Discussion about "A short warning thread"

[payingonlyencouragesthem]

I have large debts which have been due to a business that went terribly wrong and a business partner who acted in a less than honest manner. Okay that is not relevant to this, however, over the past 18 months I ran up huge credit card debts (approx 50k) to try and save my business. In the previous 5 years to that I paid each and every credit card on time and in some cases cleared massive balances ( sometimes as much as 15k ) in one lump more than once.

When things went wrong the attitude of the card providers changed overnight and from falling over backwards to help they took a completely different stance and although I tried to explain my position they answered that by letters and constant telephone calls. There was not any human intervention only automatic dialling systems and computers and ''robot'' telephone operators who asked for money and heard nothing else.

My attitude to day is use the law to protect myself as they would use some peoples naievety to scare them into paying and in some cases drive people into more debt and bad health. I expect a lot of people have read about cases of debt leading to suicide and I am sure the banks dont care. It is time to stand up to them and treat them to a taste of their own medicine

 

I think your approach is absolutely correct. I was in the same position (except marital rather than business partner). Ignore the spurious moral arguments and take control.

 

POET

[clairesolo]

its not just the debt that leads to suicide - its the whole stigma too, 6 years on a credit file is too long, I can't get on with my life with my fiance until 2009 because of it, this means no house and putting kids on hold.

[patrickq1]

good advice Andrew though sometimes i speak without thinking ,,,but i am learning through the likes of your advice andrew so i apreciate your advice and threads.i too have a simmallar tale but as you know it can get real dirty my ex partner cleaned me out of my business with a turnover of 3/4 mill in 1991 and property in teneriffe and with the help of his mate the bank manager and slowly but surely i have weaved my way through got the bank manager sacked assistant manager resigned and last but not least my solicitor was struck of for aiding and abetting..all this has been going on since 1992.i have one last hurdle to get over one more bank but it will be a mamoth task even though the bank have admited libel in writing i am also looking at the statute barred defence but sadly because of a contract on my property i cant use the statute barred defence as it was a personal loan to my business but secured on my property.but i too have serious health probs and will be in hospital from oct for twin by pass and then a heart by pass ..so i dont intend doing anything but research at the moment ,funally enough my research is more towards the DPA AND THE FOIa i have quite a collection i am in particular looking for a reference from some gov dept where they(did have it but lost it) are about to disclose an update on the FOIa and the entering of all data from old contracts over six years old that is concerning DPA wether or not you have signed an agreement to allow this. they are intending to give this data to the CRAs

this is in print somewhere on an oficial document ,so if you come accross it would appreciate it thanks patrickq1

[patrickq1]

Department for Constitutional Affairs -

have a read at this andrew

[sosumi]

DCAs work on the assumption you'll feel bad about being in debt.

To be honest, the more experience I have of them, the more I hear of the hurt they like to cause, the less problems I have with any issue about morality.

Let's be right: Debt Collection Agencies are immoral. And creditors handing people over to them are equally to blame for the distress they cause. DCAs are disreputable, grubbing and nasty. They do limbo dances under the Law. I don't know how they don't fall over. They make millions. They make you feel like a criminal when you're not. They think they can get away with it. They're very pleased with themselves.

Frankly, knowing what I know now, I almost want to punch the air when somebody shows us what they're really like. Pretty much everything you see on their Web pages is disproved again and again by people's experiences of them.

I hope we all worry them. They should be very worried.

[andrew0101]

My thoughts are as thus. Use the law and allow a judge to decide if the debt should be paid or not. DCA's etc will use any manner and definitely not all legal to force people to pay. I intend to and have already for the past few months requested CCA's etc and then challenge the banks credit card companies etc to take me to court. I want to get to a stage where a judge says ''Andrew you have to pay that one'' or ''Andrew that one is unenforcebale in law you dont have to pay it'' I intend to use every loophole and angle and possibly build a case around everything in order to make life as hard as possible. I know I already have one unenforceable agreement that does not have one prescribed term on it and another that has a case to argue. The other two cards despite my first request on the 5th June 2007 and follow ups have not responded yet. But I want to bring them all to a head once and for all so I know where I stand.

I also think that if I do go in front of a judge I shall explain from the outset that I am not deliberately trying to avoid paying, however, my aim is to use the law as the law was written as not only I but many thousands of people in this country are fed up of being exploited by underhand institutions who should know better quoting supposed laws at us when infact they are making it up as they go along and making a mockery of the laws of this land.

Let the judges who have studied the law most of their lives see that people in this country value those laws and hope that with that approach the judge ensures the laws of this country are upheld.

( If I save a few quid along the way even better !!! )

I will be as helpful to others on this site as I can, I would like some help along the way as well in preparing cases and skeleton cases in order to fight as hard as I can. I am sure the help will be forthcoming as and when I need it.

 

Andrew

[maybelline]

UK.gov may allow data sharing on 40 million bank accounts | The Register

 

is this any help?

http://www.dti.gov.uk/files/file34513.pdf

[renegotiation]

How about a template A4 advert for CAG in the letters section? Whoever chooses to can print off a load and post them in their local neighbourhood. No cost to anyone bar some well used paper. Publicity guaranteed! I do 100 for sure. I probably do 1000, but best not get ahead of myself. :D Will bring back memories of my paper round. Come on mods.

 

I still dream of a TV ad though...

[w401620]

First post, so greetings to one and all !

 

The problem with a TV ad is when could it be shown ? From what little daytime TV I have seen, it is full of adverts exhorting people to take out loans, so the advertisers ain't gonna be too happy with something advising caution about that very thing ! And the cost at night would, I'd imagine, be quite prohibitive ... so my opinion is to use the most cost-effective form of advertising known to man ... word of mouth. Quite simply, tell anyone and everyone you know about this site, as we all probably have horror stories to tell and share, and hopefully the tide can begin to turn.

 

And then maybe one day Moonhawk's world will be within reach of our children.

[Todge]

Just to pick up on the 'debt avoidance' morality issue.

 

I understand completely about the moral/legal position of the mods of this site. I understand the 'you spent it, now pay it back' argument.

 

When I joined this site, I genuinely believed that I could trust my bank and any member of the financial industry to act with decency, professionalism and compassion - I was looking for advice (after going through a 'rough patch') on the best way to deal with debt, and getting on with things. It was hard work, but I got there - paid back to the penny.

 

Since then, I helped whoever I could while on the site, but work pressures prevented, and eventually halted my involvement.

 

I have helped some close friends and family sort out various issues - some issues linked to this site and others not. This site, incidentally, has never failed to provide what I needed - with a bit of nous and effort, and a pinch of 'get up and fight'.

 

I believe I helped one particular person just in the nick of time. I popped in on an old friend just to catch up and found her in tears slumped on the floor surrounded by DCA letters, threats and demands.

 

Reading through the seemingly countless (50+?) letters, the threats of bailiffs breaking in, of being hauled into court and losing her home, her job, her reputation, and her ultimate fear (due to her impending divorce) of losing her 4 year old daughter had just about been enough for her. The dozen calls a day on her mobile had just about done it. I didn't twig at first, but on her coffee table was an open bottle of pills and a bottle of whisky.

 

On my return after a quick loo visit, the pills and whisky had gone - she had hidden them. And then the penny dropped about what she was contemplating. After nearly three tear-filled (on both sides) hours I got her into a mentally fists up state, we had drafted about a dozen letters/CCA request/income/outgo statements etc. Nearly six months later, she's very nearly sorted out - not too far left to go at all.

 

As far as I am concerned, the gloves are off with the banks, loan companies, 'club book' operators - loan sharks, the lot of them. Vermin, who are unfit to walk God's green earth.

 

If I can help anyone, I will. If it means getting debt written down or written off, then so be it. We are overwhelmed with consumer law, financial guardians, and the whole legal process designed to 'protect'. Most of it is thoroughly useless, as many of you will no doubt have experienced first hand. I have lost all faith in an entire industry with whom I would have previously trusted my life - an industry I genuinely believed may have taken the life of a dearest, sweet friend.

 

If there are any DCA's logged in, and you have any kind of spine whatsoever, then blow the whistle and resign.

 

Either that or burn in hell.

 

Rant over - apologies if this post offends anyones moral sensibilities.

[babybear39]

Thanks for posting that, it moved me to tears

 

No offence taken, it needed to be said.

 

Good for you helping your freind just in time, I wonder how many others don't get that help

[sillygirl1]

Todge's post above shows how the tactics of the DCAs affect people, is it really necessary to send a letter every three days threatening different action and giving you a deadline AFTER the letter has been received to respond?

 

I found this site by accident after a bailiff threatened me and left me shaking, I knew he didnt have anything to go on and I asked him for a copy of the warrant for the debt, the original agreement and his certification and I would get him his money. He failed to produce all three documents so I decided 'RAT will be got'. Had he come up with the documents requested he would have been paid.

[renegotiation]

I honestly believe that those raking in the money don't give a hoot if people die, especially if there's a property to move in on. Those actually making the calls probably don't think about it. There are still probably a few of them that don't give a damn like the money men. Yes, people like this really do exist!

[Allwood]

I have found that when a debt is nearly statued barred then DCA will stop at northing to get you to pay them regardless whether they have the right to do so or not. These organization should be taken to task when ever possible.

 

Also remember that DCA and CRA and banks and other lending institution are all in bed together therefore it makes it very difficult to get the buggers, the all have their backsides covered.

[electron99]

Good post Todge. If someone owed me money and I adopted a fraction of the tactics of Banks and DCA.s, I would be quickly locked up as a racketeer.Banks can get away with it because a) They are very large organisations, and B)They wear suits and talk in posh accents.

[Newborn]

The morality of repaying a debt. I have seen this question posed in one or two threads as people worry that, if by following CAG advice, they are acting immorally.

The first thing that occurs to me is the question of whether morals are absolute, or are there shades of morality. For example, who would you feel more morally obliged to repay: your best friend who lent you his last tenner interest free because you needed it more than him at that moment in time, or the bank who doesn’t actually need the money that lent it to you under a business transaction to make money?

I think that if morality was absolute then 90% of drivers would be presenting themselves every morning to their local police station. To turn themselves in for speeding, licence in hand to be stamped with points and money to pay the fine. Morality is, you see, also selective.

Is it moral to have a commission based financial services sales force highly trained in ‘selling the dream’, and overcoming your initial fears and objections of taking on debt?

Is it moral for these same sale people to be highly trained in how to sell extremely expensive Payment Protection Insurance (PPI) and add it to the loan?

Is it moral that, when the client has paid that PPI for years and needs to use it, the lender uses all the small print it can to get out of parting with the cash?

Is it moral to not point out that if you encounter financial difficulties that you will be dropped like a hot potato into the welcoming arms of a DCA?

Is it moral to quickly sell the debt on as a business transaction, instead of engaging properly with the debtor? After all, in the risk analysis the bank did factor in a percentage of defaults.

Is it moral not to tell you how much your debt was sold for?

Is it moral to sell/buy/chase debt in the full knowledge that no CCA exists?

Is it moral to treat every defaulted debtor in exactly the same way? Those who genuinely fall on hard times are given the same rough ride as the profligate? In any other area of law there are differing sentences etc.

Is it moral that, if you weather the storm and catch up with your payments, your credit record remains scarred? Can you imagine the incentive to repay if the debtor could actually repair their credit rating by reaching certain milestones? How about CCJs falling off the record 1 year after full repayment? Would it not be more moral to give the debtor hope? This would also give something positive for the DCAs to talk about.

To help us through the whole moral maze of life Parliament has, together with the courts, put some laws in place to help our decision making processes. Use the law as written, that is what it is there for. The law is not perfect but continually evolves, the more people that use it the faster it evolves and the better it becomes.

I don’t have the answers, each individual has to weigh up the position in their own mind. I am not perfect, but if I follow the law I like to think that I will generally be somewhere in the right.

One improvement I would like to see is all business creditors being forced to display prominently in branches and on websites the exact route by which debt recovery will be conducted. In my limited experience a lot of problems occur because of ‘burying heads in sand’. This might just be because the poor debtor hasn’t got a clue what is coming next. An open approach would allow a debtor to see the full process together with the options and possibly decide to address the problem earlier. But most of all it would force the lender to publish procedures that would have to be EU compliant and for which they would be accountable.

I believe this may well be something Parliament could easily put in place. The way to get it would be to write to your MP - all of us.

 

Newborn

[renegotiation]

Well said. What strikes me in all this is the 'mindset' of the banks, card companies etc.. They set out to, well, is 'rob' too strong a word? Deliberately confusing conditions, unfair charges, immoral practise (upping your limit without consent for one). They could conduct their business so much better. I think profit maximisation should take a bit of a back seat when it is ****ing up the lives of millions. They hold a privileged and incredibly position within our society. In reality they act like rogue traders you see on the telly robbing your gran. I still can't believe they are arguing the bank charges. Screw the legal argument. Can't like EVERYONE in the whole country see that it is sicker than sick? Why does it even need a damn test case? They should just come clean, apologise to the nation and stop it! Instead they get that Angela Knight mouthpiece to proliferate their lies in our faces. Last thing I heard her say was that they didn't needed to be regulated any more! Ha ha ha. Yeah nice one Angie. Also, why aren't the competition authorities investigating them for charge fixing? Collusion must have gone on. How have they gotten away with it?

[summer30]

So have I just wasted a load of money sending CCA requests recorded delivery with £1 in each?

 

Myself and OH have been drowning with little help for the last 3 years, I was hoping this might be a way to possibly lighten the load, he has already made one suicide attempt and has depression because of all this.

 

We acknowledge the debts but we also didnt ask for 3 redundancies on his part and 1 on mine all in the space of 14 months, bit worried now what advice to take.

 

All I know is we are happy to pay off what we owe, but not when 1/2 of his debt is interest.

[tomterm8]

So have I just wasted a load of money sending CCA requests recorded delivery with £1 in each?

 

Myself and OH have been drowning with little help for the last 3 years, I was hoping this might be a way to possibly lighten the load, he has already made one suicide attempt and has depression because of all this.

 

We acknowledge the debts but we also didnt ask for 3 redundancies on his part and 1 on mine all in the space of 14 months, bit worried now what advice to take.

 

All I know is we are happy to pay off what we owe, but not when 1/2 of his debt is interest.

 

hardly.

 

If they can't provide a credit agreement, and the debt regulated by the consumer credit act 1974 and not exempt from the agreement regulations, then they can't enforce the debt without an agreement in the prescribed form.

 

the thread merely states that although you can't be forced to repay the loan, you also can't force them to repay money you have already paid them.

 

And even then, it's just my opinion, I'm not a lawyer and I might be wrong.

[sosumi]

So have I just wasted a load of money sending CCA requests recorded delivery with £1 in each?

 

Myself and OH have been drowning with little help for the last 3 years, I was hoping this might be a way to possibly lighten the load, he has already made one suicide attempt and has depression because of all this.

 

We acknowledge the debts but we also didnt ask for 3 redundancies on his part and 1 on mine all in the space of 14 months, bit worried now what advice to take.

 

All I know is we are happy to pay off what we owe, but not when 1/2 of his debt is interest.

Why do you say that Summer?

Sending a CCA request is one of the most empowering things you can do. It looks like you've been having a terrible time. If you can, start a new thread on the forum and talk about it. Hubby and I were desperate a couple of years ago, circumstances conspired and we sought help from Payplan, but we still kept getting letters with threats etc. It was only when we found this site that things began to change.

Try and talk to us People here can help - and they do, every single day. You're not on your own here xx

[renegotiation]

So have I just wasted a load of money sending CCA requests recorded delivery with £1 in each?

 

Myself and OH have been drowning with little help for the last 3 years, I was hoping this might be a way to possibly lighten the load, he has already made one suicide attempt and has depression because of all this.

 

We acknowledge the debts but we also didnt ask for 3 redundancies on his part and 1 on mine all in the space of 14 months, bit worried now what advice to take.

 

All I know is we are happy to pay off what we owe, but not when 1/2 of his debt is interest.

 

If you are dealing with a D.C.A. you have already been defaulted. Defaults stay on your credit file for 6 years even if the debts are later satisfied in full. Where sending off C.C.A. requests benefits you is that if the creditors don't comply they can't enforce your debts in court. This was a huge relief for my father. That means they will eventually drop off your already damaged credit file. You could even set about getting these defaults removed, though that isn't easy. It has been done though. Are you suffering from telephone calls by the way?

[renegotiation]

Why do you say that Summer?

Sending a CCA request is one of the most empowering things you can do. It looks like you've been having a terrible time. If you can, start a new thread on the forum and talk about it. Hubby and I were desperate a couple of years ago, circumstances conspired and we sought help from Payplan, but we still kept getting letters with threats etc. It was only when we found this site that things began to change.

Try and talk to us People here can help - and they do, every single day. You're not on your own here xx

 

Yes, start a thread for each single debt you are dealing with. It makes everything much easier to follow. We will all help you!

[summer30]

thanks both of you, we arent doing to bad at the minute, just about paid off all the living arrears like electric etc but OH is left with huge unsecured debts, CCCS dropped him because he refused an IVA and all the others except CAB said the same so we go it alone

 

having CAG though is a god send, we wouldnt know what to have said all those times with these DCAs etc .

[sosumi]

thanks both of you, we arent doing to bad at the minute, just about paid off all the living arrears like electric etc but OH is left with huge unsecured debts, CCCS dropped him because he refused an IVA and all the others except CAB said the same so we go it alone

 

having CAG though is a god send, we wouldnt know what to have said all those times with these DCAs etc .

Know that feeling! It's good you're taking care of the priorities, like utilities etc. xx

[diddydicky]

tv campaign - very bad idea

 

stir up the lion and it will roar

 

once you get hundreds of thousands of people on this bandwagon then the big guys will reach for their big gun lawyers to come up with some big gun solutions

 

gradually build up case law against these buffoons - don't go for the overkill

 

softly softly catchee monkey