Mum and her unecessary Loan ( LLoyds)

[fuzzywuzzy]

Hello

 

Long post as I have been processing this complaint for some time.

Its in relation to pensioners Loan, possibly miss sold.

Thnak you if you manage to get through to the end.

 

Mums 76

Has difficulty processing financial information, can calculate money in hand ( £100 in the local shops) but beyond that is having difficulty.

 

Mum has recorded books from the library as reading anything to long she has dizzy spells and also has trouble absorbing the information.

 

Mums Overdrafts increase, as we discovered had been subsidizing her normal living expenses of which she should have been claiming pension credit, housing benefit.

 

She has now been with a lady from the benefits office for 2 months and her benefits are being back dated to October 2006 which was when she realized she needed help,( the overdrafts actually gave her a false sense of financial security) but sadly 1 month after the Loan was written. Apparently Mum has been living on a low income for a few years.

 

Mum went to Lloyd's as she became frightened as both Overdrafts had been allowed to go Overdrawn to £900 and £500.

 

Mum merely went to Lloyd's as she needed to discuss this problem.

 

Mum left Lloyd's with a Loan for £1650 of which she thought was £1250.

 

Mum signed a Direct Debit Authroisation.... Printed on the reverse of the Personnel Check List and which has a combined signature on the front. The Personnel Check list boxes had all been crossed by the salesman. These should have been for mum to read , but mum would not have been able to understand the context.

 

I have highlighted to Lloyd's that having the Direct Debit signature combined with the Personnel Loan check List Agreement is an opening for abuse.

 

As soon as i learned of the Loan i made an appointment the next day with the Branch Manager ( who wrote the Loan)

 

I was advised I could request a copy of the signed agreement as Lloyd's never !! hand out signed copies at the point of sale( Which the FOS swears blind they do:rolleyes: ).

 

Also i requested a copy of the I&E report,

This will be a great insight as to how my mums income was processed as there is no way she had an allowance to repay this loan.

 

I have confirmed that the I&E stays at the branch after the signing of a Loan and i could have received this on the day. But... this I&E is the only paperwork I have not received.

 

So far Lloyd's have taken 9 weeks to process my complaint, the FOSS have waited 8 weeks as they should for the bank to deal with my complaint. Now the FOS are on hold for 4 weeks minimum due to their back log.

 

My arguments against this case are.

Mum was unable to process the information at the meeting and could not have possibly read all the terms and conditions if given a week.

 

Mums income was now effected greatly as she would now be paying a loan with her Overdrafts as they subsidies her living.

Both Overdrafts were left with an available increase to £900 at the time i intervened they were set at £300 and £500.

 

Mum signed the loan simply because it was the only option placed in front of her and when she left the bank she actually thought she had money as she did not understand the implications involved, also the amount was £400 higher and when i informed her of the total if paid back over 4 years she was oblivious to it all.

 

My argument is if they had lowered her overdraft facility by £50 a month mum would have been forced to acknowledge a problem sooner, and then seek help from a debit advisory or family. As it is she was given a false sense of financial security. As mum qualified for the loan, she believed she had a good income.

 

Lloyd's to date have declined to uphold my complaint and i have replied with an in depth letter. I will make further posts In case of space allowance in each post.

[fuzzywuzzy]

MY LATEST RESPONCE TO LLOYDS AGAINST THIER REASONS NOT TO UPHOLD MY COMPLAINT.

 

I write to advise that I am unhappy regarding your response to my complaint and also the length of time in which it has taken to reply.

If I understand your final paragraph. What happens next? I am to reply if I need more help, in the possibility that an agreement maybe reached.

Therefore I have to ask after waiting over 8 weeks why would there be any further help available with in this complaint and why would there be an outstanding possibility of an agreement that is not offered with in your letter. I find the length of time waiting for the response I have received is extremely unfair and so will be forwarding a copy, along with a copy of this reply to the FOS, Who has been aware of my complaint since 21st May 2007.

Your response.

• You state you have not changed my mum’s financial position,

You have placed Mum in a position that will cost her extra in interest to return borrowed funds, and you have also left her in the position with available Overdrafts at £500 and £300 of which would have been used again. This is due to the fact that mums Overdrafts already sustained her basic standard of living, which has now been placed below a basic standard of living due to this £46.

so not only would mum still be using her Overdrafts for her basic standard of living but she would have also need to use her Overdraft facility to repay this loan, therefore I see your statement that you have not changed my mothers finances to be totally inadequate. As you state mum already owed the money and as a responsible lender, I fail to see how mum was allowed to actually get into this debit in the first place. Her income did not warrant such overdrafts and most definitely not a loan.

• You gave mum a structured repayment programme for her borrowing.

As I have stated above, a borrowing that should never have been allowed to grow to the extent it did. Mums income was nowhere near the amount of which her overdraft was allowed to grow. Yet at no time did you contact her for a revised assessment when it was obviously getting out of control, but yet still after refinancing her with a loan, you leave both her overdrafts accessible with an additional £900 on both accounts upon request.

• You state you have effectively allowed mum to reduce her overdraft by £50 a month.

You have not effectively done this, what you have done is signed mum up to an agreement where she has to with out fail pay you £46 a month from her pension, were as a £50 reduction a month of her overdrafts would have stopped the Overdrafts at the limits they were. As it is the only thing you have done effectively is cleared the overdrafts ready for mum to reuse to live her basic standard of living and pay you the loan as stated above.

However with the reduction of the £50 a month mum would have had no choice but to approach a debit advisory service or a family member for help, Rather than be given a false sense of security that her income was at a healthy level by being written a loan.

• You state that the conduct of my mums account is the basis for the lending of this loan.

My mums accounts were both severely overdrawn therefore I fail to see how this can be used to show a sign of good conduct; however it is a positive sign that my mums finances were out of control, Therefore I fail to see how you warrant applying a loan to mums accounts. As the overdrawn status is an obvious sign her income was not enough for her out goings.

• You state mum was happy to sign the terms and conditions.

As I fully believe my mum was never offered an alternative option, along with the fact that mum was not under the full understanding of what she was signing.

I believe my mum signed paper work as it was put in front of her with out the full knowledge of its true meaning, as is the case with the personnel check list, a copy of which I have forwarded to the FOS.

I also believe that she was not given adequate guidance through this loan, and was not given the option to read the terms and conditions, as these would have taken her days to complete. Therefore I have to ask if my mum were only presented with the signature page of the terms and conditions, would she have known to view the terms and conditions and is there anything on this page that advises it is one of many others.

The way in which this sale was completed is highly questionable and a copy of the personnel checklist has been sent to the FOS for their viewing, as I feel this was a misrepresented form and if this is found to be the case then I would have to question what and how mum was presented with in this sale.

5a. You also state that you would not want a customer to sign an agreement unless they were happy with it.

Then I have to ask how would a customer know the sale to be a correct and accurate agreement, if they did not have access to their personnel check list or have the knowledge to understand the process. Which is also why I feel my mum signing an agreement that is uncancellable under the consumer credit act to be unfair and irresponsible?

• You advise my mum has had loans in the passed with no problems and so were happy to agree a new loan.

Could it be that as my mum has understood the lending process in the passed then she is expected to understand it forever? My mum’s situation has changed dramatically since she last applied for a loan from your selves. Especially financially and she is now paying £280 more a month for her rent and up to £30 a month on health needs.

Mum now requires much more support mentally and physically from family and friends, which is why I am complaining regarding what I believe to be a miss sold loan.

Mum has also been acknowledged by the state to be living under the financial threshold for a pensioner and is now in the process of receiving housing benefit and pension credit.

Therefore if the state acknowledges mum as needing financial support, I do not see how you had grounds to lend her money, Irrespective of her debit through her overdrafts, of which I strongly believe should have been stopped and addressed accordingly through debit management.

As I have stated above I am extremely unhappy with your response and will now forward a copy of your letter and my reply to the FOS.

I also wish to reiterate my request for a copy of the income and expenditure sheet as completed with mum in the sale of her loan, this is a required sheet with in any loan, and is kept at branch level. I have now requested this 3 times and see your lack of co operation to supply this form as an obstruction against the gathering of evidence for what we believe to be a very necessary and fair complaint.

Yours sincerely

[fuzzywuzzy]

LLOYD'S LATEST REPLY.

 

I am presently Looking into the issues you have raised but i have a number of points i would like to discuss with you before formally replying to you.

 

I shall be great full if you will please telephone me on ........

I am available Monday and Wensday.

I will obviously return your call so you do not have to pay for the call.

 

NOW.. i never discuss anything on the phone, i have n recording facility at this time. I am not sure if i should stick to my guns, or ring them.

 

Any suggestions please.

 

And thank you so much if you have read all Ive posted today:D

 

Fuzzy

[archer_66]

well id be inclined to not phone unless you do purchase recording equipment.put it in writing that you will only discuss this by letter as you will need the proof for if you need to take it further! lol this might shake them up a bit! and say that you will answer all their questions when you receive it in writing .

[fuzzywuzzy]

Thanks Archer

 

I dont want to jepordise our complaint by not ringing, and i am struggling to see what they now wish to discuss, one minute they won't uphold our complaint now they want to discuss it...

 

I think its only fair that i do not have the recording equipment and so will be open to having agreements and disussions abused as per usuall with LLoyds.

 

Im starting to wonder if we are the only ones actually on the forum, seems slow.

F:)

[archer_66]

yea i know what you mean!

well when u call on monday make sure you take down the time and date and person you are speaking too just in case they deny it as if they would!! a law abiding company like that and all! lol

[fuzzywuzzy]

Still considering the letter addressed to me to call. Was just preparing a letter today and they have left a message on mums! answer machine. I guess they are in their rights to call her but i am not happy.

 

Message was

"It is important that you ring Lloyd's re- a personnel matter."

08702424761

 

i know they can not elaborate on this due to leaving details on an open recording but my mum is now worrying.

 

I have had to let her know she is paying her loan each month so nothing can be done regarding the Loan, and her Overdraft could be recalled which we would pay if necessary.

 

I would like them to explain why if this is the case as this is the basis for my argument regarding the amount of debit they have allowed.

 

My guess is it is regarding the Loan dispute, i am thinking they are now concerned... and want to negotiate.. i wont be doing any such thing on the phone but will call tomorrow morning just to confirm the reason.

 

Will up date tomorrow.

Fuzzy

[fuzzywuzzy]

Mum received a worrying message on her phone to call Lloyd's as soon as possible regarding a personnel matter.

 

Turns out to be the collections center.

 

Advising they have removed funds from mums account as a payment was not received.

 

I advised there are no funds available in mums account it is merely an Overdraft limit that they choose to keep after rewriting her overdrafts as a loan.

 

I also advised them We have all the days in a month to pay the loan as long as the payment dates do not over lap the next month.

 

We were due to pay today in the branch so topped up mums account with the amount they removed, we requested that Overdraft to be reduced and were declined as collections now have control.

 

I have been down this route before and am still fighting my own battle 2 years on.

 

They have just basically proved exactly what i have stated to the FOS, the loan was more than mum could afford and they left the Overdrafts knowing she would need them to live on and pay the Loan.

 

FOS went off today

 

Thank you so much for your letter dated 21st August 2007

However I feel it essential that I update a serious concern of actions that occurred today regarding my mums loan and bank account.

As you are aware I am in dispute with this loan on my mum’s behalf and I also receive letters from your selves and Lloyd's to my home address. All parties are aware of this situation.

However when mum received a telephone message “Important you ring Lloyd's on a personal matter” naturally I did so on her behalf and what I discovered was extremely upsetting.

The department phoning mum was the Lloyd's debit collections which would have placed much fear in my mum should she of answered the phone when they rang. They advised me they had removed a loan payment from mums account.

The issue surrounding this loan has been so worrying that we actually canceled all direct debits back in July and mum has relocated to another banking facility.

We had advised at the time of cancellation of the loan Direct Debit that the loan will be paid, but via other means and as I have been informed by the bank we have the time before another monthly payment is due to complete a payment. Lloyd's removed this figure only 17days into the month and with no consultation at all, yet the collection agent insisted they had posted out a letter which is blatantly untrue.

Mums pension is essential for her living costs and I can not allow money to be removed from this prior to her needs being addressed. Therefore once her pension reaches her only then can we carry out calculations and mum with help from the family pays the loan, as she has done with out fail to date.

Sadly the conversation with Collections continued down a rocky path as I was told there were funds in mums account and they had a right to remove them, I informed them there were no funds in my mums account but a readily available overdraft conveniently left after rewriting her last overdrafts.

I insisted this is not money my mum has or owns, and this is what the whole complaint is based on, Lloyd's giving mum unseen money with the heading of an overdraft. Of which Lloyd's is now using to pay the Loan of which mum needed to clear her previous Overdraft of which gave her a false sense of financial security whilst being left to grow to an extensive rate well above her ability to repay.

However we had planned today to pay the loan in branch and so we proceeded to pay the money into mums account to cover the deductions caused by collections, whilst there we requested that the Overdraft amount be lowered to stop this removal of unseen money while the account was in dispute, yet this was denied as the account was with collections.

I had thought what had happened to mum previously was bad enough now this situation is out of control, or rather under Lloyd's control and out of mums own, and a most disgusting way to treat a pensioner

I have stated all along mum could not afford this loan and now Lloyd's have done no less than prove me correct when I stated her overdrafts were never closed as Lloyd's new she would need them to cover this loan.

I am now waiting on correspondence from Mr XXXXXXXXXXXXXX a manager in customer Service recovery who has helped and assisted us today, and is viewing all issues to date. I will forward to you a copy of his letter as soon as readily available.

Yours Sincerely

[archer_66]

fuzzy do you know about the right of appropriation??its a letter that you send every week staing what benefit is coming in and when and what you will need the money for so that in theory they arent allowed to take it.i can find it if youre interested

[gizmo111]

fuzzy do you know about the right of appropriation??its a letter that you send every week staing what benefit is coming in and when and what you will need the money for so that in theory they arent allowed to take it.i can find it if youre interested

 

She has already moved her mum's account.

 

Fuzzy I think what you have here is a clear case of irresponsible lending - SAR the bank for all details relating to the loan - applications, lending criteria etc. In the menatime reduce the od limits to as low as you can so that no more payments can be taken.

[fuzzywuzzy]

She has already moved her mum's account.

 

Fuzzy I think what you have here is a clear case of irresponsible lending - S.A.R - (Subject Access Request) the bank for all details relating to the loan - applications, lending criteria etc. In the meantime reduce the od limits to as low as you can so that no more payments can be taken.

 

Hi archer thanks for the ups on the letter, I have been reading it for a different circumstances but its a brilliant letter and one that I'm sure not enough people know they can use so every post helps

 

Hi Giz, I have done S.A.R - (Subject Access Request) got statements for 6 years this was necessary to show mums assets from her home 3 years ago for the benefits agency, it took them months to comply this is what has held mums benefit claim up so long, thankfully she will be back dated.

 

We will check tomorrow regarding the OD status i have sent my FOS letter to the MR man who is helping in lloyds and I am hoping we can go from there. i also feel lowering the Overdraft facility may not actually heal the problem as the amount can still be withdrawn and an Overdraft charge applied.

 

Naturally i would use there ears for fog horn practice if they did the above.

 

The overdraft could be paid by friends and family but if it is then it shows there is money coming from somewhere, and I will not give them an inch to manipulate as the status at this time shows mums true debit caused by lloyds. They may also assume they can abuse the account more as there would be no debit on it;)

 

I am also going to calculate how many times mum has been overdrawn while paying this loan as her overdraft now could well be made up of mostly loan payments in which case she is no better of months down the line.

 

I will update as quick as i can, its the other end who has square tyres :grin:

 

Oh and im popping to the library tomorrow with mum to get a print out of the recorded books she takes out, admittedly anyone may like to listen to recorded books but its a little bit more of a something showing the position my mum is in. we also can get opticians and surgeons letters from 2 eye operations if necessary.

[fuzzywuzzy]

Mum has just called advising a letter arrived today from this collections department. She is being charged £25 for this action and will be charged £12.50 for each charge there after.

 

Letter dated 19th August better get a copy off to the FOS me thinks;)

[archer_66]

oh my god is there no end to their indiscretions!!!???

i still havent heard ANYTHING about my problem but the fraud number is......08709090951!! lol

[fuzzywuzzy]

Thanks Archer, i have the letter in front of me now the charge is £25 now and then £17.50 , it doesn't say per month or anything like that it just says depending on the length of time it takes to establish an agreement.You will find charges on your statements at least 14 days before we add them.

 

Add them to what? your loan accounts that you are already struggling with? So they take the money from your bank account and then with hold it somewhere for 14 days..?

 

So the £14 comes from peoples overdrafts as i would guess most people with overdrafts are in debit if they are with the collections.

 

this money then turns into money held by Lloyd's instead of owed to Lloyd's and then becomes usable by them for 14 days and earns them interest, it is then added back into your financial box, by being added to your loan and so back under the heading of money owed to Lloyd's.

 

Honestly I'm quiet dim when it comes to banking issues but does that seem right? surely if money is removed from any account to pay a charge ( bill) then it should be transfered immediately?

 

Lloyd's on a con again lol.

 

Any way collections letter going to FOS today, i wouldn't mind so much but mum hasn't missed one payment in any running month.

 

Thanks

F

[fuzzywuzzy]

Well I rang them and broke my own rule and got royaly shafted, no matter how nice these peopel sound on the phone , at the end of the day they looking to have you over,

>>

 

LLoyds are requesting a letter from mums Gp regarding her inability to understand what she was signing and regarding her eye sight.

 

Ive responded saying i don't see why mum should be put under this invasion that will actually cause her great emotional strain.

 

They have still not supplied the I&E and say the matter is closed, and they will not freeze the account in dispute while it is with the FOS.

 

 

I received the outcome of mums benefits claim today, i don't want to place to much detail but actually went through the figures and her weekly amount was well below what they class as living necessity. Now at least she gets a nice back pay. the back pay is 4 figures only over 10 months so you can imagine how little money she actually had coming in

[fuzzywuzzy]

My reply going out today and to FOS.

 

I am sorry that the letter from mum’s GP is not available at this time as I feel a breach of certain parts of mums privacy truly unnecessary for us to uphold are belief that this loan was miss sold. I feel we have more than enough within this complaint and therefore it is not necessary to put my mum through any more emotional strain.

 

I fail to see how a GP’s letter can confirm my mums miss understanding of the Consumer Credit Act, when the fact remains my mum does not know what the Consumer Credit Act is and this is what my complaint is highlighting. If a Lloyd’s employee had pointed out the Consumer Credit Act out to mum as was necessary within the personnel check list, mum may have some ideal of what it actually is, but she does not, therefore I feel you may need to address more deeply the issues I have raised in my previous letters. As even without my mums understanding taken into consideration the loan was still sold inaccurately

 

Regarding mums eyesight, if any person representing us in the future were to advise of an opticians report then this could be a possibility but again at this stage I feel unnecessary, when there are other strong issues unresolved.

 

The question of mums finances and was mum receiving an income to be in the position to have such a loan or to actually be allowed to borrow to the overdraft level that made the loan necessary is becomes ever more important as I have received information from the benefits agency today and find it even harder again to believe this loan was even offered to mum, let alone given.

 

 

 

 

 

I had requested a copy of the I&E sheet used in this loan, with in a face to face meeting with xxx(EDIT) (Branch Manager) back in May 2007. Mr XXX(EDIT) advised my self, my mum, and 1 witness that this would be available but yet my requests to date have been ignored.

 

As you now advise your own involvement with this complaint has come to an end, I need to advise ours has not; therefore it is essential that we receive any paperwork necessary to allow us to move forward with our complaint.

 

I look forward to receiving mums Income and Expenditure sheet within the next 14 days

THANKS CAG BOT I USUAL DO IT FIRST ;-)

[gizmo111]

Fuzzy you after me hon - I have some space now

[fuzzywuzzy]

pmed ;-)

[maggiejtbg]

Good luck fuzzywuzzy keep at it.

LLoydsTSB have alot to answer for, i went in for annual review and came out with a £10,000 loan as a student with a loan of the same amount how on earth could they have calculated that i could of afforded it. I no it was irresponsible of me to accept but they make you feel so happy to be taking their money and YES before long they are banging down your door for repayment.

They need pulling down a few pegs that LLOydsTSB

GOOD LUCK HOPE ALL WORKS OUT WELL!!!!!!

[archer_66]

fuzzy good luck but how frustrating are these people! my mom ha s found an I&E form for one the loans they gave her...it shows the total of disposable income was minus!!! this was after she had said she didnt want a loan as she had enough in her savings to cover what she was asking for.

check ur moms papers to see if its there.mom found hers in a little envelope thingy with the terms and conditions......

[fuzzywuzzy]

Hi maggie

Thankyou for your support they do indeed have a lot to answer for and I will not give up untill this miss sale is exposed.

 

Archer i wish it was the case but no they have the I&E report nice and close to thier chests, just have to find out if we have any right to it and if it is classed as paperwork that they have to keep with them the length of the loan.

 

I have actually been advised by ISA that it is always kept in branch and we could have had a copy of the I&E that very day we had an appointmnet with the Branch Manager.

 

never mined i won't give up ever, and as for not placing it on dispute absolutely disgusting, this is a pensioners income they are playing god with....

[fuzzywuzzy]

OK got photo bucket working on this form, all the ticks above the lats one were made by the salesman.

 

The last one is questionable, it refers to the direct debit authorisation, the direct debit guarantee is on the back.

 

The salesman's pen is all over this form apart from mums own signature which was done in a second pen.

 

This form is so easy to confuse customers with, it must have been made this way on purpose its so unfair.

 

Mum has explained, she remembers signing this form in the belief it was for the Direct Debit Authoristaion only, also had no ideal what the rest of the form held until i told her.

 

she has no ideal what the Consumer credit act is then or now, so she could not of ticked the boxes above to their full meaning and i feel the salesman well and truly knew this at the time.

 

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g313/bls-photos/mumloanchecklist.jpg

 

Does anyone think i should report this for to the OFT?

[fuzzywuzzy]

FOS strike again, they want to know mums financial position now and are over looking her financial position then.

 

Mum has just been allocated benefits and yes she will be better off, a bit..

 

Wants I&E from mum for her status now, not then i said i will send both.

 

Advised any new benefits are untouchable, FOS replied Ive never heard that before?

 

oh well see where we go from here.

 

Was very interested as to why loan still active and not frozen in Dispute, and also the charge for the loan late payment.

 

Not to interested in how the overdrafts were left to rise in the first place.

 

just have to see what happens, i understand both sides have to be treated fairly, but not taking her status iat the time of the loan or inability to read the T&C is something I'm feeling very unfair.

 

Fingers crossed they come back with a fair result, my last interaction with FOS was an absolute nightmare and far from fair.

 

Fuzzy