8% on penalties + interest on penalties + 8% interest on penalties= amount claimed.

 

(&= one helluva lot more than I'd imagined!)

 

I have sent every letter on time to HSBC and received nothing back. The deadline for the MCOL is today Tuesday and I would like to make sure all is correct before hitting submit.

 

So, if anyone can confirm the above I'd be really grateful.

 

(The biz account claim is on hold although they are now piling on £75-£100 a month charges for an account that is no longer used as I have a parachute account. If I can just get through this MCOL stuff once, I'll do it again!)

 

 

Thank you.

[skintcumbrian]

Above confirmed. Thanks to the chat room, another great resource!

[skintcumbrian]

Acknowledgement of service received today. HSBC intend to defend whole claim. 28 _more_ days to wait now....

[skintcumbrian]

Couple of questions pls. In the 6 weeks or so since I filed with MCOL, I've forgotten most of what I had read previously here and can't find it all again now!

 

1. I've filed with MCOL, HSBC have submitted a defence on 19/03/07 -disputing entire amount. I haven't heard anything from the court though. Is that normal? Should I contact the court as it's been almost a month now since the defence was filed.

 

2. At what point do I have to prepare my AQ? Also, can someone point me to the correct thread about AQs as the forum is getting huge and it's not getting any easier to find things!

 

3. This morning a bank statement arrived with another £125 charge on it. Can I add this to my claim?

 

4. At what point should I send anything to DG and what should I send?

 

Many thanks

[Rayne]

I would contact MCOL in the first instance just see what's happened.

 

With regards to the AQ, certainly read up on it, although it seems pointless at the moment as the courts seem to have pretty much done away with them to clear the logjam of claims thanks to the banks solicitors wasting their time. This might help with regards to the AQ http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/faqs-please-read-these/25457-guide-reclaiming-bank-charges.html?garpg=14

 

You CAN add that charge on but at this stage it will cost you a non-returnable £35 to alter your claim.

 

If you haven't already sent DG your breakdown I would do it now as they WILL ask for it anyway and it'll save a couple of days in the process.

 

Hope that helps and good luck

[rob-the-viking]

Do read up on the AQ skintcumbrian, I thought mine had been done away with and to my surprise the letter that arrived this morning that i though was going to be a court date, turned out to be an AQ after all!!

[skintcumbrian]

Just been to meeting at the bank as they had put £125 charges on me last month (again) and also taken money from the business account to clear the overdraft which I wasn't happy about. Nice rural branch. Lovely lady showed me the screen. And there it was, drafted and ready to be sent. A full offer letter for my charges. They have deducted the interest on charges, multiplied by 85%, not included court fee etc. But, as we haven't even got to a court date yet this is surely an indication that HSBC processes are well under control and timely. The delays and grief are coming from DG it would seem to me.

Will keep pushing for 100% plus all interest charges once letter arrives. But it was interesting to see it all there on the internal HSBC computer!

[skintcumbrian]

My branch are now telling me that a letter has been sent by HSBC with an offer. However, I have not received it. I did however receive two follow up letters which I thought related to me trying to close an old joint account NOT the bank charges kerfuffle. The reference codes on the letter and the content didn't make it clear what they were referring to and I had actually received a letter pertaining to the old joint account around the date of the letter they referred to. I feel like HSBC aren't playing fair here as there is no sign of any offer letter on my doorstep.

 

Despite frequent calls to the number on the letters I did receive I was put on hold for 45mins upwards at a time and never got through to talk to anyone at HSBC "Central". My branch have tried to re-open the issue, as HSBC central appear to be saying that as I didn't respond within 7 days, that's the end of the matter. But how could I if I never received the offer letter and knew nothing about it till I called in at my branch???

 

I am now trying to write to D&G saying that I have not received an offer letter, have only been informed verbally by my branch that one has been sent, and that am not willing to accept the offer anyway (it was for approx £3k and my MCOL claim is for £4700 inc costs), and that I am going to court with this on August 9th still.

 

Can anyone help and ease a little confusion? On my "rejection of an offer I have never received" letter to D & G, do I put the amount from my MCOL Claim on the date it was submitted, the amount it is now (today) plus 8% or what?

 

Many thanks

 

P.S. Where has the chat room gone? Is it closed for good? I miss the instant help and advice!

[Celicaman]

Hi Skint, I got my offer yesterday, full amount with stat up till yesterday & Costs. Court date was 11th July, so although the bank may see an offer on screen, DG, seem to be waitingtill the old bundle lands on their lap before they send it. Sent mine last monday for wednesday, offer sent 29th. May have a bit of waiting to do yet. DG will o as they see fit aslong as HSBC dont get into court

 

Goood luck

CM

[Castlebest]

I would forget the HSBC offer as it wasnt enough anyway and they always come with a "this offer is open for 10 days after that we will assume you have rejected it" clause.

 

Just stick to your guns with the court claim and wait for your real offer off DG Solicitors.

 

pete

 

PS... did Celica tell you he won ?

[skintcumbrian]

The directions are as follows:

 

The Claimant within 14 days of service of this order shall send to the Defendant and to the Court:

a) A schedule setting out each charge repayment of which is sought, showing the date, amount and reason given (if any) for that charge being made;

b) Copies of any statement or other document relied upon as showing that each and every charge has been made;

c) a statement of evidence of all matters relied upon as tending to show that the charges are irrecoverable as penalties or otherwise;

d) Copies of decided cases and other legal materials to be relied upon

 

I'm ransacking the forums for details of what I need to send but can anyone point me to a full list for my court bundle quickly plus a reasonable statement of evidence? I have literally one day to print out all this and get it to court.

 

Thanks all.

[pinkduchess]

court bundles for dummies

 

Court Bundle

Basic Court Bundle

[freakyleaky]

Come back with any questions. Soon have it done!

[Castlebest]

Its a Bundle lite, but I think most people are doing a full bundle anyway

 

pete

[skintcumbrian]

Ongoing house renovation and cleared office. Discovered file of statements for 1998-2001. (Suspect now that there may well be some ancient bank statements in my parents' house too so am going to investigate that!)

 

The charges from that 3 year period alone are over £800 so here comes claim 2 methinks! (Claim 1 in court in 3 weeks for just shy of £5k for 2001 -7).

 

I have had a Midland/HSBC account since the 80s and it has been pretty much perpetually overdrawn.

 

Question 1: Is it worth pursuing contractual interest on a claim for these newly discovered statements? Can anyone point me to the best thread about contractual interest? I've read a few and think it must be worth going for the 18% and see what they offer. Thoughts?

 

Question 2: Is it worth estimating the charges back from 1998 to when I opened the account in the early 80s or does that fall foul of existing laws that protect us? 28 years at £250+ per year of charges adds up. (I've got it as a £25 charge in Dec 1998 has approx £10 of interest on it, without the 8% or contractual. Is this right???)

 

Question 3: Since I completed my MCOL in March, HSBC have religiously slapped £150/month charges on me, higher than ever before and I have no way of stopping them until they pay up on claim 1. Should I start a separate claim to get those back or combine it with the pre-6 years, estimates and contractual interest claim/s?

 

 

Many thanks

[jowalshy]

Hi there. Here is a link to Bong's thread of which she won a claim with contractual interest. It is the only one that I know of. As for your other questions, hopefully with me bumping this thread to the top of the list someone should be able to help you further.

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/hsbc-bank/33005-bong-hsbc-contractual-interest.html

[chauvesouris]

Okay, this is quite a complicated question.

 

Firstly, if you can't prove it, you can't claim it - so estimated charges will not do.

 

Secondly, there are two ways around the 6 year limit: the exemption in s32(1)(b) of the Limitation Act 1980, and; the fact that UTCCR is EU legislation and so arbitrary limits (such as those from the LA 1980) cannot be applied to reduce the compensation somebody should receive.

 

If you seek to rely on s32 then you will be relying on a judge finding that you could not, with reasonable diligence, have discovered that the bank were concealing their true costs from you. Legally I think this is a very weak argument and would be highly unlikely to succeed if it went to court.

 

If you rely on UTCCR then you must be a consumer (so this can't be a business account), and you can only claim back to the implementation date of Directive 93/13/EEC - 31 December 1994.

 

However there are other factors at work here: mainly the banks' reluctance to allow any of these cases near a court. But the fact that your case is only for >6 yr charges might mean that they would be more willing to challenge it as there would be less danger of them having to defend the basic principles of penalties and unfair terms.

 

So, as with most legal questions: it's a bit unclear and it could go either way.